Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[BradC]

This is what this generation seriously lacks, to abhor sin, to hate sin, to fight sin with every fiber in their body. No not this generation. This generation wants to freely sin and still think they are Heaven bound and will hold on to ANY doctrine which teaches the same. OSAS is such a document that teaches you can't possibly lose your Salvation, therefore doesn't matter what you do you still can't lose it. This is such doctrine that those who love to live in sin and want to still go to Heaven will hold on to with dear life, so as to not believe the Truth and have to give up their sinning which they much enjoy doing. We know they enjoy doing it, because they do not cease from doing, but willingly continue to live in sins, holding on for dear life the doctrine of OSAS. there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth on Judgment Day. it is no wander to me, that the Day Every eye shall see Him returning and He gathers up the few Saints that that day every kindred of the Earth will wail (rev 1:7)And also it is said about that day that all the tribes of the Earth will mourn (Matt 24:30) Billions of people when they see Christ come and are not taken up with him but left behind will wail and mourn and weep because they believed in a false doctrine that Once you are Saved, you can't possibly become UNSAVED. They are wrong, and the sad Truth of it, you can tell them over and over again that they are wrong, but they will not realize it until that day when they are not taken up with Him, Those who believe OSAS can't possibly believe what the Bible teaches, because it does not teach that at all.
If you start hating sin right now, and fight it with everything in your power (look to Him for the help, He will help you) then maybe there is hope for you yet. God hates sin, so should you. i believe hating sin is the first step to overcome that sin.

^i^

It is individuals like yourself and the likes of Jason that have made God's Eternal Salvation into a Temporal Conditional Salvation which is no salvation at all. You have actually made the work of the cross of no effect in justifying the sinner. You have made justification by faith in the blood of Christ only as good as your last confessed sin. You have made man's hope for salvation based on confession and not in believing in the cross of Christ. That is not the gospel that saved us or the one we are to preach nor is it the doctrine of Christ. The atonement (Rom 5:11) that we have received through the shed blood does away with your doctrine and system of righteousness through confession. How many times do we have to be justified by His blood and be saved from the wrath of God? ANSWER: Only once.

Heb 10:10-22

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (not those who keep being sanctified over and over again)
15 Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Jason0047]

You don't have to name anything online, but have you ever been involved with any sin that leads to death since you believed upon Christ for the remission of sin and for salvation? Since you confessed that sin to God did you repeat it again or more than once? Why are you so sure that when you confessed that sin to God that you were walking in the light? What was the light you were walking in so that the blood of Christ could cleanse you from that sin and all of its unrighteousness? What makes you so sure that you were cleansed from that sin, do you have any evidence or did you just take it by faith? How can we trust that you have been actually cleansed from all your sin and that you are confessed up to date? After all we don't want to fellowship with a brother with unconfessed sin that walks in darkness because of sin in his life.

If a brother walks in darkness because his sin was not genuinely confessed and repented of, then he has not really been cleansed and according to you has no salvation. You can tell us anything about what you have done concerning your sin but God knows the true condition of your heart and whether he has cleansed you or not. For all we know you may be one of those, in that day, who confesses to God that you have done all these wonderful works of confession in His name (moral power and excellence of the soul) but will have to hear, 'Sorry, I never knew you, depart from you worker of iniquity'. Is that a possibility for you Jason that you will have to face rejection because you were not cleansed from every single sin? Perhaps we all understand (Mt 7) a little better because of the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Sins unto death are murdering, lying, lusting, hating, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc. Again, your focus is on me so as put me down and uplift yourself. When it does not have to be that way. You want to know can a person be forgiven if they commit a sin unto death by confession? The answer is yes. Of course. A person can have assurance they are forgiven of any sin they confess because 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightouesness. The OSAS proponent does not believe that verse. They think sin is cleansed by belief alone. But 1 John 1:9 says IF WE CONFESS our sins.... (then)....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7 is what would follow next for the believer. They will then walk in the Light (righteousness and not sin) as He is in the Light (righteousness and not sin) so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses them of all sin. Walking in God's good ways starts the moment a person truly repents. But no, it is not a possibility for a believer to face rejection in believing and acting upon 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7. Unless of course a person does not believe the Bible.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes. A person can claim to be a Christian, and have even believe they accepted Jesus, but that does not mean they will continue with the Lord, though. One's free will is still intact when they are a believer.

 

[Jason0047]

It is individuals like yourself and the likes of Jason that have made God's Eternal Salvation into a Temporal Conditional Salvation which is no salvation at all. You have actually made the work of the cross of no effect in justifying the sinner. You have made justification by faith in the blood of Christ only as good as your last confessed sin. You have made man's hope for salvation based on confession and not in believing in the cross of Christ. That is not the gospel that saved us or the one we are to preach nor is it the doctrine of Christ. The atonement (Rom 5:11) that we have received through the shed blood does away with your doctrine and system of righteousness through confession. How many times do we have to be justified by His blood and be saved from the wrath of God? ANSWER: Only once.

