Death...The Price of Sin...Paid?

[Butch5]

I agree, the word atonement has also changed over time. The original meaning is to make "at one." When Adam sinned mankind fell under the sway of the Devil. Man needed to be redeemed and this is what Christ did, He redeemed mankind. This ransom payment made man "at one" again with God. However, man still sins, this is where forgiveness comes into play. The Scriptures speak of forgiveness again and again.

The Classic view is really much more than can be explained easily in a few posts. There is a good book on the subject and I can't recall the title. I can get it for you when I get home this weekend. However, I have written a paper on the subject of the Atonement where I compare the three views, the Classic (original), the Satifcation, and the Penal, the latter two of which were later additions to the faith. If you are interested you can find that paper here, "The Atonement."

I was able to recall the title of the book I mentioned, it's called "Christus Victor" by Gustaf Aulén. it addresses three different models of the Atonement. Here is a link to a Wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was able to recall the title of the book I mentioned, it's called "Christus Victor" by Gustaf Aulén. it addresses three different models of the Atonement. Here is a link to a Wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

God gave us one model.

The penalty of sin is death.

This the only way redemption can be paid for remission of sin is death.

this is Gods model. as proven through the sacrificial system of the law

that is all we should worry about.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Scriptures plainly teach, you either go to Heaven for all eternity or you go to Hell for all eternity, everlasting punishment the Bible calls it. Either way Heaven or Hell, they are eternal. The flesh dies, the spirit even though it experiences death from God, Love. still lives on, in Hell with satan and his followers to forever be tormented by the lack of His LOVE and His presence.

The Spirit that is in you will either end up in Heaven for all eternity, or end up in Hell for an everlasting punishment. That is Scriptural brother.

The spirit that is within you will live for eternity, either in Heaven, or not in Heaven.

"Scriptures plainly teach" no such thing.

Are you saying that Scriptures does not teach anything plainly?

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

You do not know the Truth. Tell me, where is Christ now? Where is the Father right now? When Jesus was taken up to Heaven, where did He go? He is preparing the New City Jerusalem, where is He doing that right now? Are we not instructed to pray. Our Father which art in Heaven. Where does Scriptures plainly teach He is at? IN HEAVEN. It is True Heaven will come to Earth when Jesus brings it with Him. Know you not, that wherever the Father is, is where Heaven is at? The Kingdom of Heaven will come to the Earth, This is True, when the New City Jerusalem comes with Jesus Christ, the Father is in that City, that is why no wicked human will be able to enter into that City, because the Father can't look upon sinfulness. Just because the Bible plainly teaches that Heaven will come to Earth, does not mean it does not exist.

And you do error in thinking what i was saying was talking about the location of Heaven, i merely was talking about the Spirit either residing in Heaven for eternity or for eternity separated from Him. But if you would like to discuss the location of Heaven, you or i can start another thread concerning that topic, just let me know.

^i^

 

[JesusistheChrist]

according to scripture two OT men never died physically God took them to heaven, so how was their sin penalty paid if physical death is the penalty?

Really?

Where does SCRIPTURE say that God "took Enoch to heaven"? Nowhere. Instead, here is what SCRIPTURE actually says in relation to Enoch:

"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:21-24)

Again:

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:5-6)

There's not a single mention of "heaven" in either text. What you're doing is called "eisegesis" or reading your own presuppositions, agendas or biases INTO THE TEXT. Again, this same epistle to the Hebrews goes on to say:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Hebrews 11:13)

I know that Yahshua isn't sure exactly who "these all" are, but the text references those who "died in faith" and Enoch, as well, as others, had just finished being addressed in regard to his "faith". Furthermore, if you believe that Enoch was somehow taken to heaven, then what type of body does he presently possess or was his body left behind? If his body was left behind, then why does the text tell us that he "was not found"? I mean, if he left his body behind, then he most certainly would have "been found", wouldn't he? If, on the other hand, you believe that he ascended BODILY to heaven, even though Jesus Himself taught that no man yet had while He was on this earth during His Own Incarnation (John 3:13), then how do you explain the following:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" or the first to be raised from the dead unto eternal life. Do you honestly believe that both Enoch and Elijah PRECEDED CHRIST in relation to eternal life in a glorified body? IOW, do you honestly believe that they somehow circumvented death and received glorified bodies some other way and that Christ's death, burial and resurrection wasn't necessary in their particular cases? Or perhaps you believe that they're presently in heaven with flesh and blood bodies? No matter how you slice it, it simply doesn't work. Philip was "translated" from one place to another in the book of Acts...

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." (Acts 8:39-40)

...and a shipload of Jesus and His disciples was similarly "translated" from one place to another in John's gospel:

"So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went." (John 6:19-21)

Why wouldn't these types of "translations" work in relation to Enoch? I mean, the wording in relation to Philip's "catching away" and being "seen no more" sounds awful similar to that which we read in relation to Enoch's "translation", doesn't it? Was Philip "taken to heaven"? No, he was not...he "was found at Azotus".

