THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
102
0
How did satan deceive eve...did God say...and whats Pauls warning to us? Not the be lead away from the simplicity of Christ...as you received Him so walk ye in Him....how did we receive Him? By faith apart from the works of the law...which always makes salvation so complex ...this law ..that law...you gota do this and do that...etc Its not the gospel and it don't save anyone!
Pure genuine love brings fourth righteousness from the Holy Spirit, we can not say we walk and darkness but know light.

The Greatest Commandment
…37And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38"This is the great and foremost commandment. 39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'…




21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,…


Love Your Enemies
…43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…




…18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


This is simple...
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
SO heaven and earth has passed already?

and the Messiah has already returned?


I know Im not the smartest guy.... but I think I would have noticed that...

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Well did he fulfill part of the law...that's impossible...and if your "born-again" you would have some concept of being a new creation belonging to a new heaven and a new earth....

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Does the tree of knowledge of good and evil sound like the law to you? It is! And the gospel is clear...don't eat from the "ministry of death"... Written and engraved in stones.
Death?
Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws/Commands, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
Any ways I will make one short post before I have to go. The law is not evil as it came from God. The law is good. The problem with the law is the sin nature (or power of sin) that we are all born with. The law defines what sin is and the sin nature causes us to break that law. The only way to break the sin nature is to place your and my faith in the work of the cross ( the Blood of Jesus, the Ultimate Sacrifice).

If our faith is shifted from the work of the cross and placed in our own works or some other church fad (Daniel fast, forty days of purpose, keeping OT feast, wearing prayer shawls and so on) God will not accept it. The only thing He will accept is the cross and nothing else.

By placing faith in the cross, the power of sin is broken and gives the Holy Spirit the legal right to work in us and through us producing God fruit, which is better than law. Did jesus say that every tree that doe's not keep law shall be cut down and cast in the fire? No, He says that every tree that doe's not bear fruit. I have already explained the difference between law and fruit and fruit is higher than law. The law doe's not command to be a witness but fruit causes you to witness. The law say's that you shall not commit murder. God's morality say's that if you look at your brother with malice in your heart, then you have already committed murder. Fruit causes you to look at those who hate you and use you with love in your heart.

Fruit is better than law because fruit comes from the Holy Spirit.

Merry Christmas.
you fail to realize those in Christ are dead in the flesh and the law have no power over them...if however they sin and remain in that condition(unrepentant) sin gives life to the flesh and the law is waiting to condemn...

Romans 6:1-3King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?



Romans 8:12-14King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Death?
Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws/Commands, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
read the New Testament Hiz...of course the Old Testament is going to point the law of Moses...Christ had not came, died and was raised again...writing the New Covenant in His Blood. I dare you to read the bible and believe it!

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Originally Posted by Hizikyah

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets"

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"

Did heaven and earth pass?

Has the Savior ALREADY fulfilled the prophecy of His 2nd coming?


Unless both of these are yes then the answer is;

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"
Originally Posted by Mitspa

Right He fulfilled it "every jot and tittle" and it has passed away for those who are a New Creation in Him.





SO heaven and earth has passed already?

and the Messiah has already returned?


I know Im not the smartest guy.... but I think I would have noticed that...

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Well did he fulfill part of the law...that's impossible...and if your "born-again" you would have some concept of being a new creation belonging to a new heaven and a new earth....

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Yes... , can we explore these Scriptures? please. Because we may not be as far apart as I thought, but I think there is a misunderstanding. We do change, a new man or woman, yes, but there will be a new heavens and earth, alot of people misunderstand because in hebrew language the is no word for re-new,. You know the term "new moon" it's the same moon, but every month re-sets it's cycle,. When the KINGDOM OF YAH literally descends onto the earth, it will then be RENEWED or NEW! :)

New MAN:

Ezekiyl 36:26-28, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."


NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH:

Revelation 21
ESV

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[SUP]a[/SUP] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[SUP]b[/SUP] and God himself will be with them as their God.[SUP]c[/SUP] 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

1,000 yr reign



Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."


Zecharyah 14:16-21, "Then it will come to pass that everyone who survives of all the nations which came against Yerusalem, will also go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, by keeping the Feasts at The House of Yahweh. And it will be that if any families of the earth will not come up to Yerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then upon them will be no rain. family of Egypt will not come up and present themselves, they also will have no water; they will receive the same plague with which Yahweh of hosts strikes the heathen who will not come up to keep the Feasts at The Tabernacle of Yahweh. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that do not go up to keep the Feasts at The House of Yahweh. In that day there will even be engraved on the bells of the horses: Qodesh La-Yahweh; Holy to Yahweh; and the pots in Yahweh's
Tabernacle will be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Yerusalem and Yahdah will be holy to Yahweh of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them, and boil the meat of the sacrifices in them. And in that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in The House of Yahweh of hosts."


Peacful practice time (1,000 yr reign) is over, satan is loosed, an swiftly destroyed

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

and the eternal kingdom of Yahweh is all that is left!


