HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

[Hizikyah]

Re: Say what???

So if that's True .... WHY ON EARTH DID JOHN AND WHOMEVER ELSE YOU TRUST NOT USE HEBREW NAMES FOR GOD AND CHRIST INSTEAD OF GREEK?????

Also - I did not call you evil for questioning JUST why Paul had Timothy circumcised but for your over-all bashing of the Apostle to the Gentiles who TWICE went to the Jerusalem Council -- James, Peter and Co to get what they felt that should be mandatory for the Gentiles that Paul was 'called to' bring the Gospel to - besides being called to ROME to preach before kings - and why would JESUS send an X-Pharisee to the GENTILES ... because he was the best of the best to explain the NEW covenant compared to the OLD covenant to ALL - both Jew and Gentile because HE [GOD] new that they'd be harrassed by the Judaisers and only PAUL could do that sort of APOLOGETICS

Quote you: "when Paul was a man that made mistakes, does have some amazing amazing truth is his writings but he is not the Messiah, there is only one Messiah."

According to you and those like you ONLY. Paul made NO MISTAKES in his writings of SCRIPTURE but yet you trust others that wrote in GREEK.

Poppy-cosh ---- You gave a ton of reasons why you don't like Paul and I knew those reasons since I've been on the internet in 2002 and dealt with others that suddenly became JEWISH or HEBREW speaking and you have the SAME reasons as they did/do for throwing out Paul.

I do not go along with OSAS and gave my reasons why along with you - side-by-side - and with the others in that debate .... but to throw out Paul and say that MANY of his Letters were disposable borders on or many be blasphemy.

ALL WRITERS OF THE NEW COVENANT WROTE IN GREEK --- MOST OF THEM JEWS, YET DIDN'T WRITE IN HEBREW - with only maybe one exception -- some think that Matthew wrote in Hebrew and had it re-written into the GREEK that THEOS/GOD wanted HIS BOOK written in.

It's GOD'S fault that we don't speak HEBREW Names and such - and not Paul's etc. and many have left the N.T. COMPLETELY AND BECAME JUST JEWS BECAUSE OF THIS and I fear for you that you will also as well as anyone else on this site that are mixing the two Covenants together ... though I believe with all of my heart that our Bible, as we call it, is ONE BOOK and not TWO.

It's you that fits into Peter's statement about Paul's teachings - as he wrote that in GREEK. GOD planned before the foundation of the world to be a "Greek-Freak" so - so are we. "In the fulness of times ....." HE factored into that time of when He'd send the Son ALSO when the Greek was the International language and most exact language --- so go ahead with reverting the whole of the N.T. to the language that GOD didn't choose for His Son first Coming and lift yourself above ALL of the Apostles and other writers of GOD'S WORD just so you can be a tad higher than the rest of us poor slobs that don't have YOUR supreme revelation about how GOD SHOULD HAVE HAD IT WRITTEN ... in Hebrew and without PAUL.

That's why this borders on blasphemy against The Word of GOD made flesh Who IS GOD and by Who's Spirit the O.T. Prophets wrote about His Own Coming and what He would do while in the flesh and after ... and wrote it in GREEK after He Came and then Ascended.

Silly self-contradictory reply you gave me - in Every way!

One quote one time where I said people must use Hebrew...

Rather I sad that I balieve all should call upon His name..

Here is His name in Hebrew: יהוה

Here is His name in English: YHWH

Did I ever say I hate/dislike greek? No I study konie greek plenty, for as you said the majority of the "NT" is in greek. However I will say I prefer the Hebrew Matt over the greek Matt because the greek Matt has 3 critical errors that I know of, I want no errors.

How is it that I am disliked here for obeying Yah

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the Name of Yahweh your strength to bring it to nothing, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who brings it to nothing."

7723 - shav
NAS Exhaustive Concordance - Word Origin from an unused word - Definition: emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Brown-Driver-Briggs שָׁוְא noun [masculine] emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood - 1a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity - 1b) emptiness of speech, lying - 1c) worthlessness (of conduct)

Yeremyah 12:14-17, "This is what Yahweh says against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israyl to inherit: Behold, I will pluck them up from off their land, and I will pluck up the house of Yahdah from among them. And it will come to pass, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them, and bring them back; everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it will come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to vow by My Name, saying; As surely as Yahweh lives--as they once taught My people to vow by Baal then they will be established in the midst of My people. But if they do not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, says Yahweh."

