I must have responded to a half dozen or so of these works heresy threads, and each time you works guys are NEVER quite able to tell me the "works" the thief on the cross did in order to be in paradise with Jesus on that day AS JESUS PROMISED HIM! All he did was confess his sin and believe on jesus.
Works and Salvation
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I must have responded to a half dozen or so of these works heresy threads, and each time you works guys are NEVER quite able to tell me the "works" the thief on the cross did in order to be in paradise with Jesus on that day AS JESUS PROMISED HIM! All he did was confess his sin and believe on jesus.
K
They will say that he must have been baptized by John, but then why was he a thief? Go figure. The fact is that man is stuck own self and being his own God that they will go to lengths and bounds to justify it. Only fooling them self.
Bless God I can do it and by my own strength I am saved. But that won't cut the mustard come judgement day.
If I see the blood I will pass over you.
Bless God I can do it and by my own strength I am saved. But that won't cut the mustard come judgement day.
If I see the blood I will pass over you.
K
The difference is that call falls on the Lord.
He said He will have mercy on who He will have mercy. He can and does in my mind make an exception to those who come to Him at the last minutes of their life.
Those of us who live a long enough life believing in Him are told to obey and keep His commandments.
Lord Jesus tells us the works that would be evident in a believers life, and if they are not there then the truth still is not in them.
Why when your question is answered, if it is not the answer you want to hear, then you claim your question was not answered?
What makes you think someone is afraid of you putting them on your ignore list? does that make you feel you are right?
You think if one has faith and that faith does not produce good works, then they really never had faith,
When the Lord told Peter to walk out on the water with Him, Peter did, that took faith no matter what you say, then Peter was afraid because he was just a man, and began to sink, Jesus called that "little faith" but according to you, he never had any, as newbirth said, you speak out both sides of your mouth.
What makes you think someone is afraid of you putting them on your ignore list? does that make you feel you are right?
You think if one has faith and that faith does not produce good works, then they really never had faith,
When the Lord told Peter to walk out on the water with Him, Peter did, that took faith no matter what you say, then Peter was afraid because he was just a man, and began to sink, Jesus called that "little faith" but according to you, he never had any, as newbirth said, you speak out both sides of your mouth.
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You fail to understand that it does not matter if the thief was baptized or not, Jesus was alive, He was given the authority to forgive anyone He wished, however after His death, HIS law became in effect, He could not save someone without that someone obeying His own law, expecting other to do so, and be just.
Hebrews 7:12 (NKJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
You and others on this forum have been shown the thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation.
Hebrews 7:12 (NKJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
You and others on this forum have been shown the thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation.
Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
was the thief on the cross before pentecost or after?Jesus Christ had power to forgive sins when he was on earth...even while on the cross...after his resurrection he commanded his disciples what they must do and teach...now anyone with half a brain will know the thief on the cross died before they got those instructions...so to ask how the thief followed those instruction is a clear indication of ignorance or folly...
This might seem to be a silly question But can one even repent before God if one DOES NOT HAVE FAITH to begin with? How can one repent and have it pleasing to God if one doesn't have faith? Doesn't scripture also say this?
Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This is what the ancients were commended for.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[SUP][a][/SUP] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. [SUP]6[/SUP]And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
So again How can anyone even repent and have it being acceptable to God if one does not have FAITH in the first place?
And How can any works that ARE NOT OUT of faith ever please God either? And on the other hand you can not have a saving faith if one does NOT DO. It can only be separated as far as what is at the heart of it all is faith,without faith we can do NOTHING to please God,it is at the root. But at the same time it can not be an INACTIVE OR DEAD FAITH. Faith is always described as being ACTIVE and alive. You can not separate works from an active faith,it is NOT POSSIBLE.
Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This is what the ancients were commended for.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[SUP][a][/SUP] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. [SUP]6[/SUP]And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
So again How can anyone even repent and have it being acceptable to God if one does not have FAITH in the first place?
And How can any works that ARE NOT OUT of faith ever please God either? And on the other hand you can not have a saving faith if one does NOT DO. It can only be separated as far as what is at the heart of it all is faith,without faith we can do NOTHING to please God,it is at the root. But at the same time it can not be an INACTIVE OR DEAD FAITH. Faith is always described as being ACTIVE and alive. You can not separate works from an active faith,it is NOT POSSIBLE.
The whole thing comes down to one question What makes up saving faith? Can one really say they have saving faith if they do not love their brothers and sisters whom they have seen? Can one say they have saving faith if one does not obey? Can one say their are saved if sin is not being broken in their lives?
He was a penitent thief, you must not have read the post so I posted it again :
You fail to understand that it does not matter if the thief was baptized or not, Jesus was alive, He was given the authority to forgive anyone He wished, however after His death, HIS law became in effect, He could not save someone without that someone obeying His own law, expecting other to do so, and be just.
Hebrews 7:12 (NKJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
You and others on this forum have been shown the thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation.
He was no more under the Law of Christ than Moses, not under the Christian dispensation yet you try to make him as though he were.
