When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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My comments
The world is not in the tribulation period at this time ... when it does come with no warning all earth dwellers will know .... those who think we are have no proof
And the last 7th and last judgment of the tribulation period has no direct connection with a "rapture" .... and neither does the next great trumpet which involves a gathering of the surviving mortals of the tribulation period on the earth .... there are no resurrections associated
The post posters above go on and on with their man made dogma in blindness
The Lord's last trumpet call for His ecclesia will happen just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon the earth
The first trumpet sounding for the same is in Revelation 1:10
The world is not in the tribulation period at this time ... when it does come with no warning all earth dwellers will know .... those who think we are have no proof
And the last 7th and last judgment of the tribulation period has no direct connection with a "rapture" .... and neither does the next great trumpet which involves a gathering of the surviving mortals of the tribulation period on the earth .... there are no resurrections associated
The post posters above go on and on with their man made dogma in blindness
The Lord's last trumpet call for His ecclesia will happen just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon the earth
The first trumpet sounding for the same is in Revelation 1:10
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Okay, this is a summary, so I won't be going into detail. If you want to know in detail, it takes a lot of study. I can help direct you if you like.
Here is what happened:
There was an age before this age. We were in that age, but in spirit bodies. Read Jeremiah, Romans, Daniel, and Revelation.
GOD created billions of souls and they all had free will. GOD'S THRONE is The Mercy Seat. With billions of free will beings, you can understand why there was a need for a mercy seat. Michael the arch angel and satan had the job of guarding the Mercy Seat. The devil, which is satan, was very beautiful and had the privilege of walking in the Garden Of GOD. The devil was at a very elevated level. The devil was so proud that he thought he should be above the stars of GOD. That means he felt he should be our GOD. Read Ezekiel 28 where GOD sentences satan to death.
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now, in order for GOD know Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb, Jeremiah had to be somewhere. That somewhere was the last age. GOD knew Jeremiah and HE also knew HE could count on Jeremiah. Don't pull that 'GOD knows everything' statement. GOD is the GOD of Peace, that means common sense. If GOD meant it that way, HE would have said it. If GOD knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb, HE knew all of us before we were in our mother's wombs. Look for my post on 'Why are we what we are' for a further explanation. Read the book of Job to know that GOD calls his children stars. Those stars (the children) are the ones that the devil wanted to rule over. To make a Very long story short, the age before this one had a similar governmental system as what this world is about to become. It's called The One World System. It will be in this age, very similar to the last age, but not quite exact. I guess the devil is trying a strategy change.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Notice that the crowns are on the heads. That means actual kingdoms. This was the last age.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Notice that the crowns are on the horns. That means that the ten kings that come back with satan are given power as kings for one hour with the beast. These horns are fallen angels.
Both of the systems above are governmental systems. We are repeating the last age, but with a veil to allow us to choose innocently who we love, GOD or satan. We don't have memory of the last age. But GOD'S Elect know and will have the knowledge because they fought against satan in the last age. That is why they are predestined. That is why they are chosen. They have already been judged. They were written in The LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE before the foundation of this world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
'was in the last age'
'is not because he is in prison'
'is because he is coming back'
So, if you were not written in the Book Of Life at the foundation of this world, you will worship satan.
There are two tribulations. The tribulation of anti CHRIST and the tribulation of JESUS CHRIST.
In the tribulation of anti CHRIST (anti in the Greek means 'instead of', not against. satan will pretend to be JESUS. Rapture believers fall for it hook, line, and sinker. But the key is, that satan has the whole world worshiping him except the Elect.
The devil is in a rage because he has but a short time and the Elect are bringing his system down (dilivered up, remember?).
The point is, he has the world, so it's the Elect he is after. But JESUS cuts the tribulation short for the Elect's sake.
The rule satan breaks and causes the tribulation to be cut short is:
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
It's the Elect that have The Seal Of GOD in there foreheads (in their minds, that is what is in your forehead. Same as the mark of the beast. It's in your forehead (brain)).
The devil breaks that rule by killing two of the Elect. The Two Witnesses. Three and a half days after satan kills them, the Seventh Trump sounds and JESUS Returns. That is the beginning of The LORD'S Day! The Millennium!
Now, when JESUS was in the Garden Of Gethsemane, HE asked FATHER if HE could pass the cup. The cup that HE was talking about was not what HE was about to go through, but the Cup Of Wrath that was going to be poured out on the children. That Cup is the Seven Vials. That is the Second Tribulation. The Tribulation of JESUS CHRIST! You don't harvest grapes with a sickle!