Regarding Elijah's catching up to heaven, again, the Bible speaks of "heavens", plural, and we know that there are at least three "heavens":

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth): such an one caught up to the third heaven." (II Corinthians 12:2)

Where does scripture say that Elijah was "caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN"? Nowhere. Also, as I've previously noted, King Jehoram received a letter from Elijah MANY YEARS AFTER Elijah was caught up to heaven:

II Chronicles chapter 21

[12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
[13] But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
[14] Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
[15] And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Seeing how Elijah was allegedly in heaven at this point in time, how did he get his letter to Jehoram? I mean, did he lean over from a top a cloud and fling his letter just right so that the breeze brought it right to Jehoram? I apologize for being facetious, but I'm trying to make a point here. Anyhow, again, during His Incarnation, Jesus said...

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

...and I believe HIM.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really?

Where does SCRIPTURE say that God "took Enoch to heaven"? Nowhere. Instead, here is what SCRIPTURE actually says in relation to Enoch:

"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Genesis 5:21-24)

Again:

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:5-6)

There's not a single mention of "heaven" in either text. What you're doing is called "eisegesis" or reading your own presuppositions, agendas or biases INTO THE TEXT. Again, this same epistle to the Hebrews goes on to say:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Hebrews 11:13)

I know that Yahshua isn't sure exactly who "these all" are, but the text references those who "died in faith" and Enoch, as well, as others, had just finished being addressed in regard to his "faith". Furthermore, if you believe that Enoch was somehow taken to heaven, then what type of body does he presently possess or was his body left behind? If his body was left behind, then why does the text tell us that he "was not found"? I mean, if he left his body behind, then he most certainly would have "been found", wouldn't he? If, on the other hand, you believe that he ascended BODILY to heaven, even though Jesus Himself taught that no man yet had while He was on this earth during His Own Incarnation (John 3:13), then how do you explain the following:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is "the firstfruits of them that slept" or the first to be raised from the dead unto eternal life. Do you honestly believe that both Enoch and Elijah PRECEDED CHRIST in relation to eternal life in a glorified body? IOW, do you honestly believe that they somehow circumvented death and received glorified bodies some other way and that Christ's death, burial and resurrection wasn't necessary in their particular cases? Or perhaps you believe that they're presently in heaven with flesh and blood bodies? No matter how you slice it, it simply doesn't work. Philip was "translated" from one place to another in the book of Acts...

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." (Acts 8:39-40)

...and a shipload of Jesus and His disciples was similarly "translated" from one place to another in John's gospel:

"So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went." (John 6:19-21)

Why wouldn't these types of "translations" work in relation to Enoch? I mean, the wording in relation to Philip's "catching away" and being "seen no more" sounds awful similar to that which we read in relation to Enoch's "translation", doesn't it? Was Philip "taken to heaven". No, he was not...he "was found at Azotus".

Regarding Elijah's catching up to heaven, again, the Bible speaks of "heavens", plural, and we know that there are at least three "heavens":

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth): such an one caught up to the third heaven." (II Corinthians 12:2)

Where does scripture say that Elijah was "caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN"? Nowhere. Also, as I've previously noted, King Jehoram received a letter from Elijah MANY YEARS AFTER Elijah was caught up to heaven:

II Chronicles chapter 21

[12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
[13] But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
[14] Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
[15] And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

Seeing how Elijah was allegedly in heaven at this point in time, how did he get his letter to Jehoram? I mean, did he lean over from a top a cloud and fling his letter just right so that the breeze brought it right to Jehoram? I apologize for being facetious, but I'm trying to make a point here. Anyhow, again, during His Incarnation, Jesus said...

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

...and I believe HIM.

no one has been to heaven heaven till this day. but Christ.

as you said, there are more than one heaven, paradise is one of them, where all souls go when they die physically,.

still does not prove physical death was the penalty of sin, and not spiritual death.

 

[DiscipleDave]

2nd Kings 2:1, 11

And it came to pass when the Lord would TAKE up Elijah into HEAVEN by a whirlwind......

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and parted them asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirl wind INTO HEAVEN.

There is no contradiction as Jesus said that no man has ASCENDED into HEAVEN

Key words....

ASCEND<--Jesus uses
TAKE, went<--applied unto Elijah

Where was Elijah TAKEN.....INTO HEAVEN!

Yes they went into Heaven, But are you not ASSUMING they went to the 3rd Heaven? There are three Heavens which the Bible reveals, there may be even more than that, but the Word of God only reveals 3.

Heaven is our atmosphere, we know this because it is written the birds of Heaven, and the windows of Heaven opened and it rained. It is also written we are going to have a New Heaven and a New Earth. That is not referring to the 3rd Heaven, but our Heaven, the Earths atmosphere. So when you read the verses concerning Elijah into Heaven, you believe (falsely) that it is the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father dwells. The verse which says, no man has ascended into Heaven, that is talking about the 3rd Heaven where the Father Dwells. Elijah did not go to the 3rd Heaven, if he did then Scriptures lie which teach no MAN has ascended into Heaven. We in a like manner will be taken up with Jesus when He returns. NOT INTO HEAVEN, but into the Sky, our atmosphere, to meet Him in the Air, our sky. It is not until we enter into the New City Jerusalem do we into into Heaven. and the New City is not what makes it Heaven, it is Heaven because the Father and the Lord is there.

^i^

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes they went into Heaven, But are you not ASSUMING they went to the 3rd Heaven? There are three Heavens which the Bible reveals, there may be even more than that, but the Word of God only reveals 3.