Christ saved this man while under the Mosaic dispensation, the new law (testament) requires the death of the testator,
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
after Christ died (after he saved the thief) He could not save the thief and be just
The thief is not an example of NT salvation!
You fail to understand that it does not matter if the thief was baptized or not, Jesus was alive, He was given the authority to forgive anyone He wished, however after His death, HIS law became in effect, He could not save someone without that someone obeying His own law, expecting other to do so, and be just.
Hebrews 7:12 (NKJV)
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
You and others on this forum have been shown the thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation.
He was no more under the Law of Christ than Moses, not under the Christian dispensation yet you try to make him as though he were.
Christ saved this man while under the Mosaic dispensation, the new law (testament) requires the death of the testator,
Hebrews 9:16 (NKJV)
For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
after Christ died (after he saved the thief) He could not save the thief and be just
The thief is not an example of NT salvation!
E
then how can you say they were ever saved to begin with?
One can claim they have faith until their blue in the faith, if they do not have faith, it will be shown.
People who do not have faith do religious works all the time, are you going to tell me they are, or have ever been saved? What separates the licentious from the legalist, and where does faith come in the middle?
There is not more than one gospel. their is one, Everyone is saved the same way, otherwise God is a respecter of persons, and paul lied in galations 1
One can claim they have faith until their blue in the faith, if they do not have faith, it will be shown.
People who do not have faith do religious works all the time, are you going to tell me they are, or have ever been saved? What separates the licentious from the legalist, and where does faith come in the middle?
There is not more than one gospel. their is one, Everyone is saved the same way, otherwise God is a respecter of persons, and paul lied in galations 1
E
If you think my question was answered. your as lost as he was.
I asked for time how someone could claim they trusted their father (had faith in him) yet never did a thing his father said.
His argument is everyone has faith who has heard. for faith comes by hearing, yet in my example. the child hear, if faith comes by hearing, where is the childs faith? He never obeyes his dad. does he have faith in him?
Maybe you can answer?
I do not care what they think. I want to discuss the word of God. and if people are going to continue to do the same things over and over, it is not worth even looking at what they say and be tempted to continue to hash out the same old arguments,
You never see sea bass or newbirth in any thread except faith and works and baptismal threads. They have a mission, and never want to discuss anythign else. So why bother giving them an audience?
well that is what James says, That is what Paul says (saved by grace through faith, not works, created for good works in Christ) if someone does not have the works Paul claimed they would in Eph 2: 10, they never had the faith in 2: 8-9. thus they were never saved.
Yep he did. Why? He had faith, even faith of a mustard seed can do work. it is a trust.
If peter did not have faith, (if he had a dead or non existant faith) we would never have had that story, because peter never would have even tried. Faith causes works. even if it is just a little faith, it will at least try.
Thanks, you just proved my point.
I asked for time how someone could claim they trusted their father (had faith in him) yet never did a thing his father said.
His argument is everyone has faith who has heard. for faith comes by hearing, yet in my example. the child hear, if faith comes by hearing, where is the childs faith? He never obeyes his dad. does he have faith in him?
Maybe you can answer?
I do not care what they think. I want to discuss the word of God. and if people are going to continue to do the same things over and over, it is not worth even looking at what they say and be tempted to continue to hash out the same old arguments,
You never see sea bass or newbirth in any thread except faith and works and baptismal threads. They have a mission, and never want to discuss anythign else. So why bother giving them an audience?
well that is what James says, That is what Paul says (saved by grace through faith, not works, created for good works in Christ) if someone does not have the works Paul claimed they would in Eph 2: 10, they never had the faith in 2: 8-9. thus they were never saved.
Yep he did. Why? He had faith, even faith of a mustard seed can do work. it is a trust.
If peter did not have faith, (if he had a dead or non existant faith) we would never have had that story, because peter never would have even tried. Faith causes works. even if it is just a little faith, it will at least try.
Thanks, you just proved my point.
I had faith in my father, I trusted if I obeyed him I would be okay, I also trusted (had faith in him) that if I did not obey him I would face his wrath. so how does that help you with your erring POV.
If I never knew my father, how could I have faith in him? but if I knew him I would have faith in him, what mattered is what "accompanied" that faith, if it was obedience I had faith my father would love and take care of me, if I was not obedient I had faith my father would punish me, either way I had faith, what mattered is what made my father happy, my obedient works, or disobedient works.
I did, but it is not what you wanted to hear so eventually you will block me, then it will bother you because it will not stop me from replying to your posts, only that you cannot see them... which is fine because it is others I hope to reach besides you.
Yet here you are, in those same threads. their mission is the same the Lord gave the apostles, I will underline part for emphasis:
Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Notice the "disciples" were instructed to "baptize" and told to teach them to "observe all things". ("faith alone" or "observe all things" which do you see in there?)
You and others take Paul out of context, In Eph 2:8-9 Paul it telling Jews that the Mosaic law (he here calls the Mosaic Law "works") will not save you, Eph. 2:10 is in agreement with James, you cannot have faith without righteous works, period.