And don't forget, satan comes in peacefully and prosperously and brings peace throughout the world. It's not a true peace however. And if you want to know what the first tribulation, the tribulation of anti CHRIST is cut short to, just ask me.
Also, even if you aren't Elect, that doesn't mean you won't come out of worshiping satan when you hear the Elect speak when they are delivered up as written in Mark 13. But can you imagine what it means if you are Elect? GOD says don't give MY Elect and inheritance! GOD says that HE is their inheritance! Do you realize what that means? It's the stuff of the big bang! It means that where you are, you own it! Not that any of that matters. It's being around JESUS that matters. As you know, in the Millennium, the people cannot go around JESUS. Only the Very Elect can. If you have ever felt the SHEKINA GLORY, you know that that means!
Hope this helps you.
Here is what happened:
There was an age before this age. We were in that age, but in spirit bodies. Read Jeremiah, Romans, Daniel, and Revelation.
GOD created billions of souls and they all had free will. GOD'S THRONE is The Mercy Seat. With billions of free will beings, you can understand why there was a need for a mercy seat. Michael the arch angel and satan had the job of guarding the Mercy Seat. The devil, which is satan, was very beautiful and had the privilege of walking in the Garden Of GOD. The devil was at a very elevated level. The devil was so proud that he thought he should be above the stars of GOD. That means he felt he should be our GOD. Read Ezekiel 28 where GOD sentences satan to death.
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now, in order for GOD know Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb, Jeremiah had to be somewhere. That somewhere was the last age. GOD knew Jeremiah and HE also knew HE could count on Jeremiah. Don't pull that 'GOD knows everything' statement. GOD is the GOD of Peace, that means common sense. If GOD meant it that way, HE would have said it. If GOD knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's womb, HE knew all of us before we were in our mother's wombs. Look for my post on 'Why are we what we are' for a further explanation. Read the book of Job to know that GOD calls his children stars. Those stars (the children) are the ones that the devil wanted to rule over. To make a Very long story short, the age before this one had a similar governmental system as what this world is about to become. It's called The One World System. It will be in this age, very similar to the last age, but not quite exact. I guess the devil is trying a strategy change.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Notice that the crowns are on the heads. That means actual kingdoms. This was the last age.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Notice that the crowns are on the horns. That means that the ten kings that come back with satan are given power as kings for one hour with the beast. These horns are fallen angels.
Both of the systems above are governmental systems. We are repeating the last age, but with a veil to allow us to choose innocently who we love, GOD or satan. We don't have memory of the last age. But GOD'S Elect know and will have the knowledge because they fought against satan in the last age. That is why they are predestined. That is why they are chosen. They have already been judged. They were written in The LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE before the foundation of this world.
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
'was in the last age'
'is not because he is in prison'
'is because he is coming back'
So, if you were not written in the Book Of Life at the foundation of this world, you will worship satan.
There are two tribulations. The tribulation of anti CHRIST and the tribulation of JESUS CHRIST.
In the tribulation of anti CHRIST (anti in the Greek means 'instead of', not against. satan will pretend to be JESUS. Rapture believers fall for it hook, line, and sinker. But the key is, that satan has the whole world worshiping him except the Elect.
The devil is in a rage because he has but a short time and the Elect are bringing his system down (dilivered up, remember?).
The point is, he has the world, so it's the Elect he is after. But JESUS cuts the tribulation short for the Elect's sake.
The rule satan breaks and causes the tribulation to be cut short is:
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
It's the Elect that have The Seal Of GOD in there foreheads (in their minds, that is what is in your forehead. Same as the mark of the beast. It's in your forehead (brain)).
The devil breaks that rule by killing two of the Elect. The Two Witnesses. Three and a half days after satan kills them, the Seventh Trump sounds and JESUS Returns. That is the beginning of The LORD'S Day! The Millennium!
Now, when JESUS was in the Garden Of Gethsemane, HE asked FATHER if HE could pass the cup. The cup that HE was talking about was not what HE was about to go through, but the Cup Of Wrath that was going to be poured out on the children. That Cup is the Seven Vials. That is the Second Tribulation. The Tribulation of JESUS CHRIST! You don't harvest grapes with a sickle!
And don't forget, satan comes in peacefully and prosperously and brings peace throughout the world. It's not a true peace however. And if you want to know what the first tribulation, the tribulation of anti CHRIST is cut short to, just ask me.