Heaven is our atmosphere, we know this because it is written the birds of Heaven, and the windows of Heaven opened and it rained. It is also written we are going to have a New Heaven and a New Earth. That is not referring to the 3rd Heaven, but our Heaven, the Earths atmosphere. So when you read the verses concerning Elijah into Heaven, you believe (falsely) that it is the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father dwells. The verse which says, no man has ascended into Heaven, that is talking about the 3rd Heaven where the Father Dwells. Elijah did not go to the 3rd Heaven, if he did then Scriptures lie which teach no MAN has ascended into Heaven. We in a like manner will be taken up with Jesus when He returns. NOT INTO HEAVEN, but into the Sky, our atmosphere, to meet Him in the Air, our sky. It is not until we enter into the New City Jerusalem do we into into Heaven. and the New City is not what makes it Heaven, it is Heaven because the Father and the Lord is there.

^i^

Dave let us think logically for a minute......

1. The three heavens consist
a. Where the birds fly
b. Where the celestial bodies revolve (space)
c. Where God resides<--The heaven is my throne and the earth my footstool....Isaiah 66:1

The word Heaven comes from the a Hebrew word Shawmeh and is the same word used in 2nd Kings (concerning Elijah and where he was taken) and in the Isaiah scripture referenced above......

I am not assuming anything, but making a logically deduced conclusion based upon facts and words brother.....

And I suggest you study the words ASCENDED and TAKEN......the word does not lie, but rather men miss the truth because they do not study and or are not honest with what is actually said!

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes they went into Heaven, But are you not ASSUMING they went to the 3rd Heaven? There are three Heavens which the Bible reveals, there may be even more than that, but the Word of God only reveals 3.

Heaven is our atmosphere, we know this because it is written the birds of Heaven, and the windows of Heaven opened and it rained. It is also written we are going to have a New Heaven and a New Earth. That is not referring to the 3rd Heaven, but our Heaven, the Earths atmosphere. So when you read the verses concerning Elijah into Heaven, you believe (falsely) that it is the Kingdom of Heaven where the Father dwells. The verse which says, no man has ascended into Heaven, that is talking about the 3rd Heaven where the Father Dwells. Elijah did not go to the 3rd Heaven, if he did then Scriptures lie which teach no MAN has ascended into Heaven. We in a like manner will be taken up with Jesus when He returns. NOT INTO HEAVEN, but into the Sky, our atmosphere, to meet Him in the Air, our sky. It is not until we enter into the New City Jerusalem do we into into Heaven. and the New City is not what makes it Heaven, it is Heaven because the Father and the Lord is there.

Dave let us think logically for a minute......

1. The three heavens consist
a. Where the birds fly
b. Where the celestial bodies revolve (space)
c. Where God resides<--The heaven is my throne and the earth my footstool....Isaiah 66:1

This is absolutely True, brother. Well said.

The word Heaven comes from the a Hebrew word Shawmeh and is the same word used in 2nd Kings (concerning Elijah and where he was taken) and in the Isaiah scripture referenced above......

Sorry, i can care less what the Hebrew says, i am not Hebrew. If you read my article on Hebrew and Greek, you would know how i feel the Hebrew and Greek opens up many different interpretations, and it most certainly has caused divisions among the brothers and sisters. i have studied Hebrew and Greek, and i will tell you the Truth and do not lie, those studies had hindered me greatly from coming to the Truth. God revealed to me, that a person does not have to become learned (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the knowledge of the Truth, the Truth is given to those who the Holy Spirit of Truth will reveal it. No matter how hard or how long you study Hebrew and Greek, you will not come to the knowledge of the Truth in God. That knowledge is revealed through and by the Holy Ghost, NOT your own studies. i can care less what the Hebrew says, i only care about what the Word of God says, the same Word that God made sure was interpreted the way He wanted it interpreted to all the english speaking people in the World. i will tell you the Truth if God wanted a person to study the Hebrew and Greek, He would have instructed us to study the original languages in which His Word was written. Do the Apostles instruct this? No. Did Jesus Christ instruct this? NO. Do prophets of today instruct to do this? NO, they do not.

I am not assuming anything, but making a logically deduced conclusion based upon facts and words brother.....

Seriously this made me laugh, not at you, only because of what you said. Tell me How is making a logically deduced conclusion based upon facts and words, NOT your assumption? Is it not what YOU think is True based on all those evidences, they are still your assumption, if it can't be proved by the same evidences you present.

And I suggest you study the words ASCENDED and TAKEN......the word does not lie, but rather men miss the truth because they do not study and or are not honest with what is actually said!

Study what? The Word of God and what it teaches, or are you saying to study the Hebrew and Greek? Don't care what the Hebrew and Greek say and teaches, i care what the Word of God says and teaches. Tell me.

I Tim 6:4 ... . .. . but doting about questions and strifes of words .... .. . By one person saying this word means that, and another says well in Greek it means that, and yet another says well in English it means this. How is that not doting about words and not causing strife?

ASCENDED = to Go up, rise through the air (What one does)

TAKEN = no choice, but other removes them from where they were. (what someone else does to you)

A person does not need to take every word in the Bible to the Hebrew and Greek in order to understand it. What one really needs to do, is to pray to God that the Holy Spirit of Truth starts teaching what the Truth actually is.
When i studied the Hebrew and Greek, i was trying to discover the Truth through my own means.
When the Truth was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit of Truth, Hebrew and Greek became dung. it is NOT the way to Truth. And of a Truth, i wasted hundreds of hours studying them.