Heb 10:10-22

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (not those who keep being sanctified over and over again)
15 Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Yeah, but you have to keep reading, though.

Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

 

[Jason0047]

This original post may try teaching specific theology, but it at least points people to (re)consider their walk with God. Thanks.

Your welcome.

And may God bless you.

 

[Jason0047]

i have a question...why would some of you assume those of us who believe
God holds us securely are woeful, unrepentant sinners?
(honest question)

why would we need threats and fear to obey the Lord,
when we can do so gladly and eagerly because we love Him?
why would any true child of God...who had walked with Him a while...
who had learned to trust Him and been given by Him love for Him...
why would any such Christian need threats?

i'm a parent. when our children were very small, they had to know the rules
and the consequences for breaking them. as they grew, they began to see
the rules were in place for their good and their dad and i had their best interests at heart...
and they trusted us and did as we asked out of love for us and trust in us.

does it really work that differently with our Father in heaven?

As to the answer to your first question: Well, I have talked with many OSAS proponents both online and inperson who claim they do abide in unrepentant sin and are still saved. However, if you are not convinced of that, then here are some testimonies of those who were once in OSAS who felt slave to their sin.

Ex OSAS Proponent Testimonies.

As an answer to your second question: The Bible says it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil; And the Scriptures say elsewhere that perfect love casts out fear. Meaning, one's love is perfected with God when they obey Him. For God's Word says that He that loves Him keeps His Commands. Not so as to be saved. But because they are saved. Saved the moment they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior. It is not by their own effort they are saved. For they know if they slip up into a sin again, they have God's grace that they can go to if they confess and forsake those sins with God's help.

As for your example: The consequences of breaking the rules teaches people that they cannot break them. If you teach that it is okay for your child to be in favor with you despite them breaking the rules no matter how bad, then you are not being a good example or a good parent. For example: If a child stole money, and you did not punish them, and you just accepted them, then they are not going to know that you truly disapprove of stealing. In fact, your silence and or not saying stealing is wrong is going to make them think you don't care about how stealing is wrong. Especially if the problem was very serious (And they stole all the time and caused trouble for you and your neighbors).

 

[mailmandan]

Sins unto death are murdering, lying, lusting, hating, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As for sin unto death. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. Is this spiritual death or physical death? How could it be spiritual death when it says "sinning a sin which does not lead to death" vs. sin leading to death? Apart from the blood of Christ ALL sin condemns us.

A person can have assurance they are forgiven of any sin they confess because 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Is John focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an "additional requirement" to remain cleansed? Or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." In contrast to if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Are you trying to imply that everytime a believer commits a sin they are not fully cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are they lost again until they confess that specific sin? What happens if they forget one?

The OSAS proponent does not believe that verse. They think sin is cleansed by belief alone.

Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

But 1 John 1:9 says IF WE CONFESS our sins.... (then)....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How could we believe in Him and receive remission of sins without a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? In contrast to saying that we "have no sin" or "have not sinned?"

1 John 1:7 is what would follow next for the believer. They will then walk in the Light (righteousness and not sin) as He is in the Light (righteousness and not sin) so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses them of all sin. Walking in God's good ways starts the moment a person truly repents. But no, it is not a possibility for a believer to face rejection in believing 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 1:9. A person just has to believe what those passages say at face value.

We need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

Compare "does not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Now compare "nor is he who does not love his brother" in 1 John 3:10 with 1 John 2:9 - He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.

 

[newbirth]

We need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

Walking in darkness here is not descriptive of lost unbelievers...it is descriptive of hypocrites or unlearned...look at the scripture carefully...
1 John 1:6 - IF we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

John was not writing to unbelievers.....he is telling believers they must practice the truth...all unrighteousness is sin...the wages of sin is death...all sins can be forgiven except one....
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[BradC]

Sins unto death are murdering, lying, lusting, hating, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc. Again, your focus is on me so as put me down and uplift yourself. When it does not have to be that way. You want to know can a person be forgiven if they commit a sin unto death by confession? The answer is yes. Of course. A person can have assurance they are forgiven of any sin they confess because 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightouesness. The OSAS proponent does not believe that verse. They think sin is cleansed by belief alone. But 1 John 1:9 says IF WE CONFESS our sins.... (then)....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7 is what would follow next for the believer. They will then walk in the Light (righteousness and not sin) as He is in the Light (righteousness and not sin) so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses them of all sin. Walking in God's good ways starts the moment a person truly repents. But no, it is not a possibility for a believer to face rejection in believing and acting upon 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7. Unless of course a person does not believe the Bible.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes. A person can claim to be a Christian, and have even believe they accepted Jesus, but that does not mean they will continue with the Lord, though. One's free will is still intact when they are a believer.

You focus your confession of sin in relationship to salvation upon people and upon individuals more specifically, so I am focusing your understanding upon yourself. You have to walk the walk before you talk the talk. Now, what are the assurances that you make mention of when you confess sin? 1 John 1:9 is not a salvation verse, it is instructing the believer as to their walk if they find themselves in some form of sin. Let me direct to a passage in James 5:14,15...

