If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

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Gadget

Guest
Hmm. Why does this feel like its going around in circles? The old "I" wants to reject him. But the new "i wants to draw near. That then posses the question how did you get tge new "I" before you found jesus and gained the new "I"?

Also no matter what we do,say, or think of our free will, if its agaist god, then why did he give it to us in tge first place? Sounds like he designed us to be kicked out the door and if we stop for even a fraction of a second to ponder what just hapoen. Then we fail the test. Am i missing something?
 

Ella85

Senior Member
May 9, 2014
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Hmm. Why does this feel like its going around in circles? The old "I" wants to reject him. But the new "i wants to draw near. That then posses the question how did you get tge new "I" before you found jesus and gained the new "I"?

Also no matter what we do,say, or think of our free will, if its agaist god, then why did he give it to us in tge first place? Sounds like he designed us to be kicked out the door and if we stop for even a fraction of a second to ponder what just hapoen. Then we fail the test. Am i missing something?
Hi Gadget, Looks like you are new here.

Do you read your bible? Do you have a basic understanding of what free will means?
 
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Gadget

Guest
Ello thank you for the welcome. :)

Yes i have read the bible but there is still some confussion about this frer will aspect. It is just one of the many questions i have. However ive stayed tgose questions for the time being until i do anoyher bible readthru. However since the topic was brought up i thought i would add my own minds worth. :)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I really don't understand why it is so hard for some people to understand how salvation works.
That salvation is by grace through faith and not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. Human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

When you decide to become a Christian what do you do???
Continue down the road that you were on???
Or make a consciences decision to do what is right by the Lord?
When one makes the decision to change their old sinful ways then all the rest will come naturally.
When someone is baptised it is a decision to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord and continue in their walk with Jesus.
Christians/Believers are new creations in Christ. We have been changed! Praise God! Changing our old sinful ways, getting water baptized and continuing to walk with Jesus is not forced or legalistic for genuine Christians.

Originally Posted by SeaBass
That is the point..WORKS determine if one will be saved or not.
Some people think it's ALL about works and can't figure out that in Romans 2:6-10, the specific deeds are spelled out and ALL who will receive eternal life (Christians/Believers) are described as such - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, everyone who does good. Also, ALL who will not receive eternal life (non-Christians/unbelievers) are described as such - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, everyone who does evil. There is no third camp of Christians/Believers who fall into the latter category or non-Christians/unbelievers who fall into the former category, so it's not all about works, but these deeds mentioned demonstrate and determine whether a person was saved and will receive eternal life or not.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
No it is not hard to understand.
The problem is that people take the scripture from Galatians out of context. In that book when it is referring to not of works, it is talking about works of the law. Following and obeying the mosaic law for salvation, there is no salvation in following the law. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and following and obeying Him.



That salvation is by grace through faith and not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. Human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

Christians/Believers are new creations in Christ. We have been changed! Praise God! Changing our old sinful ways, getting water baptized and continuing to walk with Jesus is not forced or legalistic for genuine Christians.

Some people think it's ALL about works and can't figure out that in Romans 2:6-10, the specific deeds are spelled out and ALL who will receive eternal life (Christians/Believers) are described as such - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, everyone who does good. Also, ALL who will not receive eternal life (non-Christians/unbelievers) are described as such - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, everyone who does evil. There is no third camp of Christians/Believers who fall into the latter category or non-Christians/unbelievers who fall into the former category, so it's not all about works, but these deeds mentioned demonstrate and determine whether a person was saved and will receive eternal life or not.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No it is not hard to understand.
The problem is that people take the scripture from Galatians out of context. In that book when it is referring to not of works, it is talking about works of the law. Following and obeying the mosaic law for salvation, there is no salvation in following the law. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and following and obeying Him.
so your telling me that no OT person could ever be saved?

and do you understand why we could not be saved by the law. I think paul makes it clear. what does the law do to us, which is not good for us?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hmm. Why does this feel like its going around in circles? The old "I" wants to reject him. But the new "i wants to draw near. That then posses the question how did you get tge new "I" before you found jesus and gained the new "I"?