God made His Word so easy to understand, that children can come to the Truth. Leave it to this last days generation to think they must become learned, (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the Truth. i know, i use to be on of those who thought you had to become learned, i was dead wrong.

^i^

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Are you saying that Scriptures does not teach anything plainly?

You know that I said no such thing, so don't play with my words...it's unbecoming of one who professes to know Christ.

You do not know the Truth.

Unlike you, yes, I do...as I'll prove momentarily.

Tell me, where is Christ now?

He's seated at the Father's right hand in heaven and also dwelling within His people via His Spirit.

Where is the Father right now?

In heaven and also within His people via His Spirit.

When Jesus was taken up to Heaven, where did He go?

He went to heaven.

He is preparing the New City Jerusalem, where is He doing that right now?

He is NOT "preparing the New City Jerusalem", so your question is invalid. In fact, said "City" has already been prepared:

"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Hebrews 11:16)

"...for He HATH PREPARED for them a city" and NOT "...for He WILL PREPARE for them a city" or "...for He IS PREPARING for them a city".

Futhermore, nearly two thousand years ago, Paul said:

"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:26)

This "Jerusalem which IS ABOVE" was already "free" and it already was or "IS the mother of us all", so what are you going on about? Along these same lines, we read:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," (Hebrews 12:22-23)

Seeing how nearly 2,000 years ago these Hebrew Christians HAD ALREADY COME "unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem", how is Jesus allegedly "preparing the New City Jerusalem...right now"? He isn't...and don't bother citing me John 14:2-3 unless you want to be schooled on that as well.

Are we not instructed to pray. Our Father which art in Heaven. Where does Scriptures plainly teach He is at? IN HEAVEN.

Yes, and...??? Where did I ever state, suggest or imply otherwise? Nowhere...but you're still in error as I'll further prove in just a moment.

It is True Heaven will come to Earth when Jesus brings it with Him.

No, it isn't. When Jesus "comes to earth", He will usher in His Millennial or 1,000 year reign. Well, what happens at the end of said reign? There's no need to guess:

Revelation chapter 20

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

If "Jesus brings heaven to earth with Him when He comes" as you allege, then how the heck does "fire come down FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN" at the end of His Millennial Reign? Like I said, unlike you, I know the truth.

Know you not, that wherever the Father is, is where Heaven is at?

No, I know no such thing and neither do you.

I have some questions for you:

Was "the Father" in Jesus?

Of course, He was.

Well, then why did Jesus pray to His Father "in heaven"?

IOW, "if wherever the Father is, is where heaven is at", as you allege, then was "heaven" in Jesus?

It's nonsense.

The Kingdom of Heaven will come to the Earth, This is True, when the New City Jerusalem comes with Jesus Christ, the Father is in that City, that is why no wicked human will be able to enter into that City, because the Father can't look upon sinfulness. Just because the Bible plainly teaches that Heaven will come to Earth, does not mean it does not exist.

Although it is true that "the kingdom of heaven will come to earth", it is NOT true "that heaven will come to earth". Again, in relation to "the New Jerusalem", we read:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2)

There's a big difference between "the holy city, new Jerusalem, COMING DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN" and "heaven itself coming to earth".

And you do error in thinking what i was saying was talking about the location of Heaven, i merely was talking about the Spirit either residing in Heaven for eternity or for eternity separated from Him. But if you would like to discuss the location of Heaven, you or i can start another thread concerning that topic, just let me know.

^i^

I've erred in nothing. You're just backpedaling. Anyhow, I already know "about the location of heaven", so no new thread is necessary.

Anyhow, my advice to you would be this:

Drop this whole "I'm God's mouthpiece and you'd better all listen to me because I've come to tell you the truth" spiel. Personally, I don't suffer proud heretics lightly and, more importantly, neither does God.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is absolutely True, brother. Well said.



Sorry, i can care less what the Hebrew says, i am not Hebrew. If you read my article on Hebrew and Greek, you would know how i feel the Hebrew and Greek opens up many different interpretations, and it most certainly has caused divisions among the brothers and sisters. i have studied Hebrew and Greek, and i will tell you the Truth and do not lie, those studies had hindered me greatly from coming to the Truth. God revealed to me, that a person does not have to become learned (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the knowledge of the Truth, the Truth is given to those who the Holy Spirit of Truth will reveal it. No matter how hard or how long you study Hebrew and Greek, you will not come to the knowledge of the Truth in God. That knowledge is revealed through and by the Holy Ghost, NOT your own studies. i can care less what the Hebrew says, i only care about what the Word of God says, the same Word that God made sure was interpreted the way He wanted it interpreted to all the english speaking people in the World. i will tell you the Truth if God wanted a person to study the Hebrew and Greek, He would have instructed us to study the original languages in which His Word was written. Do the Apostles instruct this? No. Did Jesus Christ instruct this? NO. Do prophets of today instruct to do this? NO, they do not.