I proved your point to be in error, Peter had "faith" before he stepped out of the boat, but until he stepped out of the boat, his faith was dead, so faith without works he never would walk on water, as his faith began to fail, he began to sink, so faith and works must be hand in hand, inseparable!
If I never knew my father, how could I have faith in him? but if I knew him I would have faith in him, what mattered is what "accompanied" that faith, if it was obedience I had faith my father would love and take care of me, if I was not obedient I had faith my father would punish me, either way I had faith, what mattered is what made my father happy, my obedient works, or disobedient works.
I did, but it is not what you wanted to hear so eventually you will block me, then it will bother you because it will not stop me from replying to your posts, only that you cannot see them... which is fine because it is others I hope to reach besides you.
Yet here you are, in those same threads. their mission is the same the Lord gave the apostles, I will underline part for emphasis:
Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Notice the "disciples" were instructed to "baptize" and told to teach them to "observe all things". ("faith alone" or "observe all things" which do you see in there?)
You and others take Paul out of context, In Eph 2:8-9 Paul it telling Jews that the Mosaic law (he here calls the Mosaic Law "works") will not save you, Eph. 2:10 is in agreement with James, you cannot have faith without righteous works, period.
I proved your point to be in error, Peter had "faith" before he stepped out of the boat, but until he stepped out of the boat, his faith was dead, so faith without works he never would walk on water, as his faith began to fail, he began to sink, so faith and works must be hand in hand, inseparable!
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Just a quick question though would the thief on the cross have been saved if he did NOT do this?
John 6
[SUP]25 [/SUP]When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Mark 1
[SUP]14 [/SUP]After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
Luke 13
13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? [SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? [SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
E
this is exactly what I mean, I did not ask if you trusted your faither or not. I asked if someone said they trusted their father, but did not do a thing his father said, did they really have faith in their father at all? or was their claim of trusting )faith) in their father nothing but alot of hot air?
You still did not answer the question. The question is does a person who says he has faith in his father, but never obeys him, is he a liar when he says he has faith, or is his faith real (not dead)
Yes you tried to answer, except you either misunderstood my question or something, Although you did do better than he did, He did not even try. which is why I ignored him. As long as you discuss and at least try, I am not going to ignore. you. Maybe this you do not understand either?
See, I will give you an opportunity. Sea Bass and New Birth will lie and decieve and say I do not even believe any of those things.
I agree with everything Jesus said.
1. I go an try to make disciples
2. Once a person receives Christ (making himself a disciple) I either offer to baptise them, or ask them to go get baptized, and if they do not, then I will chasten them
3. I spend hours teaching them (and myself) to obey all things jesus said.
so I am not sure of your point. Will you be like those two men, and say I am a liar, or will you admit you were wrong about my belief?
Paul is speaking to the ephesian church, Not a bunch of jews. he does not even mention the law. It is you and others who take paul out of context and ADD THE word law to works. Ephesians 1 and 2 all speak of our position in christ and how we got there. the focus is not the law. it is on faith in Christ.
And I agree. Eph 2: 10 is paul saying if you have faith, you will do the works God created you to do.
James said if you do not have the works Paul said you will have in eph 2: 10, your faith was dead, you were a liar. you never had faith at all.
lol..See what I mean about twisting things? If peters faith was dead BEFORE he stepped out He never would have stepped out to begin with. It took a living breathing faith to get him to take the first step towards the edge of the boat. A dead faith never would have taken the first step.
You still did not answer the question. The question is does a person who says he has faith in his father, but never obeys him, is he a liar when he says he has faith, or is his faith real (not dead)
Yes you tried to answer, except you either misunderstood my question or something, Although you did do better than he did, He did not even try. which is why I ignored him. As long as you discuss and at least try, I am not going to ignore. you. Maybe this you do not understand either?
See, I will give you an opportunity. Sea Bass and New Birth will lie and decieve and say I do not even believe any of those things.
I agree with everything Jesus said.
1. I go an try to make disciples
2. Once a person receives Christ (making himself a disciple) I either offer to baptise them, or ask them to go get baptized, and if they do not, then I will chasten them
3. I spend hours teaching them (and myself) to obey all things jesus said.
so I am not sure of your point. Will you be like those two men, and say I am a liar, or will you admit you were wrong about my belief?
Paul is speaking to the ephesian church, Not a bunch of jews. he does not even mention the law. It is you and others who take paul out of context and ADD THE word law to works. Ephesians 1 and 2 all speak of our position in christ and how we got there. the focus is not the law. it is on faith in Christ.
And I agree. Eph 2: 10 is paul saying if you have faith, you will do the works God created you to do.
James said if you do not have the works Paul said you will have in eph 2: 10, your faith was dead, you were a liar. you never had faith at all.
lol..See what I mean about twisting things? If peters faith was dead BEFORE he stepped out He never would have stepped out to begin with. It took a living breathing faith to get him to take the first step towards the edge of the boat. A dead faith never would have taken the first step.