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Problem is: people are not in agreement as to terminology, esp. the word "believer".
The world is quite full of people who call themselves "believers in Christ".
However, many (most?) of these are only believers intellectually,
i.e. they never have been born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
These poor souls have only been "converted" at some point in time in their thinking!
People can actually "believe" in Jesus because they were raised that way.
That's why I differentiate by using the term BAC.
The world is quite full of people who call themselves "believers in Christ".
However, many (most?) of these are only believers intellectually,
i.e. they never have been born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
These poor souls have only been "converted" at some point in time in their thinking!
People can actually "believe" in Jesus because they were raised that way.
That's why I differentiate by using the term BAC.
For the most part you make things up as you go to accommodate your theology. Parsing words and phrases to create conflicts which you solve with questionable reasoning.
You cannot know what is in the heart of a man. God alone ponders the heart. Please cease from judging others on the matter of salvation. God is merciful and gracious God will save those who call on Him. God draws souls to Him just allow God to save souls as He deems proper and necessary.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You cannot know what is in the heart of a man. God alone ponders the heart. Please cease from judging others on the matter of salvation. God is merciful and gracious God will save those who call on Him. God draws souls to Him just allow God to save souls as He deems proper and necessary.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What shall I say? The Holy Spirit is our guide and the Holy Spirit discerns the truth of the scriptures. Many claim to know Christ but very few demonstrate any biblical evidence to support their claim.
I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is a core doctrine but all doctrine gives evidence of what is in the heart.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I do not believe that the doctrine of the rapture is a core doctrine but all doctrine gives evidence of what is in the heart.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
First, The warning to be ready at any hour or day is about the Lord's coming. The 1st Rapture is a coming of the Lord within the clouds to take up his people so as to be where He is. The 2nd Rapture is a coming of the Lord to gather his Elect so to battle at Armageddon. I believe Matthew 24:46-51 to be a double fulfimment type passage in talking about both Rapture events. For after this passage, we are immediately given a parable in Matthew 25 on the Pre-Trib Rapture event of hearing a call to enter into the marriage at an hour that we do not know. There were no signs. Only a call unto marriage. Luke talks about a return unto calling the guests unto after the marriage had already taken place. The return is obviously the 2nd Rapture event.
Second, while one can read the passsage both ways, one cannot also ignore the other reading of the verse that suggests that if the Pre-Trib Rapture is true, then those who believe certain things must come to pass before the Lord returns. Like the Antichrist showing himself he is God in the Temple and or in certain signs taking place. This is saying that the Lord is delaying his coming from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective or reading. If that is the case, then such a reading would not bold well for someone who rejects the Pre-Trib view. But as I said before, I am not here to say anyone is going to Hell for not believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I already made that fact clear already before within this thread. Only God would be able to Judges someone's salvation or standing with Him or not. I say this because the verse can be read both ways or from both perspectives.
What I am saying is that if believer does not hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture view, they obviously will not be a partaker in it. For God never rewards a person's unbelief.
Second, while one can read the passsage both ways, one cannot also ignore the other reading of the verse that suggests that if the Pre-Trib Rapture is true, then those who believe certain things must come to pass before the Lord returns. Like the Antichrist showing himself he is God in the Temple and or in certain signs taking place. This is saying that the Lord is delaying his coming from a Pre-Trib Rapture perspective or reading. If that is the case, then such a reading would not bold well for someone who rejects the Pre-Trib view. But as I said before, I am not here to say anyone is going to Hell for not believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I already made that fact clear already before within this thread. Only God would be able to Judges someone's salvation or standing with Him or not. I say this because the verse can be read both ways or from both perspectives.
What I am saying is that if believer does not hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture view, they obviously will not be a partaker in it. For God never rewards a person's unbelief.
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S
If you have to say "if the pre trib rapture is true", then you have to realize that this is not an issue that is mandatory to have an opinion on.
Also, a big NO to your assumption. OBVIOUSLY if there is a pre trib rapture, even the posttribber will be captured. It's not about being right, it's about being the Bride.
Also, a big NO to your assumption. OBVIOUSLY if there is a pre trib rapture, even the posttribber will be captured. It's not about being right, it's about being the Bride.
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[h=1]rapture is when Jesus appear in the sky. it is after tribulation not before.