Seriously this made me laugh, not at you, only because of what you said. Tell me How is making a logically deduced conclusion based upon facts and words, NOT your assumption? Is it not what YOU think is True based on all those evidences, they are still your assumption, if it can't be proved by the same evidences you present.



Study what? The Word of God and what it teaches, or are you saying to study the Hebrew and Greek? Don't care what the Hebrew and Greek say and teaches, i care what the Word of God says and teaches. Tell me.

I Tim 6:4 ... . .. . but doting about questions and strifes of words .... .. . By one person saying this word means that, and another says well in Greek it means that, and yet another says well in English it means this. How is that not doting about words and not causing strife?

ASCENDED = to Go up, rise through the air (What one does)

TAKEN = no choice, but other removes them from where they were. (what someone else does to you)

A person does not need to take every word in the Bible to the Hebrew and Greek in order to understand it. What one really needs to do, is to pray to God that the Holy Spirit of Truth starts teaching what the Truth actually is.
When i studied the Hebrew and Greek, i was trying to discover the Truth through my own means.
When the Truth was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit of Truth, Hebrew and Greek became dung. it is NOT the way to Truth. And of a Truth, i wasted hundreds of hours studying them.

God made His Word so easy to understand, that children can come to the Truth. Leave it to this last days generation to think they must become learned, (study Hebrew and Greek) in order to come to the Truth. i know, i use to be on of those who thought you had to become learned, i was dead wrong.

^i^

No offence Dave, but the bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek and to say that some English translation overrides or negates what was originally written can lead to faulty conclusions......To properly understand the scriptures and make LOGICALLY DEDUCED conclusions is as simple as math.....

So, where did Elijah GO.....

Is he floating around SPACE? IS he flying like a BIRD in the air.....?

No where did I say that EVERY word needs to be taken to the Greek and or Hebrew, and no offence but you prove my point by your refusal to acknowledge what the word actually states....and it states clearly that Elijah was taken up to HEAVEN in a whirl wind....

So, it really does not matter to me if you have read the bible 80 times or 150 times as all through history (of translations) men who have read the bible have come to faulty conclusions based upon the King's English......

Not going to argue with you bro.....the English is clear....HEAVEN and the HEBREW is clear THE HEAVEN that is the THRONE OF GOD......reject it if you so choose.........!

 

[psychomom]

Joshua, i just stopped by to tell you...i sorrow with you.

i'm sorry you're suffering loss...and i know our Faithful Father
will take very good care of you, in His merciful and gentle Way. ♥

love,
ellie

 

[pug32]

[SUP]1 Cor. 15:21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24[/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Your friend in Christ
pug32

 

[Yahshua]

Dear brother, I'm glad you've shared some background, it's my belief that as children of the Most High one of our "commissions" in life is to comfort one another. What a merciful instruction we have received! for what man can help another without having helped himself? So, I think this thread you started is opportunity to give and receive "hope". What is hope? Some say they hope to win the lottery. Is that hope? No. That's wishful thinking. Hope is explained this way in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Have you noticed how the adversary uses distraction at times to deceive us? His goal is to keep our minds on things that have no value. Birthdays, for instance, we all have 1. Let that sink in....we have 1, not 1 every year! My intent is not to rebuke you my brother, merely to point out how undesired things seem especially cruel when they happen on the anniversary of when we were born. Why is that? Many people I have encountered over the years have let a fond attachment to the day they were born breed falsehoods of which the most popular "they don't love me they forgot my birthday, they don't care!" Likewise, the loss of a loved one on that day can open the door to thoughts of despair, revisited every year. One of my brothers died suddenly from a heart attack, age 50, on my Mom's 80th birthday.
**********************************************************************************

John11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does this speak to eternity? Can anyone say, all who have been born of a woman have a beginning , yet has no end? For there is One who is self existing without beginning or end, and His creations have been made/created by/for Him, He alone has power to grant eternal life. I conclude we are not eternal by reason of being birthed, (we do not self exist) yet we hope for the promise, as our Messiah states here, (of a future day) when we "trade" this corruptible body for an incorruptible body, where the adversary would that we cherish the ragged tent we have now, not seeing the mansion that awaits all who persevere. Reference to "never die"(John 11:26) is not the same (imo) as "not sleep" which we do sometimes call death. If we could think of it as...moving day!

Messiah did drink that cup, that is finished. He is the "first born" of the brethren, and has taken the position and responsibilities of firstborn. I find it is particularly helpful to study what firstborn means in Hebrew culture, and the examples of firstborn in scripture.

He is the author and finisher of our faith, He has begun a work in us, and only He knows when that work is complete. The world is full of deception, we sometimes think feelings are facts, it's part of being human. Paul is so encouraging, don't you think? I love what Messiah revealed through Paul in chapter 4 of Corinthians.

(a snippet)8-12 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Peace and grace to you brother~k

Thank You Karraster. I never placed much importance in celebrating my birthday after 8yrs old as it was associated with death from that point on. But others would remind me of the the day year after year (celebrating it) while I would've rather forgotten about it. And as I gained more knowledge of scripture throughout the years, my birthday would remind me more and more of the 1st life I still had that I didn't want; the life that inevitably leads to death. And this is why it actually causes me trouble; death being especially sharp around my (fleshy) birthday because it reminds me of that inevitability. As a practical matter, there is no objective point to life if death is attached to it as the book of Ecclesiastes says. Death is my enemy.