Yeremyah 16:19-21, "O Yahweh, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles will come to You from the ends of the earth, and will say: Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies and vanity of no use at all! Do men make gods for themselves? Yes, but they are powerless! Therefore behold, I will make them to know--this time I will teach them My power and might; and they will know that My Name is Yahweh!"

Psalm 116:13, "We will take the cup of salvation, and we will call upon Your Name, O Yahweh."

and not obeying a pharisee/Sanhedrin law?

The Jewish Encyclopedia Volume 9, pages 162-163
The restriction upon communicating the Name proper probably originated in Oriental etiquette; in the East even a teacher was not called by name. For naming his master Elisha, Gehazi was punished with leprosy (II Kings viii. 5; Sanh. 100a). After the death of the high priest Simeon the Righteous, forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple, the priests ceased to pronounce the Name (Yoma 39b). From that time the pronunciation of the Name was prohibited. "Whoever pronounces the Name forfeits his portion in the future world" (Sanhedrin xi. 1). Hananiah ben Teradion was punished for teaching his disciples the pronunciation of the Name (`Ab. Zarah 17b).

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

How am I "bad" for speaking and promoting something that is clearly important to Him? It is 3rd Commandment.

This is the last thing the Messiah said to Sanhedrin the after leaving "the temple"

Mattithyah 23:39, "For I say to you: From this moment you will not see Me, until you say: Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of Yahweh!"

 

[ChristIsGod]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

One more time - Paul became "all things to all men so that he could win them to Christ". That's IT and it's Divine!!

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul was mentioned by PETER who PAUL had to STRAIGHTEN OUT over JUDAISISM and so PETER now calls him "our Beloved Brother" and says that Paul needing to bring in the NEW Covenant from the OLD is THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD and Paul's words MOST TWISTED because of the two EXTREMES that we see in the NEW COVENANT BOOK about those who said, "Since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and be OSAS" [paraphrase of Paul's words] and he had to constantly contend with those that wanted to bring them back under the 613 Laws.

THAT'S why Peter singles out Paul ...................................................

which has already been explained to you by a number of the members here but you and whomever else would rather say that we "worship Paul" and that Paul was full of errors in his commissioned writing of his letters which Peter calls "Scripture".

So I have never heard or considered this angle before, so you suppose it was a personal issue? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[ISeeYou]

WE DON'T WORSHIP PAUL - HE IS JUST ONE OF THE WRITERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT ARE EQUAL TO THE OTHERS FOR AUTHORITATIVELY WRITING THE WORD OF GOD THAT WE CALL THE NEW COVENANT.


Paul only differed in that he was especially elected by Messiah-Himself-Personally, to be a witness to the Gentiles and kings, etc..

If we ignore what Messiah Himself Personally said about Paul - we've missed HIS WORDS.


[Not yelling at you - just can't go into colors and other forms of Emphasis today and sometimes caps save time - which I have little of today.]

Good post sis, and I understand why that was said, its because strawmen are necessary here.

Accepting the writings of Paul must eventually become the very worship of Paul (to help sandbag and seal the argument)

And I was thinking about this and another thing, which includes both Peter and Paul.

Its like the is one institution that somewhat hi- jacks Peter (to itself) as some kind of Peter's Chair (as if given a Seat) but in more of a Simony sort of way, where it must be seen as the spiritual lineage of all things (given the Power that comes through their own hands) to their own there. And these ofcourse accept Paul but they work to move him out of the way as irrelent to themselves (as Peter must remain in that Seat for them to sit upon). So Paul doesnt get in their way so much in their Hijacking Peter's Chair which is necessary to prosper deceitfully I alway loved it that God worked worked around them through Annanias, where that way of doing things overthrew that mentality and cleared the way in unbinding the unboundable word of God to itself. So I was just looking at the two largest players in Jesus Christ. Where the one can be understood as using the words spoken to Peter in such a way to gain their own power over through the deceitful "use of" an apostle. To be so used to in that manner, and so likewise so use others . So I would suppose its almost necessary bring the other under, which I would think we would be to bind Paul.

I am actually glad for the current conflict because it has worked to get me to think about the overall picture of things as things begin to unfold. Just gives me more to consider I guess.