Also, even if you aren't Elect, that doesn't mean you won't come out of worshiping satan when you hear the Elect speak when they are delivered up as written in Mark 13. But can you imagine what it means if you are Elect? GOD says don't give MY Elect and inheritance! GOD says that HE is their inheritance! Do you realize what that means? It's the stuff of the big bang! It means that where you are, you own it! Not that any of that matters. It's being around JESUS that matters. As you know, in the Millennium, the people cannot go around JESUS. Only the Very Elect can. If you have ever felt the SHEKINA GLORY, you know that that means!
Hope this helps you.
You and I have little in common when to comes to the exegetical study of Bible prophecy
More than enough to prevent a discussion on this forum .... neither will bend
So you will have to take up your desire to banter of the subject at hand with others
Preterism forms of Amil, and your post-tribulation theology don't workout no matter how much you try to apply
You seem to grasp a thing or two .... but I see much else that I consider to be way off course
And some of what you say is not biblical at all
More than enough to prevent a discussion on this forum .... neither will bend
So you will have to take up your desire to banter of the subject at hand with others
Preterism forms of Amil, and your post-tribulation theology don't workout no matter how much you try to apply
You seem to grasp a thing or two .... but I see much else that I consider to be way off course
And some of what you say is not biblical at all
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[TD="width: 657, bgcolor: #FCECE4"]Most of those who cling to the post tribulation theology and with disdain for a pre-tribulation "rapture" have been influenced by their religious organizations and current false teachers
Examples of both: The early "church fathers" of the RCC and David MacPherson
The RCC still holds this falsehood today mixed with a brand of hyper-preteristism
Here is a short summary on MacPherson
His claim to fame was being the very first person to purchase a Disneyland ticket at the age of 22 in July of 1955. He celebrated Disney's 50th anniversary in 2005 with that honorable mention. He began to vigorously attack the pre-tribulation rapture in the early 1970s, claiming his historical research showed that a teenage Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald came up with the idea in the 1830. This happened when she was a member of the Catholic Apostolic Church. While that is historical nonsense, he still says all writings on the pre-tribulation rapture are full of revisions, cover-ups, altercations, deceptions and confusions. Summed up, it's a conspiracy. His books, riddled with errors, have been discredited with lacking historical method. He claims to be the "Pretrib Rapture Answerman." Being an anti-pretribulationist has become his life's crusade, and he is said to be publicly endorsed by numerous Christian leaders including premill, amill, postmill, preterist, historicist, futurist, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib, charismatic, dominionist, reformed, orthodox, and independents. That's a widely traveled road.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 657, bgcolor: #FCECE4"]Most of those who cling to the post tribulation theology and with disdain for a pre-tribulation "rapture" have been influenced by their religious organizations and current false teachers
Examples of both: The early "church fathers" of the RCC and David MacPherson
The RCC still holds this falsehood today mixed with a brand of hyper-preteristism
Here is a short summary on MacPherson
His claim to fame was being the very first person to purchase a Disneyland ticket at the age of 22 in July of 1955. He celebrated Disney's 50th anniversary in 2005 with that honorable mention. He began to vigorously attack the pre-tribulation rapture in the early 1970s, claiming his historical research showed that a teenage Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald came up with the idea in the 1830. This happened when she was a member of the Catholic Apostolic Church. While that is historical nonsense, he still says all writings on the pre-tribulation rapture are full of revisions, cover-ups, altercations, deceptions and confusions. Summed up, it's a conspiracy. His books, riddled with errors, have been discredited with lacking historical method. He claims to be the "Pretrib Rapture Answerman." Being an anti-pretribulationist has become his life's crusade, and he is said to be publicly endorsed by numerous Christian leaders including premill, amill, postmill, preterist, historicist, futurist, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib, charismatic, dominionist, reformed, orthodox, and independents. That's a widely traveled road.[/TD]
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I just don't see where the confusion is. God has NEVER removed His people from Judgment. He tells us we will see it. He also tells us we will be spared His Wrath. This is very clear.
What is also clear is that the events of the Seals and Trumpets are called judgments, while the events of the Bowls are called Wrath.
I'm not sure why it's so hard to put the 2+2 together.
What is also clear is that the events of the Seals and Trumpets are called judgments, while the events of the Bowls are called Wrath.
I'm not sure why it's so hard to put the 2+2 together.