I highlighted the sections of your post that stood out...

Indeed, I also believe that God alone grants eternal life; the only one with life within himself. And that it is only through him we achieve eternal life (what I'll call "the 2nd life"). So do you believe we only achieve this 2nd life *after* the 1st life has gone to "sleep" (even though such a thing may be "secured" now)? What do you think Romans 6:3-4?

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

So we don't have this 2nd life yet, even if we are baptized in Christ death now?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Yahshua]

All flesh shall die, it is from the Earth and will return to dust, click on my website below, click the article Where After Death? The Two who were taken will still die in the flesh. The two witness that are yet to come, will have their Spirits within them. Even as John the Baptist had the the Spirit of elijah in him.
When Christ comes for the Church, the day He shows up all those who died prior to that point and were SAVED, wake from their sleep and rise from their resting place and go to be with Jesus in the Air. Also at this time those who are alive and are judged to be True Christians, the Spirit that is in them immediately comes out of the body, and that flesh is dead. The person dies and the Spirit becomes as the Angels are. When Christ shows up the alive Christians their flesh will immediately die. For flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. but the Spirit that is in you, and is you, will come out of that flesh, and receive from Jesus their NEW Body, that of like the Angels of God and Jesus. Glorified bodies, NOT flesh from the Earth, but flesh from the Kingdom of Heaven.

Thanks for your explanation DiscipleDave, but I'm having a bit of a problem with the section I highlighted...

I *completely* agree that flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of Heaven as that's scripture...but I don't know; to say their flesh will immediately "die" seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

In this passage, sleep was a metaphor for death or "perishing", and the fact that there's a contrast between being "sleep" (i.e. dead) and being "changed" says to me that they're not the same. So this says to be some will not die (as we all understand death/sleep to mean "this body expiring")...instead, some will be transformed instantly from this corrupt body to incorruptible. In other words, some will not see the grave at all...and it's these "mysterious" few who I'm VERY curious about right now.

 

[Yahshua]

I agree, the word atonement has also changed over time. The original meaning is to make "at one." When Adam sinned mankind fell under the sway of the Devil. Man needed to be redeemed and this is what Christ did, He redeemed mankind. This ransom payment made man "at one" again with God. However, man still sins, this is where forgiveness comes into play. The Scriptures speak of forgiveness again and again.

The Classic view is really much more than can be explained easily in a few posts. There is a good book on the subject and I can't recall the title. I can get it for you when I get home this weekend. However, I have written a paper on the subject of the Atonement where I compare the three views, the Classic (original), the Satifcation, and the Penal, the latter two of which were later additions to the faith. If you are interested you can find that paper here, "The Atonement."

Hi Butch5 and thanks for your reply and for the paper to read. And actually I think you summarize your point nicely on your very first page. I'd like to focus on the consequence (death) for a second since that's the thrust of this thread...

Excerpt from Page 1: "Ransom View"

It holds that, in the Garden, Adam and Eve had a
choice regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could
choose to obey God and not eat of the tree, or they could choose to adhere
to Satan’s words and eat. Well, we all know the choice they made. According
to the Ransom View, when Adam and Eve decided to eat, they fell under his
control. Essentially, they became slaves to his will. Since they were slaves,
all of their offspring would also be born bound to the same conditions. At
this point, they had no hope of escape and were condemned. By order of
creation, all men were condemned to die. However, God was willing to buy
back - or ransom - what was His: mankind. This ransom would require one
to die in man’s place. Jesus offered to be that ransom; He offered himself to
God as a sacrifice, to lay down His life in man’s place to purchase back what had been lost.

Notwithstanding the particular view, note that the consequence is still death; and Christ still died "in man's place". By this view:

1. Adam sinned/chose wrongly
2. Mankind was placed under Satan control
3. Enslaved mankind sins
4. The wage of sin is death
5. Mankind dies as a consequence
6. Christ died to set free (ransom) mankind
7. (So that) Mankind is no longer under satan's control

But if we follow this out would it also be true that...

7. Freed mankind is no longer slave to satan and sin
8. Thus Mankind (if it no longer sins) no longer dies; consequences avoided

In other words, by this view do you believe that in order to not die one would have to (of course) believe in Christ but also stop sinning (essentially my 2nd question from the OP)? Or do you believe that because of mankind's past sin (and it's effect in corrupting this flesh) *all* people still must return to the grave (which still leaves me to wonder about those mysterious few of 1 Corinthians 15:51 who never "sleep"/die)?

----

Forgive me guys. The only reason why I'm pressing everyone with questions is because of this "mysterious few", as they give me hope that some people avoid "expiration" altogether, as if these few achieve the 2nd life *before* their 1st life ends...but because the rest of scripture can't be broken, there has to be a way they avoid "sleep"...but still satisfy the death appointed for all people.

So thank you for helping me.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Are you saying that Scriptures does not teach anything plainly?

You know that I said no such thing, so don't play with my words...it's unbecoming of one who professes to know Christ.

It was a sincere question. The reason i asked the question because i did not know the answer to it, Hence the reason i asked the question. I did not say that you said that, i clearly asked if that is what you are saying. it was a Question and not a statement. Please notice the question mark after my sentence.