God bless you in Christ Jesus the Lord

 

[Hizikyah]

the NEW COVENANT BOOK about those who said, "Since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and be OSAS" [paraphrase of Paul's words] and he had to constantly contend with those that wanted to bring them back under the 613 Laws.

Hold on.... that is not a paraphrase that is a direct twisting...

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

"Since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and be OSAS" [paraphrase of Paul's words]

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

OUT OF CONTROL...and I know I know I will still come out as being the "bad guy" because I said something.....

 

[john832]

Hold on.... that is not a paraphrase that is a direct twisting...

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"



Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

OUT OF CONTROL...and I know I know I will still come out as being the "bad guy" because I said something.....

***Sarcasm Alert***

No, you are the bad guy because you, like Paul, think the Law is holy and just and good and spiritual.

***End Sarcasm***

 

[ChristIsGod]

So I have never heard or considered this angle before, so you suppose it was a personal issue? Or am I misunderstanding you?

No, it was a Doctrinal issue. Paul was stuck in the hard place of having to fellowship with both Jews which he agreed with and trying to win the Gentiles as he was 'commissioned by Messiah to do' and some people couldn't split the two from their minds --- as Paul rebuked the Corinthians and others for using Grace as an excuse to sin and Also - rebuke those that separated themselves from the Gentiles when they themselves began to see the New Covenant and lived for the most part, like Gentiles but when those from Jerusalem, James & Co came in, Peter separated himself from the Gentiles to sit with them and act Jewish again.

There's nothing wrong with being Jewish and Paul remained Jewish - but he also brought the Gentiles the NEW Covenant - and knew which parts of the LAW that had been fulfilled by Christ's coming and which were not yet fulfilled by Christ's coming.

He was in the hardest place that any man has ever been in. Constantly having to defend himself against the Pharisees that he was Jewish and did not break the laws of God from his new Messiah given understanding of what the LAW was/is.

But Christ called him to speak to Kings and Gentiles about the New Covenant as well. How you and the HRM people can't see how annoited that man was is sickening - to tell you the truth and if ANYONE - even my closest friends came against JOHN the way you've come against PAUL I would be just as upset with them and would know that eventually - if they didn't reconsider -- that I, by Scripture alone, would have to separated from fellowship with them.

BTW - "the elect" are OSAS according to that one word --- His "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of who would love and obey Him unto their END .... once mentioned by Peter "Elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father" and twice by Paul ... "His people who He FOREKNEW" [when speaking about Israel] Romans 11 and again in Romans 8 "for those whom He FOREKNEW - HE ....".

The problem is --- HE said that "IF it were possible, even the 'elect' would be deceived" the key words there is "IF" it were possible ---- and the other key word is "elect" --- so from that, we know that if one IS deceived, they may not be His Elect .... but they're still breathing, so there's time for them to be UNDECEIVED --- but time is short - as you may well know. Eventually the 5 foolish virgins will ask the 5 wise for more OIL and they'll be told to go buy from those that sell [sarcasm, I think] and you know what happened to those unwise 5 after that.

To deny any writer of His N.T. that HE commissioned as writers of HIS WORDS BY HIS SPIRIT is being in a Very Dangerous Territory.


I have to go now but will return later to see if we can talk more together.

But I can't wish you, Shalom ---- yet ---- but I can say that I Love you and all else here... sarcasm and all! [I don't have a heart to post] will have to steal one from psych-mom.

Hi Mom Could you send me a heart. [j/k] I'll steal one somewheres.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Amen!

 

[Elin]

Hi, Hizikyah.

Once more, by pulling Paul's words TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT, you've foolishly sought to attach a meaning to his words which was NEVER his intent. Here is your "quote" IN CONTEXT:

I Corinthians chapter 10

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
[13] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
[14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
[15] I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
[16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
[17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
[18] Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?
[19] What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
[22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
[23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
[24] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
[25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
[26] For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
[27] If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
[28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
[29] Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
[30] For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
[31] Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
[32] Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
[33] Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

For crying out loud, Hizikyah, Paul had JUST FINISHED warning his readers about such things as "idolatry", "fornication", "tempting Christ" and "murmuring", so how the hell do you even suggest that he was somehow teaching "lawlessness"? It's nonsense and you really do need to cease from the same. Paul's comment about "all things being lawful to him" was in direct relation to the eating of meats which he could give thanks for in good conscience towards God. Even then, Paul would abstain from the same FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE if a weaker brother shared not the same knowledge that he had (I Corinthians 8:13). Anyhow, please stop pulling Paul's words OUT OF CONTEXT and butchering the same. Thank you.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JesusistheChrist again.