Put these scriptures together:
[Revelation 3:10; 4:44; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 11:14]
These are immortals of the Lord's ecclesia that dwell in heaven just before and during the coming tribulation period
The same will contend with the Lord against Satan's beast and followers at Armageddon at the ending of the period
And they will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth [Revelation 20:4][those on thrones] .... and Satan will be sent to the abyss so that he cannot deceive the mortals of the nations during the kingdom [Revelation 20:1-3]
Satan is then released at the end of the period and he will be able to muster another human rebellion against the Lord
If your view is correct stating that all believers will be resurrected at the ending of the tribulation period, there would be no believing morals left to enter and populate the kingdom [like no Noah and family to repopulate the earth after the flood] ..... but there will be
The gatherings after the days of the tribulation are not resurrections of anyone .... these will be gatherings of all of the mortal survivors on the earth from all directions ..... first of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... then of the Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]
Those mortals found believing will enter the the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected
Two congruent criteria will be evaluated by the Lord:
Whether one is a believer, and how they treated those of Israel [the Lord's brethren] during the tribulation period
All found believing will have accommodated Israel during the period .... all unbelievers will have been against Israel during the period
.... much like it is today .... antisemitism is running rampant today
It is just that simple
Post tribulation thinking is flawed and not supported by the prophetic scriptures
Humans on the earth will know that they are under the Lord's judgment .... no doubt [Revelation 6:12-17]
But the Lord will intervene suddenly at a time that no one will expect .... and no signs or warnings will given just before
.... a time when people are going about their business in their earthly lives [Mathew 24:36-39]
So there is a time [dating] that no one can know [the Lord's sudden intervention to bring His unprecedented judgment upon an entire world that has refused to believe the truth about Him] .... and a time when all of the earth dwellers will be experiencing His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon them
There is no contradiction here, and obviously the settings cannot be the same, but very different
One before the tribulation .... and one at the ending of the same
The first could happen beginning before this day is over, His intervention as a thief [no warning .... thieves do not give a heads up] .... and the Lord's appearing to the surviving earth dwellers will come at the end of His tribulation
Take the Lord at his word .... you must be ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]
[Revelation 3:10; 4:44; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 11:14]
These are immortals of the Lord's ecclesia that dwell in heaven just before and during the coming tribulation period
The same will contend with the Lord against Satan's beast and followers at Armageddon at the ending of the period
And they will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth [Revelation 20:4][those on thrones] .... and Satan will be sent to the abyss so that he cannot deceive the mortals of the nations during the kingdom [Revelation 20:1-3]
Satan is then released at the end of the period and he will be able to muster another human rebellion against the Lord
If your view is correct stating that all believers will be resurrected at the ending of the tribulation period, there would be no believing morals left to enter and populate the kingdom [like no Noah and family to repopulate the earth after the flood] ..... but there will be
The gatherings after the days of the tribulation are not resurrections of anyone .... these will be gatherings of all of the mortal survivors on the earth from all directions ..... first of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... then of the Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]
Those mortals found believing will enter the the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected
Two congruent criteria will be evaluated by the Lord:
Whether one is a believer, and how they treated those of Israel [the Lord's brethren] during the tribulation period
All found believing will have accommodated Israel during the period .... all unbelievers will have been against Israel during the period
.... much like it is today .... antisemitism is running rampant today
It is just that simple
Post tribulation thinking is flawed and not supported by the prophetic scriptures
Humans on the earth will know that they are under the Lord's judgment .... no doubt [Revelation 6:12-17]
But the Lord will intervene suddenly at a time that no one will expect .... and no signs or warnings will given just before
.... a time when people are going about their business in their earthly lives [Mathew 24:36-39]
So there is a time [dating] that no one can know [the Lord's sudden intervention to bring His unprecedented judgment upon an entire world that has refused to believe the truth about Him] .... and a time when all of the earth dwellers will be experiencing His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon them
There is no contradiction here, and obviously the settings cannot be the same, but very different
One before the tribulation .... and one at the ending of the same
The first could happen beginning before this day is over, His intervention as a thief [no warning .... thieves do not give a heads up] .... and the Lord's appearing to the surviving earth dwellers will come at the end of His tribulation
Take the Lord at his word .... you must be ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]
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Blasphemous thought? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what the seals and trumpets are? God's judgment is found in the Bowls. They are in response to the seals and trumpets, the first 4 of each at least. If you don't think the Tribulation period which precedes the 2nd coming of Christ isn't of Satan, perhaps you can explain these verses?
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. - This is the 5th Trumpet.
Do you think this is GOD???? Is God the Angel of the Bottomless Pit? Since the 5th trumpet is clearly NOT of GOD and clearly of Satan how many other trumpets are of Satan???