Tell me, where is Christ now?

He's seated at the Father's right hand in heaven and also dwelling within His people via His Spiri

Where is the Father right now?

In heaven and also within His people via His Spirit.

When Jesus was taken up to Heaven, where did He go?

He went to heaven.

i asked these Questions because you said this:

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

This would indicate to all who read what you yourself wrote to mean you don't think there is a Heaven, that as you just said. Heaven is merely an intermediary place. Well if you believe what you just said then you do not believe it is a physical place that exist right now. Therefore i asked you those questions. Are you now saying it is NOT merely an intermediary place?

He is preparing the New City Jerusalem, where is He doing that right now?

He is NOT "preparing the New City Jerusalem", so your question is invalid. In fact, said "City" has already been prepared:

"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Hebrews 11:16)

"...for He HATH PREPARED for them a city" and NOT "...for He WILL PREPARE for them a city" or "...for He IS PREPARING for them a city".

He hath prepared for them a city, and even now is still preparing a city for them.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So then Scriptures plainly teach, that at the time of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago the place that would be prepared, was not yet completed, Jesus Himself said He was going to prepare a place for us, i know that place is the New City Jerusalem. You say He is NOT preparing the New City Jerusalem, which is contrary to the Word of God. Tell me then, When Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us, what place you think He was talking about? Can't be the Kingdom of Heaven, that has existed before the Earth was even created. So what was it that Jesus was going to go into Heaven to prepare for us. What Holy City did those of old desire to see and enter into?

^i^

YOu

 

[DiscipleDave]

Are we not instructed to pray. Our Father which art in Heaven. Where does Scriptures plainly teach He is at? IN HEAVEN.

Yes, and...??? Where did I ever state, suggest or imply otherwise? Nowhere...but you're still in error as I'll further prove in just a moment.

You implied it, when you said Heaven was merely an intermediary place.

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

It is True Heaven will come to Earth when Jesus brings it with Him.

No, it isn't. When Jesus "comes to earth", He will usher in His Millennial or 1,000 year reign. Well, what happens at the end of said reign? There's no need to guess:

Friend i mean no offense to you, but how old are you. It helps to know what age range one is dealing with, as to know how to respond. up to this very point, i now believe you are very young. If you won't tell me your age range, then it only proves my assumption.

i said it is True that Heaven will come to Earth when Jesus brings it with Him, which i was agreeing with what you said. Then you reply back "No, it isn't. When Jesus "comes to earth", He will usher in His Millennial or 1,000 year reign." Which is what you also said when you said this:

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

Are you now changing what you previously said the Kingdom of Heaven will not come to the Earth when Jesus returns? This is what makes me think you are very young my friend. One post you said He will, the next you say He won't even when i agreed with you. Which is? When Jesus returns, is going to establish a new Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth or is He not going to?

^i^

 

[Yahshua]

Yahshua,

you are definitely a 'thinker', and my wife and I enjoy your thought process
and your unself-consciencious seeking of our Father's truths.

your manner is refreshing, as you never seem to put yourself above others.

our approach to solving Spiritual Knowledge is to go to the most simplistic
scriptures, start there, and make sure that we have the foundation to
begin our journey for a deeper knowledge and understanding.

1Tim.6:16.
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

we know from this scripture that Christ only has immorality, so that would 'exclude'
Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and any other fleshly being.
one of the most important principles is that one scripture cannot disannul another,
otherwise we have confusion.

in the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appear, the text plainly says,
'tell no man of the vision', and vision by definition is a future event.

the original LIE from satan is that, 'you shall not surely die' - yet, ALL flesh dies,
'for the wages of sin is death - and all have sinned'.
there are so many variations of the GREAT LIE, and it is all through -
'world religion and Christianity is certainly not excluded -
(reincarnation-the happy hunting grounds-the seventy virgins-you die and
immediately go to heaven or hell, this is a message that we 'really don't die'...

we must be cautious always in interpretation, for instance the account of Elijah
being taken to heaven in a whirlwind, if you look up the definition of heaven,
it can be interpreted in (3)ways.

we hope that we have helped you in some way, and we surely look forward
to more of your posts.

No I truly appreciate your post OldThenNew, as well as others (and I hope to reply to each one shortly)..with everyone's replies and perspectives I think I'm honing in on my true question and it involves 1 Corinthians 15:51 and the fact these few don't "sleep".

Yes let's exclude Moses Elijah and Enoch for this conversation as there seems to be disagreement about their fates and I don't want to seem like I'm exclusively standing on them as proof of my questions. Essentially I'm not sure about this stuff but like I said in my previous post it would appear there's hope found in a few not "sleeping". Truly, this appears to be a "secret/mystery" like Paul described it in 1 Corinthians 15:51...one I'm compelled to solve lately lol (for obvious reasons).

True. Only Christ has immortality. Scripture says...

John 5:26

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

But scripture also says...

1 Corinthians 15:45

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

We know that outside of Christ, all men are doomed to death. But in Christ...

Life - John 1:4

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

No Darkness - 1 John 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

No Sin - 1 John 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So aren't we in Christ as the body of Christ to participate in these things now?