 

[ChristIsGod]

***Sarcasm Alert***

No, you are the bad guy because you, like Paul, think the Law is holy and just and good and spiritual.

***End Sarcasm***

No sarcasm here - You are dead wrong - if you are implying that I or some others on this thread feel that way.

I see The Book as ONE BOOK - parts fulfilled by Christ and some parts not yet fulfilled by Christ, of all that "is written" from the O.T. - some not fulfilled by some of us.

Francis Shaeffer's wife Edith, wrote a book, by the title of "Christianity is Jewish" and so have a number of ministries that many of us would recognise - Such as those that put out "Our Daily Bread" monthly devotional booklets that many protestant churches order for their members.

Tisk tisk - I have enough of those books and according to Romans 11 {PAUL} Gentiles are the Wild olive tree grafted into 'their' Natural Olive Tree and not the other way around --- but, "the some thing that are hard to understand" are the very things that this thread and other threads are about.

Where the Old Covenant left off and how and where The New Covenant began and what it entails and commands of us.

 

[Elin]

I am not a Jew either.

But one thing people misunderstand, IMO, is something you hinted at I think...

I tried to bring it up here when I first came to this site, but none considered it and there me under the bus...

So in the hebrew language, which the "OT" Scriptures and
some of the "NT" was written in there is not word for re-new, there is only new.

The NT was nowhere written in Hebrew.

That is pure speculation.

Example:

"New Moon" it is the same "moon" every 30 days, but it starts it's cycle over every 30 days... Again
is not a literal new moon... People misunderstand/don't understand the foresight of Yah, that He knew all that would happen before it did,
it's not like He realized one day, oh I messed up, I have to change this,
no but rather the physical priesthood and animal sacrifice were a placeholder, "the weak and unprofitable" a thing for the people to "have faith/works in" before Messiah came, but it was the foresight of Messiah, a way for them to understand a need for Him while letting the people have their go a it.

However, authoritative NT teaching translates "new" in the Hebrew of Jer 31:31,
"I will make a new (chadash) covenant" as kainos (Heb 8:8; Lk 22:20), which means
"new in nature, quality, form", and does not translate it anakainoo which means "renew,"
which the NT writers would have done if that is what "new" covenant meant.

According to authoritative NT teaching, the "new" covenant of Jer 31:31, Lk 22:20
is kainos--new in nature, it is not a "renewal" (ana-kainoo) or "making new" of anything.

This Psalm explains it so so so perfectly IMO, better than I ever could:

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

"My covenant will stand fast with Him"

"My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie"[/

If He does not change and He does not lie, how is all the Instructions non-binding?

Keeping in mind that all of this refers to the Davidic covenant (2Sa 7:5-16) of which
every word is fulfilled, and it "stands fast" forever.

However, the Mosaic covenant does not.
It was broken and annulled by disobedience (Jer 11:3-5, 8, 10), which is why we have a new covenant.

Man may break covenant with Yah, but as Yah says, "My covenant I will not break".

This refers to the Davidic covenant.

And yes, God does not break and annul covenants, it is men who do so by their disobedience of them,
as they did with the Mosaic covenant, so God promised a new(kainos) covenant (Heb 8:7-8),
not a renewed (anakainoo) covenant, which we now have in Jesus Christ (Lk 22:20).

 

[ChristIsGod]

Hold on.... that is not a paraphrase that is a direct twisting...

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"



Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

OUT OF CONTROL...and I know I know I will still come out as being the "bad guy" because I said something.....

YOU young man have twisted my words now. I said that Paul had to content with Churches such as the Church at Corinth that believed that they could have adulterous/fornication in their Church and that Paul was COMING AGAINST THOSE THAT THOUGHT 'LET'S SIN SO GRACE CAN EVEN MORE ABOUND'.