Also no matter what we do,say, or think of our free will, if its agaist god, then why did he give it to us in tge first place? Sounds like he designed us to be kicked out the door and if we stop for even a fraction of a second to ponder what just hapoen. Then we fail the test. Am i missing something?
if you had no free will, you could never have a relationship with God. That is why he gave us free will.

he proved his love and desire to have a relationship with us by what he did on the cross..

as far as failing the test. we all have, so we are all in the same boat. no one has passed the test, ond no one ever will.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No it is not hard to understand.
The problem is that people take the scripture from Galatians out of context. In that book when it is referring to not of works, it is talking about works of the law. Following and obeying the mosaic law for salvation, there is no salvation in following the law.
So which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from the moral aspect of the law which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:8; Matthew 22:37-40). Are you saying that we are not saved by specific works under the law but we are saved by good works in general which are detached from the moral aspect of the law?

Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and following and obeying Him.
Do Christians follow and obey Christ because they are saved or in order to become saved? Which is cause and which is effect?
 
Jun 30, 2011
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Ello thank you for the welcome. :)

Yes i have read the bible but there is still some confussion about this frer will aspect. It is just one of the many questions i have. However ive stayed tgose questions for the time being until i do anoyher bible readthru. However since the topic was brought up i thought i would add my own minds worth. :)

Hi gadget - I would say that man's will is fallen - broken, man's will is not sovereign, man's will is not his hope just some things to think about
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
So which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from the moral aspect of the law which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:8; Matthew 22:37-40). Are you saying that we are not saved by specific works under the law but we are saved by good works in general which are detached from the moral aspect of the law?

Do Christians follow and obey Christ because they are saved or in order to become saved? Which is cause and which is effect?

Once again that is what I am saying. You must be able to understand the difference between the God's moral laws that were evident in the mosaic laws, and the written ordinances of the mosaic laws.
In the mosaic laws you had food ordinances, cleaning ordinances, you had specific punishments that were allowed for certain sins committed, and plus you had your sacrifice rituals for sins.
None of these or other written ordinances of the mosaic law do we follow by any more. We are not under the law, and we are not held to follow it. Thus salvation does not come from trying to follow it, or keep it.

Salvation only comes from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through our faith in Him. By our faith and trust we follow Him, and obey His teaching. People say faith alone is what saves, but the problem with that is that if you say you have faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but you do not repent of your sins. You still are not saved.
Jesus makes it clear that if you do not repent of your sins then you will perish, and that if you do not confess Him before others, He will deny you before the Father. He also makes it very clear that if you love Him, as in follow the greatest commandment to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, then you will keep and obey His commandments. Those who do not are not His, and have no salvation.

Faith and works go hand and hand with each other. One without the other is a dead faith that does not lead to salvation.

Example again:

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but do not repent of sins = no salvation

If you have good works, but do not have faith in the Lord = no salvation
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Once again that is what I am saying. You must be able to understand the difference between the God's moral laws that were evident in the mosaic laws, and the written ordinances of the mosaic laws.
In the mosaic laws you had food ordinances, cleaning ordinances, you had specific punishments that were allowed for certain sins committed, and plus you had your sacrifice rituals for sins. None of these or other written ordinances of the mosaic law do we follow by any more. We are not under the law, and we are not held to follow it. Thus salvation does not come from trying to follow it, or keep it.
Yet the moral aspect of the law is also included in the law and still constitutes works. Paul said that we are not saved by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. Are you trying to limit these works to merely the ceremonial aspect of the law but then say we are saved by good works in general that fall under the moral aspect of the law? I'm not seeing where Paul is saying that.

Salvation only comes from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, through our faith in Him.
Amen!

By our faith and trust we follow Him, and obey His teaching.
Faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Obeying Him afterwards is works. Many people confuse faith with obedience that follows, WORKS and simply say that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. Faith is the root of salvation and following Him/obeying His teaching afterwards is the fruit of salvation. No following, no obeying afterwards demonstrates that we have a dead faith.

People say faith alone is what saves, but the problem with that is that if you say you have faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but you do not repent of your sins. You still are not saved.
Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation saves, but not an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works). Those with genuine faith have repented. Repentance and faith are inseparable in salvation.

Jesus makes it clear that if you do not repent of your sins then you will perish, and that if you do not confess Him before others, He will deny you before the Father.
If we never repented then we don't have faith. Believers confess Him before others because they are saved, not to become saved. Believers confess Him, unbelievers deny Him.