...You know...it may be a situation where these few who do not "sleep" remain alive simply out of coincidence (it just being time for Christ to return, and they haven't die/slept yet). But then when I read Paul's words I get the impression that there's something significant about this group. Why does he say "behold I tell you a mystery..."? Maybe I'm reading too much into this...Maybe that's all Paul is saying. Out of the billions of people alive, there are souls being saved every day...so it would seem impossible *not* to have a remainder of believers alive and remaining when Christ returns.

But that still begs the question: "how do these remaining people fulfill their death" if we know scripture can't be broken (so they must die)? The only explanation that makes sense to me is that their death by faith must count towards it, right?

Colossians 3:3

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

It was a sincere question. The reason i asked the question because i did not know the answer to it, Hence the reason i asked the question. I did not say that you said that, i clearly asked if that is what you are saying. it was a Question and not a statement. Please notice the question mark after my sentence.

Hi, DiscipleDave.

Here are your original comments and my original response to the same:

Scriptures plainly teach, you either go to Heaven for all eternity or you go to Hell for all eternity, everlasting punishment the Bible calls it. Either way Heaven or Hell, they are eternal. The flesh dies, the spirit even though it experiences death from God, Love. still lives on, in Hell with satan and his followers to forever be tormented by the lack of His LOVE and His presence.

The Spirit that is in you will either end up in Heaven for all eternity, or end up in Hell for an everlasting punishment. That is Scriptural brother.

The spirit that is within you will live for eternity, either in Heaven, or not in Heaven.

^i^

"Scriptures plainly teach" no such thing.

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

When I said "'Scriptures plainly teach' no such thing", I was specifically referring to that which you had already stated that "scriptures plainly teach":

That the Christian ("you") or his/her "spirit" will "end up" or "live IN HEAVEN for all eternity".

Again, THIS is patently false and THIS is specifically what I was addressing. When I said that "heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH", I was not stating, suggesting or implying that HEAVEN ITSELF will somehow disappear when Christ returns, but rather that "heaven is merely an intermediary place" FOR THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD. IOW, they will not stay IN HEAVEN for ever, but will instead RETURN FROM HEAVEN with Jesus at His second coming. In fairness to you, now that you've explained yourself, I could have made that more clear in my original response, but it's not always that easy to recognize or foresee how what one intends to say might be misconstrued if it isn't said in precisely the right manner. For that, in hindsight, I apologize and I'll be more careful in the future to clarify my points to avoid possible confusion. Just for the record, I do not believe that HEAVEN ITSELF is only an "intermediary place" in that it will somehow cease to exist at some point in time, but instead I believe that heaven is only an "intermediary place" for the righteous dead in that they will NOT "end up or live there for all eternity". Again, at Christ's second coming, He will bring the righteous dead with Him and they will receive their glorified bodies at that point in time and those who belong to Christ and who yet remain alive will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and be caught up to meet both Jesus and the righteous dead in the air ONLY TO THEN RETURN RIGHT HERE TO EARTH AND NOT TO RETURN BACK TO HEAVEN FOR ALL ETERNITY. I'll be happy to provide scriptural support for what I just said if need be.

i asked these Questions because you said this:

No Christian will "go to Heaven for all eternity" as Heaven is merely an intermediary place where the righteous dead go until the time comes that Christ returns to establish the kingdom of God RIGHT HERE ON EARTH. You know, "thy kingdom COME, thy will be done IN EARTH as it is in heaven" and all that. Yes, contrary to what you stated, "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH".

This would indicate to all who read what you yourself wrote to mean you don't think there is a Heaven, that as you just said. Heaven is merely an intermediary place. Well if you believe what you just said then you do not believe it is a physical place that exist right now. Therefore i asked you those questions. Are you now saying it is NOT merely an intermediary place?

Again, see my clarification as given above.

He hath prepared for them a city, and even now is still preparing a city for them.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to preparea place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So then Scriptures plainly teach, that at the time of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago the place that would be prepared, was not yet completed, Jesus Himself said He was going to prepare a place for us, i know that place is the New City Jerusalem. You say He is NOT preparing the New City Jerusalem, which is contrary to the Word of God. Tell me then, When Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us, what place you think He was talking about? Can't be the Kingdom of Heaven, that has existed before the Earth was even created. So what was it that Jesus was going to go into Heaven to prepare for us. What Holy City did those of old desire to see and enter into?

^i^

There's neither a direct mention of or even a slight allusion to "the New City Jerusalem" in what you just cited from John's gospel. Contrary to what you're claiming, CONTEXTUALLY, Jesus was speaking of "my Father's house" and I can easily show you, from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that "my Father's house" is A TEMPLE and NOT 'the New City Jerusalem" as you allege. Furthermore, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "mansions" would much better be translated as "rooms" or "dwellings". IOW, when Christ returns as the "son of David", He will sit within a rebuilt TEMPLE in Jerusalem from which He will rule over the world. Having also promised the very people whom He was actually speaking to in what you cited from John's gospel "that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28), Jesus was here only telling them where their place of residency would be at this precise time. IOW, even as Christ Himself will be reigning from His "Father's house"...

Isaiah chapter 2

[1] the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
[2] And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
[3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
[4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah chapter 4

[1] But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
[2] And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
[3] And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

...so, too, will the Apostles be reigning from there as well and residing in "rooms" or "dwellings" within "the Father's house" or THE TEMPLE.