"Hold on" yourself there, and read what I write --- as I've stood by you giving you more "likes" then anyone on this forum until this thread because you taught obedience, the commandments OF CHRIST [I thought] and Holiness as onto our LORD.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

The guy that I mentioned on this thread that I was friends with and worked with and knew his wife and children started off being just Messianic -- him a Gentile at first but marrying a Jewish Messianic woman..... but little by little, he got more and more "Jewish" and after some years - with raising his two extremely sweet little girls to Love Jesus as Messiah -- he and his wife threw Jesus out of their house - lock, stock and barrel --- also listening to A.J. --- going to the Rabbis, the Talmud and finally the Kabbalah and tore Messiah right out from under their two dear little daughters that loved HIM.
They were my friends and I loved him and his wife. His wife was even used in the gifts before they threw Jesus out!

People can lose their minds and we just had a thread about that somewhere about something to that nature.

If you forget all the threads that I backed you on - never disagreeing with you until we hit this thread --- then I'm warning you that you may be starting to show signs of "forgetfulness" which unless you touch back with reality could lead to something much worse. Stay in touch with reality, man! People of unsound doctrine are losing their minds left and right in these days and it's because God is giving MANY over to their own desires. We are living in the Last Days and only The Spirit of Truth will keep one sane or from "falling away" either to sin, denying Christ or separating themselves from the Whole Counsel of GOD by His Word that was written by those HE chose to write His Words. If you begin to forget things and misquote friends that are fighting for you and not to hurt you .... you're missing some nuts and screws already.

Paul fought the good fight of faith, he finished the race - he never taught disobedience - was quite strong against sin and told Timothy in his last letter when nearing his martyrdom exactly that....

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Elin]

They are his own words....

For he himself said to a jew he became a jew, to a gentile he because a gentile....

That is craft and guile.

Here we disagree, call me what you will.

And yet Peter called Paul his beloved brother (2Pe 3:15)
who wrote with wisdom from God (2Pe 3:15),
and grouped Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures" (2Pe 3:16).

So Peter is a heretic also?

 

[ChristIsGod]

Paul was mentioned by PETER who PAUL had to STRAIGHTEN OUT over JUDAISISM and so PETER now calls him "our Beloved Brother" and says that Paul needing to bring in the NEW Covenant from the OLD is THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD and Paul's words MOST TWISTED because of the two EXTREMES that we see in the NEW COVENANT BOOK about those who said, "Since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and be OSAS" [paraphrase of Paul's words] and he had to constantly contend with those that wanted to bring them back under the 613 Laws.

THAT'S why Peter singles out Paul ...................................................

which has already been explained to you by a number of the members here but you and whomever else would rather say that we "worship Paul" and that Paul was full of errors in his commissioned writing of his letters which Peter calls "Scripture".

Here's the post that you misquoted there, Hiz!


adding: or willfully misunderstood.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Reckon you don't understand yet "the Two Extremes" that Paul and we on this forum are now dealing with - by 'misunderstanding' what I wrote about these two extremes in my post.

 

[Elin]

Yep, I'm learning a lot today..

Ya, know, the Word has many lessons and examples, some are good and say be like this, whereas some are bad and we don't want to be like that..it had a bad result.

There are so many "sects" within "Christianity" it boggles the mind!! Some worship Mary, and now
I see some worship Paul.
What else is out there I don't want to know.

Well, there's your misrepresentation of the church's response to Paul, called to be an apostle
of Christ Jesus by the will of God.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hold on.... that is not a paraphrase that is a direct twisting...

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"



Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

OUT OF CONTROL...and I know I know I will still come out as being the "bad guy" because I said something.....

Paul was mentioned by PETER who PAUL had to STRAIGHTEN OUT over JUDAISISM and so PETER now calls him "our Beloved Brother" and says that Paul needing to bring in the NEW Covenant from the OLD is THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD and Paul's words MOST TWISTED because of the two EXTREMES that we see in the NEW COVENANT BOOK about those who said, "Since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and be OSAS" [paraphrase of Paul's words] and he had to constantly contend with those that wanted to bring them back under the 613 Laws.

THAT'S why Peter singles out Paul ...................................................

which has already been explained to you by a number of the members here but you and whomever else would rather say that we "worship Paul" and that Paul was full of errors in his commissioned writing of his letters which Peter calls "Scripture".

[paraphrase of Paul's words] ?

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

 

[Hizikyah]

Hold on.... that is not a paraphrase that is a direct twisting...

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"



Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

OUT OF CONTROL...and I know I know I will still come out as being the "bad guy" because I said something.....

The NT was nowhere written in Hebrew.

That is pure speculation.