He also makes it very clear that if you love Him, as in follow the greatest commandment to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, then you will keep and obey His commandments. Those who do not are not His, and have no salvation.
We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Believers receive the love of God by the Holy Spirit who was given to them (Romans 5:5). Saving faith is manifest by works in the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Those works are expressions of the love in which the Spirit pours into the believer's heart.

Faith and works go hand and hand with each other. One without the other is a dead faith that does not lead to salvation.
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.

Example again:

If you say you have faith in the Lord, but do not repent of sins = no salvation

If you have good works, but do not have faith in the Lord = no salvation
No repentance, no good works = empty profession of faith, not genuine faith. Good works without faith are not genuine good works. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Hmm. Why does this feel like its going around in circles? The old "I" wants to reject him. But the new "i wants to draw near. That then posses the question how did you get tge new "I" before you found jesus and gained the new "I"?

Also no matter what we do,say, or think of our free will, if its agaist god, then why did he give it to us in tge first place? Sounds like he designed us to be kicked out the door and if we stop for even a fraction of a second to ponder what just hapoen. Then we fail the test. Am i missing something?
Hi Gadget my statement may or may not add to your confusion...but I pray that you understand .....Freedom is not the ability to do what you want to do ...freedom is the ability to do what you ought to do....God has made it possible for us to exercise that freedom... The goodness of God leads us to repentance....He sent his word that we may have faith....we ought to obey...God has provided for us everything that pertains to life and godliness....we ought to seek them out...God has given his Son not only as a sacrifice for our sins but as an example for us to follow....we ought to follow him...The only I you ought to respond to is the I in ChrIst...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I really don't understand why it is so hard for some people to understand how salvation works.

When you decide to become a Christian what do you do???
Continue down the road that you were on???
Or make a consciences decision to do what is right by the Lord?

When one makes the decision to change their old sinful ways then all the rest will come naturally.

When someone is baptised it is a decision to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord and continue in their walk with Jesus.
Amen and I agree.....especially on immersion which is an act of obedience by one who is already a saved child of God....it simply states to the world that you have believed and trusted into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and have identified yourself with Christ in his resurrection while being disassociated from the world.....AMEN!
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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The answer to the OP can be resolved with what happened to Adam; We as believers are in the same status as was Adam.
 

Ella85

Senior Member
May 9, 2014
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Amen and I agree.....especially on immersion which is an act of obedience by one who is already a saved child of God....it simply states to the world that you have believed and trusted into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and have identified yourself with Christ in his resurrection while being disassociated from the world.....AMEN!
Yes agree for sure :)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Yes, God did everything in His power to make a way for the whole world to be with Him forever. It's the Great Invitation. Jesus said, "I stand at the door and knock." We must believe Him enough to open the door and let Him come in.
...and in this context Christ was speaking to those who were in the church but had put Christ out of His own church. Their role was to repent or perish, Rev 3:19 cf Lk 13:3,5.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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You cannot know the wonderful gift God has given if you do not take it out of the box and use it.

The more you study Gods word the more that is revealed of the great gift God has given to those who trust His Son for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Salvation must be "taken out of the box" and worked for it will not save if left in the box not worked.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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My comment


The "working out' is the process by which an unregenerate human comes to the realization of the need to be saved and responds accordingly .... to make the choice to be saved by grace through faith alone

This first essential initial step is a very difficult struggle for most humans to grasp and comply

One cannot "work" for this, but must accept it by faith with no evidence of the same .... and there are no works involved

Faith first .... and good works will follow

Jn 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He gives. Man's role is to work for this free gift of everlasting life Christ gives.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Good works demonstrate that one has been saved through faith (fruit of faith) and will receive eternal life and evil works (fruit of unbelief) demonstrate that one has not been saved through faith and will not receive eternal life. Everyone who does good is a description of ALL saved believers. Everyone who does evil is a description of ALL lost unbelievers. The context of Romans 2 relates to the judgment of God and when judgment is the subject, the stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on faith from which these works follow. Make no mistake, we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Faith only - per James - is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-20). Faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation is alive in Christ/created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Not the same faith. One is alive and one is dead. The works or lack of works bears witness to this.

You just gave a description of those who are lost and those who are saved. Are those who obey righteousness, obey the truth, do good, accomplish this from a lost condition or a saved condition? Do lost unbelievers or saved believers obey righteousness, obey the truth, do good throughout their life?

