When does the rapture occur?

Straightshot · Nov 27, 2014

My comments

Satan has wrath .... always has .... and he will intensify because he will know that his time is short in the tribulation

But the Lord's wrath is far greater and the purpose of His coming judgment will not only be for punishing the unbelieving nations, but to defeat Satan's folly in the process

..... even to the extent of using the devil to destroy the "great city" of MBG at the very beginning [Revelation 8:6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

The Lord is the commander His own vengeance [not Satan] and His angels will herald His judgments as they fall from the very beginning of the coming tribulation to the ending [Psalms 2]

This week of the 70th decreed for Israel will last for 2550 days [1260 +1260] + 30 .... all of the Lord's doing ... not Satan's ..... Satan will only be the Lord's dupe

And the Lord's true ecclesia living at the time will He snatch away to immortality just before [Revelation 3:10]

In addition, it will be those of the Middle Eastern populations of the Muslims that He will bring against Israel .... and then destroy them at Armageddon in 30 days [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 2:40-43; 9:27; 11:41; 11:45; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-6; Obadiah 1:1-21; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

.... then He will appear to the mortal survivors and separate them, those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

Is the current setting in the Middle East described in the visions of the prophets .... yes

Is ISIL the beginning of the beast's 6th Middle Eastern kingdom .... very possible [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6 .... looks very much like the setting in the prophet scriptures

Time will tell

4enlightment · Nov 27, 2014

Revelation 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. (This verse sound like to me that when we die, e goes straight to Heaven.)

Matthew 18:12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? (This verse sound like the Shepherd will leave the ones that went to heaven, to gather up some more of the lost sheep.)

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Matthew 13:48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.

Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection (Resurrected from their old ways). 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

PlainWord · Nov 27, 2014

Pretty close except for the above. The words used are "keep you from" not "snatch you away." There is no passage that teaches a snatching away or taking away to heaven to avoid the Tribulation. God is more than capable of protecting a group from trouble without taking them off the planet.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The 7 churches of Revelation 2-3 are all in Turkey. It is Turkey that will be the 8th Beast empire, just as the Ottoman Empire was the 7th (1299 - 1922). The Ottoman Empire was mortally wounded and then will come back to life. The Ottoman Empire was the first to have a break in succession as the previous 6 Beast empires were progressive without break.

The seat of Satan is located in Turkey at Pergomos which is closest to Istanbul, formerly Constantinople.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.

The church of Philadelphia will be "kept from" the trial or test that will come to the whole world.

Straightshot · Nov 27, 2014

" There is no passage that teaches a snatching away or taking away to heaven to avoid the Tribulation."

Don't be ignorant .... there is for sure

1 Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be "caught up" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
[TABLE="width: 606"]
[TR]
[TD]Transliteration
harpazō
[/TD]
[TD]Pronunciation
här-pä'-zō (Key)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Part of Speech
verb
[/TD]
[TD]Root Word (Etymology)
From a derivative of αἱρέω (G138)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:472,80

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

[*=left]to seize, carry off by force

[*=left]to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

[*=left]to snatch out or away

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]KJV Translation Count — Total: 13x
The KJV translates Strongs G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

And the Lord's message to the assemblies of the church are still the same today not just to the early assemblies in Asia Minor

He uses them as examples of His evaluation of church behavior

Straightshot · Nov 27, 2014

These will be kept out of "EK" .... "away" from the coming tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 7:9-17]

[h=1]ἐκ[/h]

[TABLE="width: 606"]
[TR]
[TD]Transliteration
ek
[/TD]
[TD]Pronunciation
ek (Key)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Part of Speech
preposition
[/TD]
[TD]Root Word (Etymology)
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

[*=left]out of, from, by, away from

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]KJV Translation Count — Total: 921x
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Jackson123 · Nov 27, 2014

Rapture happen after second part of tribulation, when man of sin/ antichrist reveal.

[TABLE="class: tablestyle, width: 986"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][h=1]2 Thessalonians Chapter 2[/h][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Next >>[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 or view a 2 Thessalonians 2 parallel comparison.

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Straightshot · Nov 27, 2014

No .... the event [gathering] takes place just before the coming day of the Lord

2 Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

It is the day of the Lord [the tribulation period] that will not come until until human intransigence has reached His tolerance and Satan's beast is present

The issue of the passage was that some were teaching falsely that the day of the Lord had already come .... Paul set the early believer straight ..... that they had not missed the "gathering' of the Lord's call for them because the day of the Lord had not come ..... the "falling away" had not come, and the beast was not present .... they thought they had missed the "gathering" because of the false teaching

There is a similar false teaching to day by the pied pipers of preterism .....they say that the day of the Lord has already come and it came in 70 AD .... therefore there is no future day of the Lord coming, no "rapture", no tribulation period .... it is all over with

The teaching is false .... and so is the teaching of the mid and post tribulation thinker that ignores the pre-tribulation day of the Lord gathering given in scripture by Paul above and attempts to place the event in the middle, or at the end of the 2550 day tribulation

The Lord has said that He will keep His true ecclesia living at the time away from, or out of, the entire tribulation period .... He will [Revelation 3:10]

There will be those who become believers during the tribulation, but their journey must be in it

Here is the proof of the pre-tribulation event for those true ecclesia living just before

These will be dwelling in heaven during the period [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Seifer5 · Nov 27, 2014

[video=youtube;cAx4r85BtoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAx4r85BtoY&list=PL2UzMQ8BRRDeDD-0CWns_ZU8JHebdapgz&index=1[/video]

Jackson123 · Nov 27, 2014

Straightshot said:

Thessalonians 2 parallel comparison.