How about the 5th seal? Did God kill these people?
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Does God need to avenge His own actions???? I think you better rethink all the nonsense you've been taught about the Tribulation at church my friend. Tribulation has ALWAYS been about persecution and killing of Believers at the hand of the wicked. Since that is FACT, what would great Tribulation be? Is the AntiChrist of God??? Who is the central figure during the Tribulation??? God or Satan? Who gets chained up after the Tribulation? God or Satan?
Who gets killed during the Great Tribulation my friend?
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Are the above dead unbelievers or are they dead Christians? If dead Christians, during what period where they killed? I underlined in bold the answer for you. Since we are "not appointed to wrath" then clearly God didn't kill them, so who did? Since we are not appointed to wrath then God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation. So either God's wrath comes before or after. Which do you think?
The Great Tribulation is all about Satan, his wrath, his unrighteous deception trying to fool believers into thinking he is God. Satan isn't coming to deceive the unbeliever. He already has them. He comes to deceive the believer. God's wrath comes after the Tribulation.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. - This is the 5th Trumpet.
Do you think this is GOD???? Is God the Angel of the Bottomless Pit? Since the 5th trumpet is clearly NOT of GOD and clearly of Satan how many other trumpets are of Satan???
How about the 5th seal? Did God kill these people?
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Does God need to avenge His own actions???? I think you better rethink all the nonsense you've been taught about the Tribulation at church my friend. Tribulation has ALWAYS been about persecution and killing of Believers at the hand of the wicked. Since that is FACT, what would great Tribulation be? Is the AntiChrist of God??? Who is the central figure during the Tribulation??? God or Satan? Who gets chained up after the Tribulation? God or Satan?
Who gets killed during the Great Tribulation my friend?
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Are the above dead unbelievers or are they dead Christians? If dead Christians, during what period where they killed? I underlined in bold the answer for you. Since we are "not appointed to wrath" then clearly God didn't kill them, so who did? Since we are not appointed to wrath then God's Wrath is not part of the Great Tribulation. So either God's wrath comes before or after. Which do you think?
The Great Tribulation is all about Satan, his wrath, his unrighteous deception trying to fool believers into thinking he is God. Satan isn't coming to deceive the unbeliever. He already has them. He comes to deceive the believer. God's wrath comes after the Tribulation.
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I like this and there is a "catching up" but who is doing the "catching up?" Is it God or Jesus?
I see passage where Jesus sends His angels to "Gather" us, but I find no passage where Jesus "Catches us up." Do you?
Jesus Gathers:
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect...
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds...
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you..
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself...
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
I see the word, "GATHER" used consistently to describe how Jesus gets His faithful to Him upon His return, but I don't see a "rapture/catching up" in any of the passages where it is clear from the text that it is Jesus coming. I also see Jesus on the ground after His return with His ELECT...
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand...
But I don't see any "CATCHING UP" in the sky or clouds for Christ. However, I do see where God the Father catches up.
GOD RAPTURES:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
The above describes the return of GOD the Father. He is identified in verse 14 as the one coming here. Therefore when Paul uses the word "Lord" he is talking about God. It is GOD'S Trumpet in verse 16.
A lot of people seem to forget that God comes back too. God isn't staying in the old heaven after the judgment and final resurrection. He is coming back and we will all enter the new heaven with Him and His Son.
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
The above tells us clearly that God and the Lamb (Christ Jesus) are together and we are all together. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies God the Father who is coming. This famous "Rapture" passage isn't dealing with Christ's return at all. The whole Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is based on the wrong member of the Trinity and is 1,000 years off!!
I see passage where Jesus sends His angels to "Gather" us, but I find no passage where Jesus "Catches us up." Do you?
Jesus Gathers:
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect...
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds...
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you..
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself...
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
I see the word, "GATHER" used consistently to describe how Jesus gets His faithful to Him upon His return, but I don't see a "rapture/catching up" in any of the passages where it is clear from the text that it is Jesus coming. I also see Jesus on the ground after His return with His ELECT...
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand...
But I don't see any "CATCHING UP" in the sky or clouds for Christ. However, I do see where God the Father catches up.
GOD RAPTURES:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
The above describes the return of GOD the Father. He is identified in verse 14 as the one coming here. Therefore when Paul uses the word "Lord" he is talking about God. It is GOD'S Trumpet in verse 16.
A lot of people seem to forget that God comes back too. God isn't staying in the old heaven after the judgment and final resurrection. He is coming back and we will all enter the new heaven with Him and His Son.