Isayah 54:8-17, "With a little wrath, I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you: says Yahweh your Redeemer. For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have vowed that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I vowed that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. For the mountains will depart and the hills be removed; but My kindness will not depart from you, nor will My covenant of peace be removed, says Yahweh, Who has mercy on you. O you afflicted, tossed with tempest and not comforted. Behold, I will lay your stones with turquoise, and lay your foundations with sapphires. I will make your windows of rubies, and your gates of crystal, and all your walls of precious stones. All your children will be taught by Yahweh; and great will be the peace of your children. In righteousness you will be established. You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear from terror; for it will not come near you. Behold, they will surely assemble, but it is not from Me. Whoever assembles against you will fall for your sake. Behold, I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame, and forges an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster; devastator, to destroy. No weapon that is formed against you will succeed; and every tongue that will rise against you in judgment, you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Yahweh, and their righteousness is from Me, says Yahweh."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He fulfilled it all...every jot and tittle...and those who are in Him are new creations...ALL THINGs HAVE BECOME NEW!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Please read this.

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Ezekiyl 48:35, "The distance around the city will be eighteen thousand measures; and the name of the city from that day will be: YAHWEH SHAMMAH (Yahweh Is There)."

Revelation 21:4-8 And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away. And He Who sat upon the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me: Write, for these words are true and faithful.And He said to me: It is done! I am Aleph and Tau, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things; and I will be his Father, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and worshipers of false gods, and all liars, will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone--which is the second death."

Revelation 21:9-27, "And there came to me one of the seven malakim who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying: Come, I will show you the brides, the Lamb's wives. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Yahweh Shammah, descending out of heaven from Yahweh, Having the glory of Yahweh. And her light was similar to a most precious stone, just like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a great and high wall, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve malakim, and names written upon them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israyl: On the east, three gates; on the north, three gates; on the south, three gates, and on the west, three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies four square, and the length is as large as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand stadia; about 1,500 miles. The length, and the breadth, and the height of it are equal. And he measured its wall: a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to human measurements, that the malak was using; about 216 feet. And the construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth beryl, The fifth emerald, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth onyx, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, as it were, transparent as glass. And I saw no pagan sanctuary in it; for THE Tabernacle OF YAHWEH, the body of Messiah, was in it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of Yahweh does enlighten it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it. And the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. And the gates of it will not be shut at all by day, for there will be no night there. And they will bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. And there will by no means enter into it anything that defiles, nor works abomination, neither a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name from The Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His malakim."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

King James Bible
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Blessed are those who do his commandments that their power and authority might be in the tree of life and they may enter in through the gates into the city.

King James 2000 Bible
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

American King James Version
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Webster's Bible Translation
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

???Weymouth New Testament???
Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.???

World English Bible
Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

Young's Literal Translation
'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

Blessed are those who do his commandments:

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."


Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
Friend please don't try to impose these false catholic teachers on us...If you want to put these guys opinion above Gods clear and evident Word...that's your business.... I have a question for Catholics who try to impose moral standards on others as if others need to "earn" salvation? Are all these ungodly catholics in leadership saved or lost? does you moral standards apply to their salvation or just to Protestants who reject that these people have any standing in the Kingdom of God?
Never read Church History have you? Those were not the men that began Catholicism. Most of them are disciples of the disciples of the Apostles. They are called "the Apostolic fathers", in the first volume of the 10 volumes of the Anti-Nicene set - they would be Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.

Polycarp sat under John's
tutelage and Irenaeus under Polycarp and Iraeneus quotes Justin Martyr, etc.

Maybe you would have noticed that I don't quote Origen and those after him? Would you know why?

Those that I do post are only quoting from the letters of the Apostles. The PRE-CATHOLICISM and if you knew the Scriptures or Church History at all - you'd have known that.

For every line that these disciples of the Apostles, or disciples of the disciples of the Apostles wrote - a verse from the New Testament goes right along with it.

Church History is recommended reading for this generation because what these men died for - we will probably have to die for in our lifetime. Most all of them were martyred.


And centuries later - martyred by the Roman Catholics - and a bit more than 1000 yrs later, murdered by the Reformists.


Recommended Reading List:

1. The New Testament

2. HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

3. Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Never read Church History have you? Those were not the men that began Catholicism. Most of them are disciples of the disciples of the Apostles. They are called "the Apostolic fathers", in the first volume of the 10 volumes of the Anti-Nicene set - they would be Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.

Polycarp sat under John's
tutelage and Irenaeus under Polycarp and Iraeneus quotes Justin Martyr, etc.

Maybe you would have noticed that I don't quote Origen and those after him? Would you know why?

Those that I do post are only quoting from the letters of the Apostles. The PRE-CATHOLICISM and if you knew the Scriptures or Church History at all - you'd have known that.

For every line that these disciples of the Apostles, or disciples of the disciples of the Apostles wrote - a verse from the New Testament goes right along with it.