Matthew 24:29-30King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:29-30King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Israelites could not enter the Promised Land because of their unbelief. God is the same yestereday as He is today. If a beiiever today has unbelief in the Pre-Trib Rapture, they will not enter into the marriage to Christ at the appointed time. They will be like the foolish virgins who did not have enough oil in their lamps. For there is no verse suggesting that if a person fails to watch properly for Him will still be in God's good graces to be taken up with Him. On the contrary, Scripture suggests the exact opposite.
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Well, many believe this because they do not understand that the Scriptures teach that there are two Rapture events, my friend. They did not do the study objectively so as to see that the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Gathering of the Elect at the Lord's 2nd Coming to the Earth are two separate events. The majority of Matthew 24 talks about the End times with the 2nd Rapture event. Matthew 25 talks about the entering into marriage with the 1st Rapture event (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture event). The parallel passage in Luke in the Olivet Discourse lets us know that the gathering of the Elect in the End Times is the RETURN from Christ already having been in the marriage. Yet, Matthew 25 talks about an entering into that marriage.
As I said before, the Israelites did not enter into the Promised Land because of their unbelief. Surely, if God's people again do not believe, they will not be caught up with Christ as part of the reward in being married to Him. They will not believe and be rewarded, just as the Israelites did not believe and were not rewarded.
Anyways, here is some evidence of the Pre-Trib Rapture:
Differences to Notice Between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Gathering of the Elect at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Clues Concerning the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Clues Concerning the Gathering of the Elect at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Parallel of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Genesis and in Revelation.
Christ will come and an hour or day you will not know.
And there is more (of course).
Anyways, here is some evidence of the Pre-Trib Rapture:
Differences to Notice Between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Gathering of the Elect at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Clues Concerning the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Clues Concerning the Gathering of the Elect at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Parallel of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Genesis and in Revelation.
Christ will come and an hour or day you will not know.
And there is more (of course).
There is only one (parousia) coming of Jesus and not 2 so his conclusion is flawed.....When viewed in context all things do jive with one body presence (parousia/coming) of Jesus as found at the 7th Trump of Revelation which is post tribulation/pre-wrath.
Day of the Lord->seizes control of all earthly kingdoms
Day of Christ->rewards the saints, prophets and those who fear God
Day of God->Pours out his wrath on unbelieving world as ANNOUNCED in heaven
All three commence at the 7th trump of Revelation when TIME shall be no more as TIME runs out....
Day of the Lord->seizes control of all earthly kingdoms
Day of Christ->rewards the saints, prophets and those who fear God
Day of God->Pours out his wrath on unbelieving world as ANNOUNCED in heaven
All three commence at the 7th trump of Revelation when TIME shall be no more as TIME runs out....
I do care when Christ comes to marry His bride. Jesus said it will be at an hour and day we will not expect. I believe Him and therefore will look for Him at any moment rather than expecting certain things to happen and then expect Him to come. It is important to me because I know folks who do not believe will not be gathered up.
Yes, I believe there are two Rapture events that are similar but not identical.
The 1st Rapture is the marriage to Christ. We see this in the Parable of Matthew 25 with the virgins ENTERING into the wedding (marriage). The 1st Rapture is different from the 2nd Rapture in the fact that the dead in Christ will rise first from Abraham's Bosom. Then we (who are alive) will be caught up next to meet the Lord in the air and we will forever be with Him. We will not be Raptured up so as to go to battle like the saints in the 2nd Rapture. So the 2nd Rapture is a RETURN after the wedding according to the parallel Olivet Discourse passage in Luke. This 2nd Rapture will be to gather for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Which is not a feast in Heaven but it is the battle of Armageddon).
To learn more in detail of what I am talking about, please check out the links in Post #156.
The 1st Rapture is the marriage to Christ. We see this in the Parable of Matthew 25 with the virgins ENTERING into the wedding (marriage). The 1st Rapture is different from the 2nd Rapture in the fact that the dead in Christ will rise first from Abraham's Bosom. Then we (who are alive) will be caught up next to meet the Lord in the air and we will forever be with Him. We will not be Raptured up so as to go to battle like the saints in the 2nd Rapture. So the 2nd Rapture is a RETURN after the wedding according to the parallel Olivet Discourse passage in Luke. This 2nd Rapture will be to gather for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Which is not a feast in Heaven but it is the battle of Armageddon).
To learn more in detail of what I am talking about, please check out the links in Post #156.
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