Paul is giving a description of those who are saved and will receive eternal life and those who are lost and will not receive eternal life. Again, faith only - per James - is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith that is alive in Christ and results in obedience/doing good.

Again,
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

FALSE. In James 2:21, n
otice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was by works "shown to be righteous."

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" and it's the same with Abraham.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.

The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is discussing the proof of faith (James 2:21), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

We obey from the heart when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). For with the heart one believes unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) BEFORE any works of obedience that follow are accomplished. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). Good works follow justification/salvation and are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

Faith is not no particular reason. The object of our faith is Christ's finished work of redemption, but that is not good enough for you so you turn to supplements "water and works" in a vain effort to help Jesus save you. How long will you refuse to repent and believe the gospel?

Amen!

Where do you see the word CONTINUES TO NOT? Is that the Alexander Campbell translation? 1 John 3:10 -
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest/evident/obvious: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Just the opposite. John's words make it IMPOSSIBLE for one to practice righteousness unless he is a child of God. Children of the devil DO NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS. Your self righteous true colors are really showing.
:eek:

I NEVER said that a righteous person continues to do unrighteousness. 1 John 3:9 -
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:10). Does that sound like continues to do unrighteousness to you?

False. Contrary to works righteousness, man must first be accounted as righteous through faith in order to do righteous works. You have it backwards because you teach works salvation, which is no salvation at all.

There is no category for one who believes but does no works because that is an oxymoron. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Contradiction to Romans 2:6? Good deeds show (are the demonstrative evidence) that one has been saved from the penalty of sin through faith (Justification) and will be saved from the presence of sin (Glorification). Evil deeds show (are the demonstrative evidence) that one has not been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification) and will not be saved from the presence of sin (Glorfication).

You post "Good works demonstrate that one has been saved through faith (fruit of faith) and will receive eternal life..."

So lack of works demonstrate one has not been saved therefore making works a necessary part of salvation.

You post "
Faith only - per James - is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-20)"

Why is faith only not genuine? It has no works, making works a necessary part of having a genuine faith that saves.


You post "You just gave a description of those who are lost and those who are saved. Are those who obey righteousness, obey the truth, do good, accomplish this from a lost condition or a saved condition?"

No one is saved while they continue to NOT do righteousness, 1 Jn 3:10. Salvation is not possible until one FIRST does righteousness. So it's not possible for one to first be saved, then obey.
Acts 10:35 one must first work righteousness to be accepted with God.

What one does determines what he is:
If one does unrighteousness then he is unrighteous as Cain 1 Jn 3:12
If one does righteousness then he is righteous 1 Jn 3:7


Eze 18:21,22,23 "
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?."

Order of events:
1) wicked
2) turn from sins and keep statutes, do lawful, right
3) then lives

The wicked does not for some unknown, magical reason first live then do righteousness by turning and keeping God's statutes and doing right. He must FIRST turn THEN live not live then turn as faith onlyists always try to reverse this wanting him to first live then turn.

Eze 18:24,26 "
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die....When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."

It was his doing righteousness that made him righteousness and his NOT doing, turning from doing righteousness is why is trespasses and dies.

Eze 18:27 "
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

The wicked FIRST obeys by turning from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness then he shall his soul alive.

It's NOT he shall save his soul alive then obey by doing righteousness.

Note it says "
he shall save his soul" How can one save his own soul? By doing his role in his own salvation by turning from doing unrighteousness to doing which is lawful/doing righteousness.

That is why Paul says God renders to every man according to his DEEDS. For one's DEEDS determines if he saves his soul alive or not.

Therefore OBEDIENT works precede being saved and after one is saved he must do good owrks to maintain his salvation.

 
Mar 12, 2014
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Did you read the rest of what I posted - Just let them live in ignorance - then that is true freedom then isn't it - - I could even post scripture for you!

by telling them, are you not trying to change them? in fact is that not trying to change their will? But it's free, if you put a burden on them, that doesn't make their will free any more does it?

Ignorance causes people to be lost. People are lost due to their sins and not lost for not having heard (being ignorant of) the gospel.

Eze 33:8,9 "When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul."

If one does not warn the wicked of his way, then the wicked mans blood is upon thine hand.

I can present the gospel to someone but I cannot change them for that is a choice they must make to change themselves. But if I warn the wicked and he does not change, he shall die in his iniquity and I have delivered my soul.