However, authoritative NT teaching translates "new" in the Hebrew of Jer 31:31,
"I will make a new (chadash) covenant" as kainos (Heb 8:8; Lk 22:20), which means
"new in nature, quality, form", and does not translate it anakainoo which means "renew,"
which the NT writers would have done if that is what "new" covenant meant.

According to authoritative NT teaching, the "new" covenant of Jer 31:31, Lk 22:20
is kainos--new in nature, it is not a "renewal" (ana-kainoo) or "making new" of anything.


Keeping in mind that all of this refers to the Davidic covenant (2Sa 7:5-16) of which
every word is fulfilled, and it "stands fast" forever.

However, the Mosaic covenant does not.
It was broken and annulled by disobedience (Jer 11:3-5, 8, 10), which is why we have a new covenant.


This refers to the Davidic covenant.

And yes, God does not break and annul covenants, it is men who do so by their disobedience of them,
as they did with the Mosaic covenant, so God promised a new(kainos) covenant (Heb 8:7-8),
not a renewed (anakainoo) covenant, which we now have in Jesus Christ (Lk 22:20).

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."


Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Has heaven and earth passed away? I will give you a minute to look out your window.......

No? Still there? So according to HIM, not me, Him, nothing will pass from the Law. (the real Sacifice is complete, and the Pristhood has taken on it true form, as Yahshua is the High Priest now.)

When will heaven and earth pass? Does Scripture give us a hint? Thank Yah, it does;

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.


Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

 

[ChristIsGod]

[paraphrase of Paul's words] ?

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

I can paraphrase Paul to show what we are dealing with on the NUMEROUS THREADS ON this one topic of "since grace abounds - we should be able to sin now and OSAS" ... WHAT ON EARTH HAVE MOST OF THESE THREADS BEEN ABOUT THAT DEAL WITH "WE DON'T HAVE TO OBEY - "NO WORKS" - NO COMMANDMENTS" ?????????????

That IS one side of the the TWO EXTREMES and you are headed for the opposite EXTREME or already there - if you throw out Paul as you have with your numerous posts against him on this thread and the one that was quoted in the OP.

If you throw out Paul YOU are the opposite of the TWO EXTREMES --- do you understand that is what my "paraphrase" is about .............. this forum and you and me and whomever else we've debated with!

You pick one paraphrase that I made to point to the two extremes of both what Paul had to deal with and what we've been dealing with on this forum and most every other forum out there today and beat that paraphrase to death when you KNOW DANG WELL what I'm talking about and of all people to complain about anyone MISREPRESENTING PAUL'S WORDS .... HOY VEY!

 

[Hizikyah]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

1 Timothy 4:1-2, "Now the Spirit speaks very plainly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared as with a hot iron."

"Now the Spirit speaks very plainly..."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

"Now the Spirit speaks very plainly..."

"Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand"

"Now the Spirit speaks very plainly..."

"which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction"

"Now the Spirit speaks very plainly..."

"knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi dc,

Just a few points for your consideration.

Most here agree that nobody is perfect in physical behavior.

But regarding Paul's claim of being "chief sinner", note the verses before to see what he referred to.

1Tim 1:13-15.
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Note that Paul describes his former actions as a blasphemer, persecutor and insolent man.
Note also that in the context of his claim of being a "chief sinner", he speaks of being saved by Christ.

Hence we see Paul was actually referring to his former actions as an unbeliever. He was a chief sinner until he was finally saved by Christ. After receiving Christ he was no longer blaspheming, persecuting or being insolent, that had earned him the chief sinner title when he was an unbeliever.

Consider also Gal 2:15.
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (Rom 2:28,29), and not sinners of the Gentiles (unbelievers),

Paul, in Gal 2:15, declares himself as not being a sinner.
Paul is not contradicting himself with 1Tim 1:15. In fact both these verses confirm each other.
And Paul is not saying that he is physically perfect in behavior.
Instead he refers to the Christian's position in Christ being covered by his righteousness, sinlessness, holiness, perfection. Remember that our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.

I suggest a re-evaluation as as of whom I AM CHIEF is present tense and of whom I WAS is past tense not to mention is follows the natural progression of Paul's view of himself....

1. I am the least of the Apostles
2. I am the least of the saints
3. I am the chief sinner

The more time one actually spends with Christ the more wicked they will see themselves in the flesh by the light of the righteousness of Christ!