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let read carefully these verses.

A. Our gathering unto Him = rapture.
B. That day shall not come = rapture shall not come.
C. That man of sin be reveal.= Antichrist be reveal.

If you combine A B and C.

Rapture not come until Antichrist be reveal.

Antichrist reveal in second term or tribulation/ revelation 13.

Straightshot · Nov 27, 2014

B. Assumption wrong

The "day of the Lord" [His day of Judgment] shall not come .... not the "the gathering "

The gathering comes first ..... then "the day of the Lord" [His hour of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world] [Revelation 3:10]

Jackson123 · Nov 27, 2014

Straightshot said:

Read verse 1 brother. (O) by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND by our gathering our gathering,,,,,,

both the second coming and our gathering/rapture not happen before man of sin/Antichrist reveal.

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren,( O) by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

PlainWord · Nov 27, 2014

Straightshot said:

" There is no passage that teaches a snatching away or taking away to heaven to avoid the Tribulation."

Don't be ignorant .... there is for sure

1 Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be "caught up" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
[TABLE="width: 606"]
[TR]
[TD]Transliteration
harpazō[/TD]
[TD]Pronunciation
här-pä'-zō (Key) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Part of Speech
verb[/TD]
[TD]Root Word (Etymology)
From a derivative of αἱρέω (G138)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:472,80
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

[*=left]to seize, carry off by force
[*=left]to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
[*=left]to snatch out or away

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]KJV Translation Count — Total: 13x
The KJV translates Strongs G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

And the Lord's message to the assemblies of the church are still the same today not just to the early assemblies in Asia Minor

He uses them as examples of His evaluation of church behavior

Where in any of 1 Thes 4 are we told anyone is taken back to heaven????? Also, what makes you think Rev 3:10 is linked to 1 Thes 4???? There is no testing mentioned in 1 Thes 4. There is no gathering in Rev 3:10. CONJECTURE, CONJECTURE, CONJECTURE!!!

PlainWord · Nov 28, 2014

Straightshot said:

No one disputes that they will be kept from the Tribulation. But that does not mean they are ripped off the planet and transported to heaven. Wow, what an imagination. If I kept you from getting into a fight do I have to take you off the face of the earth and transport you to heaven to do it???

Straightshot · Nov 28, 2014

Are you a Murrayite PW? .... sounds like it

Just what serpent seed Arnold would say

He hates the "rapture" you know .... and he should

Sounds like you do to

I can tell you that you do not even know what the Lord's "harpazo" action is for ..... you missed it

Here is the rub son ..... you are following one who hates the idea of human immortality .... and so does Arnold

Strange, but true

GaryA · Nov 28, 2014

PlainWord said:

"I hope you had a nice one!"

( and everyone else, too

)

PlainWord · Nov 28, 2014

Straightshot said:

I am a Bible-ite. I'm not a Murrayite (whatever that is) and I'm not a Darbyite. I don't follow man or any man's doctrines. I follow the Word. If it sounds like I hate the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, I do. I don't care for any doctrine that runs contrary to clear teaching of the Word of God.

Only one return of Christ is taught and that return is located AFTER the Great Tribulation.
No place are we told Christ comes, snatches us off the planet then takes us all back to heaven.

I'm sorry if you believe things not found in the Bible based on conjecture and speculation. Those are your problems, not mine.

I have nothing against "harpazo" my issue is the timing. When the Lord returns there will be dramatic changes to the earth. Those of us still alive will be gathered to Christ - again, I have no issue with that and I believe it too. The main problem with the Pre-Trib mentality is that it first assumes the lie - An additional, earlier return of Christ whereby He comes, snatches and runs back to heaven with us then pours out His wrath upon the earth for 7 years only to bring us back again when its all over. This false assumption forces many other false assumptions such as the concept of a "tribulation era saint" which is another idea not taught and "left behind" which is another idea not found anywhere. These false ideas create the notion that the ELECT were not worthy of "rapture" when Christ comes and that they must now endure the Tribulation. This is nonsense.

The GREAT TRIBULATION

The whole idea that the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath is also utter nonsense. The Great Tribulation is the severe persecution (and mass slaughter - beheadings, etc) by Satan through his evil Islamic extremists against God's People, Jew and Christian alike. Satan uses the Man of Sin to deceive people through a false peace treaty then he exploits their false sense of security to attack and nearly destroy Israel and many of its fellow Arab nations. He calls for killings of Christians on a global scale and carries their murders out locally within his area of control. He also kills Arabs who will not conform or acknowledge his Caliphate. The Man of Sin declares himself to be above all that is worshiped and elevates himself above God including the god of his fathers (Allah). He forces everyone to bow down and worship the image of his beast empire. He forces everyone within his sphere of influence (1/4 of the world) to take his mark or the name of his beast empire (ISIL perhaps) or the number of his name or they will not be allowed to buy or sell.