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
The above tells us clearly that God and the Lamb (Christ Jesus) are together and we are all together. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies God the Father who is coming. This famous "Rapture" passage isn't dealing with Christ's return at all. The whole Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is based on the wrong member of the Trinity and is 1,000 years off!!
You just don't get it PW
Satan has no part of any judgment upon humans except to be used by the Lord in His process to punish those who have refused to believe the truth about Him [Psalms 2; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 6:12-17; 17:16-18]
The idea that it is Satan's wrath is bogus ..... it is not .... you are giving the devil way to much recognition
And you are doing it to prove out your post-tribulation theology which is false
..... and you are denying the Lord's promise to keep you from the coming tribulation period [the whole thing]
This does not look good for you to be doing .... what are you up to?
Satan has no part of any judgment upon humans except to be used by the Lord in His process to punish those who have refused to believe the truth about Him [Psalms 2; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 6:12-17; 17:16-18]
The idea that it is Satan's wrath is bogus ..... it is not .... you are giving the devil way to much recognition
And you are doing it to prove out your post-tribulation theology which is false
..... and you are denying the Lord's promise to keep you from the coming tribulation period [the whole thing]
This does not look good for you to be doing .... what are you up to?
There is a pot of coffee brewing and you just don't smell it.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
You are told in plain English, in BLACK and WHITE who is coming and who this "creature" is from and of, but still you can't see it. This strong delusion Paul spoke of really blows my mind just how strong it is. You are looking STRAIGHT at the truth but still you cannot see. When Satan comes, he comes with UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION. Just who do you think Satan comes to deceive??? He's coming to deceive YOU!! Satan wants Christians to worship him. That's what this is all about.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
You are told in plain English, in BLACK and WHITE who is coming and who this "creature" is from and of, but still you can't see it. This strong delusion Paul spoke of really blows my mind just how strong it is. You are looking STRAIGHT at the truth but still you cannot see. When Satan comes, he comes with UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION. Just who do you think Satan comes to deceive??? He's coming to deceive YOU!! Satan wants Christians to worship him. That's what this is all about.
"If we're being 'caught up' to meet Him, then it's still rapture. It's just that it's not in heaven, by your understanding. Rapture is just Latin for 'caught up'."
You see this correctly
.... and I would add that "caught up" means to the higher level of immortality
There is no up or down related to this changing .... just a way to describe the immortal state of existence
"Heaven" is just that .... not up or down or in some far far place in the universe ..... the condition is right in front of a mortal man's face .... we just cannot see it
There is a barrier which we cannot cross .... another dimension of you will ..... the Lord is there you know
And He is right in front of us all ..... His is omnipresent everywhere at the same time .... we just cannot see Him
But we will ..... [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Romans 8]
So the "catching up" argument of PW is moot .... what this one is really trying to prove is a post-tribulation event that is simply not going to happen .... there will be no one "caught up" in the gatherings after the tribulation is over
PW simple has the "catching up" at the wrong end of the tribulation of the Lord's wrath
Problem .... many professing Christians will not be "ready" at the time of the "catching" and they will go into the tribulation period [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
PW needs to give this some thought
You see this correctly
.... and I would add that "caught up" means to the higher level of immortality
There is no up or down related to this changing .... just a way to describe the immortal state of existence
"Heaven" is just that .... not up or down or in some far far place in the universe ..... the condition is right in front of a mortal man's face .... we just cannot see it
There is a barrier which we cannot cross .... another dimension of you will ..... the Lord is there you know
And He is right in front of us all ..... His is omnipresent everywhere at the same time .... we just cannot see Him
But we will ..... [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Romans 8]
So the "catching up" argument of PW is moot .... what this one is really trying to prove is a post-tribulation event that is simply not going to happen .... there will be no one "caught up" in the gatherings after the tribulation is over
PW simple has the "catching up" at the wrong end of the tribulation of the Lord's wrath
Problem .... many professing Christians will not be "ready" at the time of the "catching" and they will go into the tribulation period [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
PW needs to give this some thought
"I just don't see where the confusion is. God has NEVER removed His people from Judgment. He tells us we will see it. He also tells us we will be spared His Wrath. This is very clear"
Give me the scriptures where He tells "us" what you say about His judgment .... His hour [time] of trial that is coming
And do you know that an immortal can observe and see things?
Give me the scriptures where He tells "us" what you say about His judgment .... His hour [time] of trial that is coming
And do you know that an immortal can observe and see things?