Church History is recommended reading for this generation because what these men died for - we will probably have to die for in our lifetime. Most all of them were martyred.


And centuries later - martyred by the Roman Catholics - and a bit more than 1000 yrs later, murdered by the Reformists.


Recommended Reading List:

1. The New Testament

2. HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

3. Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Well these writtings are all basically RCC material to support their own false system and their is NO evidence that any of them had any relations to the Apostles...These men for the most part represent the "falling away" that the scriptures warn was coming....And these writtings have been used for years to prop up the RCC and its attempts to replace Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Word of God...so you can read these fellows if you like...I have read most if not all...and they have no authority as it relates to the truth of scripture... So please keep them in the Catholic library and for new members of your church...they carry no weight here with me ... And also I was wondering about these standards you are trying to put upon others to earn salvation? Do those saving standards apply to the leaders of your own church? Or do they get a pass and only Protestants have to keep these standards you are trying to teach? I don't know of any pope that could possibly be saved according to what you are trying to affirm as a standard for salvation?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
standard for salvation?

I lose focus at times, but we must stay focused on Him.

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

"Has the world got you down?"

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Matt 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom Yahweh wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
This standard is the ONLY true standard.... :)

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
I lose focus at times, but we must stay focused on Him.

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

"Has the world got you down?"

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Matt 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom Yahweh wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"
This standard is the ONLY true standard.... :)

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What about:

"He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words"

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
The RCC claims that they are the Church from the New Testament Apostles and ALL of the ECFs.

So, why don't we throw out everything that Polycarp wrote, or if you read Philippians 4:3 you'll find Clement mentioned by Paul... so we should throw him out too just because the RCC claimed all of the ECFs?

These earliest of the early church 'fathers' as they were called [which I don't agree with but can't change that now] fought the heresies after Paul and John had been died. They fought them just as hard as and with the same Book that the Apostles used.

Polycarp's martyrdom is something you ought to read. They carried the same weight that was handed down to them from John and Paul and you want to throw them out? Paul said, that he knew that as soon as he would leave, ravenous wolves would come in with destructive doctrines and as sure as day - that's what happened and Clement was there as the bishop of Rome, fighting against anything that Paul had not taught. That's why Paul HAD TO go to Rome - to lay such a foundation ... that's why he didn't 'seem to' obey those that prophesied that he shouldn't go to Jerusalem -- because this was one of the Greatest callings on Paul's life. To meet in Jerusalem first to get the Apostles with James there as well to set down the rules for the Gentiles and then get to Rome where he could lay that foundation and write to the other Churches as he did to Timothy.

How sad that you believe that those that sat under these two Apostles and those that sat under them are to be thrown out. Are we to believe the book writers of today with their doctrines more than these men that followed in the same way that the Apostles did?

You people will read and listen to anybody that agrees with you -- but spit out any chpt or verses that 'bother' you from the Scriptures themselves from these Apostles and also those that fought the horrendous fight after them to counter all of the heresies that had already started while John & Paul was still alive. They were quoting them in their writings and you discard them and their fight unto death ..... yet you'll listen to whomever now near 2000 yrs after them? Remarkable.

Well, if you have consistently rejected and cannot see the truth in the Scriptures that these fellow members on this forum are posting - how can you see the Scripture in what the disciples of the Apostles wrote or their disciples ..... THAT would be Impossible and very-very sad.



Yeah, merry christ-mass --- sad stuff.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
What about:

"He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words"

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Right that's those who rejected His saving words... His gospel of grace...now almost all of them where Jews under the law...the law is not of faith...and again I assume you are claiming to be the obedient one? When you have already admitted you break the law of Moses and the law of Christ... so you better get right with the Lord
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
A lot of folks named Clement...and folks named Judas too... But these writtings have NO authority except to catholics who refuse the authority of the scriptures... They have no value to me... And again I ask if this standard you are trying to affirm for salvation is the same for the leaders of your church? Could any of them be saved even by the standard of these letters you are trying to put above scripture? these letters are designed for one thing? To establish the false authority of Rome...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
What about:

"He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words"

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Right that's those who rejected His saving words... His gospel of grace...now almost all of them where Jews under the law...the law is not of faith...and again I assume you are claiming to be the obedient one? When you have already admitted you break the law of Moses and the law of Christ... so you better get right with the Lord
Round and round we go...

You said, "who rejected His saving words"

These are His words:

Matt 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Matt 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Round and round we go...

You said, "who rejected His saving words"

These are His words:

Matt 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Matt 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
Not going there again...but to say He fulfilled all the law and did not leave one jot or tittle unfulfilled :) And even you know that what I am saying is the truth :)
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
Revelation 15:3, "And they sing the Song of Mosheh, the servant of Yahweh, and the Song of the Lamb, saying: Great and marvelous are Your works, Father Yahweh Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of saints!"
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
That's like saying, My pair of duces beats your full-flush or 4 aces.

How long, oh Lord?