The above are some of the events described as occurring during the Great Tribulation. Pre-Tribbers generally agree with the above yet they think that God is responsible for Satan's actions. Sure, God allows it but is He responsible for it??? God's wrath comes in response to what has been happening. Jesus makes clears that the days of Satan's tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the ELECT. Jesus talks about this in the Olivet Discourse but also in Luke 18:8. We are told to keep faith, be patient and persevere in multiple passages. Does this sound like advice needing to be given to a group who He plans to rapture off the planet before Satan's Tribulation?

All I am trying to do is point out to my fellow believers how very wrong their belief system is so that they can understand what is going to happen so that they will not lose their faith once they find themselves in the middle of this. Many who believe Christ is coming before anything bad happens will lose their faith just as Jesus warns in Mat 13. Just trying to help you out SON. I can call you "son" since you are 13 years my junior.

PlainWord · Nov 28, 2014

GaryA said:

Thanks Gary. It was a nice and quiet Thanksgiving. Just watched a little slaughter of the Bears, 49ers and Cowboys. Walked the dogs after a big meal. Hope everyone here also had a relaxing and uplifting day. We are all truly blessed to be called God's Children and hopefully nobody is allowing our doctrinal differences to lessen the love we have for each other in Christ Jesus.

PlainWord · Nov 28, 2014

It is impossible for people to understand God's plan if they don't understand what the Great Tribulation is and is not. So, let's start there. Tribulation is always about suffering of the righteous at the hands of evil. It is not God's Wrath, it is Satan's Wrath. Both "wraths" are real and both are coming. Obviously Satan's wrath comes first. We are told unequivocally that Satan's wrath is GREAT and that he has a "short time." This short time is called, "the Great Tribulation." Notice the word, "GREAT" is used both to describe Satan's wrath and to describe the Tribulation.

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Satan's Great Tribulation will be so severe that Jesus Himself worries about it. But we are given the promise of His return and we are told He will avenge our blood.

Luke 18:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Does God need to avenge His ELECT if He took them to heaven before the Tribulation? Paul provides more detail of the severe persecution that is coming to us at the hands of Satan and Paul also assures us (as Christ does) that there will be divine revenge poured out in response. Paul even goes further and tells us when.

2 Thes 1:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Daniel also speaks of the saints being battered by Satan and his evil forces and tells us that this continues right up until God returns and stops it and puts down evil and rewards the saints. There is no mention of anyone being snatched off the planet and spared Satan's wrath. The timing is clear - this Satanic tribulation continues right up and until God returns and stops it!!

Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

John agrees and also speaks of this righteous revenge and he too locates it after Satan's Tribulation.

Rev 16:

“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

This sequence, Satan's severe tribulation followed by God's divine retribution is found over and over again by nearly every OT prophet. Nowhere are we told that the church is excluded. ISIS is slaughtering and beheading Christians by the thousands right now. For them, the Great Tribulation is now. ISIS is just getting started and nobody is going to stop them until God stops them.

The Great Tribulation has started and we are still here.

Straightshot · Nov 28, 2014

I agree that ISIS may be the beginning of the little horn's kingdom .... time will tell

..... but for you to think that the world is in the great tribulation is false thinking

What you do not want to have to say when it does come .... "we are all still here" [Revelation 3:15-19]

You might be, but the Lord's ecclesia will not be ..... these will be made immortal and watching you

Post tribulation thinking is false thinking for many reasons

Do not let a false teacher mislead you .... [2 Thessalonians 2:1-15]

When the day of the Lord and His great tribulation does start the earth dwellers will know without a doubt [Revelation 6:12-17]

When they see all of these things taken together [Luke 21:20-38] ..... all of them together

Specifically the time of Jacob's [Israel's] trouble [Jeremiah 30]

The world is not there yet and this is obvious .... could begin before this day is over .... make sure your are ready as the Lord has admonished [Matthew 25:1-13] ..... check your oil

PlainWord · Nov 28, 2014

Straightshot said:

Blinder than a bat with false doctrine. Sorry my friend but you and so many others who believe this pre-trib rapture nonsense are living in a fantasy world. I agree the Great Trib may not have started for all of us but it certainly has started for those Christians living in Northern Iraq and Syria. They are dying for the Gospel by being beheaded, just as John tells us they will.

You like so many believe that Christians over there are second class citizens and its okay for them to be killed and beheaded as long as their tribulation doesn't come here. Somehow, only American Christians appear exempt from suffering in your mind. Somehow we are special.

Islamic Extremism is the foundation of the Great Tribulation. If you want to think God sponsors false religion and killing of His people, you go right ahead. Since you do not know what the tribulation is, I am not surprised that you are fooled by what the Rapture is and more importantly, when it is.

SAID with LOVE.

When does the rapture occur?

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