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Here we see that the elders of the church prayed for the sick and if they have committed any sins they shall be forgiven. We do not see James requesting the elders to have those who were sick to confess their sins before the church, just pray over them, anoint them with oil and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, the Lord shall raise him up and any sins he may have committed shall be forgiven. Now we all know that no man can not be forgiven without the blood of Christ having something to do with it.

You use (1 John 1:9) to establish this understanding that without confession of sin their is no cleansing and God would not be able to forgive what has not been cleansed. Are we to also observe from this passage that we ALSO can be forgiven of sins committed by putting ourselves before the elders of the church, anointed with oil and prayed for? Are we to presume that coming before the elders of the church is a confession of sins committed? The word 'if' is used in the context and it is in the third class condition which signifies that he may or may not have committed sins. So we have to conclude that if (may or may not) he committed sins they would be forgiven. We have the same assurances in (James 5) as we have in (1 John 1). By the same assurances that man who is forgiven of sins committed is also able to be restored in his fellowship of walking in the light with God and with others of the same faith, more specifically his brother.

You ever wonder about all those who came to Christ and the disciples to be healed of their sickness and affliction, whether they also were forgiven of their sins that they had committed. CASE IN POINT: John 5 with the impotent man who had an infirmity for 38 years. He was healed and later found by the Lord in the temple and told to 'sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you' (v.14). Was the impotent man forgiven when he was made whole or was he made whole in the midst of his sin? Was the adulterous woman, being alone with Christ in the temple in (John 8) forgiven when she was not condemned by the Lord Jesus Christ? I see no confession on her part for her sin of adultery. For Jesus not to condemn either one would appear that he had forgiven both through mercy and grace. Of course the woman was caught in the act of adultery but that did not relieve her of any act of confession or repentance in order to be forgiven. I believe they both acknowledge their sin because of the goodness of God and turned from it for we read nothing of them again.

How about (Mt 9:1-6) and the man sick of palsy who was healed and forgiven of his sins. What about the woman of the city that entered into Simon's house where Jesus was (Luke 7:37-50). She came to Jesus as a sinner, never opened her mouth in any confession of sin and was forgiven of all hers sins, which were many (v.48). His statement to her in (v.50) was, 'thy faith hath saved thee, go in peace'. The strange thing about the disciples who walked with the Lord for some three years, is that I do not see a single verse in scripture that testifies of a single sin that they confessed to the Lord, not even after they had forsaken him and fled for a time in (Mt 26:56) and later met him when they were in fear of the Jews and He said 'Peace be unto you' in (John 20:19) and none repented or confessed their sin of forsaking him. OR - Meeting with the disciples a second and third time when fishing with Peter, The Lord went to eat, to break bread and to dine with them never making any mention of their forsaking him at the cross, especially Peter who has cursed and denied the Lord three times (Mt 26:35). Even you Jason would never think of doing such a thing to save your reputation, now would you?

I think it very clear that Jesus had one intent with his disciples after the resurrection and that was the desire to fellowship with them, encourage them and give them promise and not hear their confession of sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Walking in darkness here is not descriptive of lost unbelievers...it is descriptive of hypocrites or unlearned...look at the scripture carefully...
1 John 1:6 - IF we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

John was not writing to unbelievers.....he is telling believers they must practice the truth...all unrighteousness is sin...the wages of sin is death...all sins can be forgiven except one....
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

On this point, we agree.

 

[Anonimous]

The son in the parable of the Prodigal son. The son was out of fellowship with his father... but he still never lost the relationship. He was still his father even though the son was no longer in fellowship.

 

[newbirth]

The son in the parable of the Prodigal son. The son was out of fellowship with his father... but he still never lost the relationship. He was still his father even though the son was no longer in fellowship.

the question is ...had he remained in the pig pen and died there.....what would the relationship have done for him???

 

[Jason0047]

The OSAS proponent does not believe that verse. They think sin is cleansed by belief alone

Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

Just to clarify where I am coming from. I do not believe 1 John 1:9 is for unbelievers or in coming to the Lord for the first time. Although I am sure one could confess certain sins when they came to the Lord for the first time. However, the new believer (that comes to the Lord) nearly needs to acknowledge that they are a sinner (with the intention that they do not want to sin again) and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. While I am sure that if a man comes to read a Bible verse that tells Him Jesus is His Savior and he believes that right before he dies, I imagine he would be saved. But if that same man ended up coming back to life from the dead and had to live out his faith, then I would see God requiring more on the man's part to surrender to Him (either thru calling upon the Lord to have mercy on him at some point in his life, etc.). To whom much is given, much is required. It's not that the act of the man doing anything is saving him. No. No. We are not saved by works. No way. But it was the man responding to God's grace. It was the man responding to be sorrowful before God under the conviction of the Spirit. Good works do not save in and of themselves but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved by God's grace.

I do not have to go out and do a bunch of good deeds tomorrow to be saved. I am already saved by God's grace. But the Lord does live within me, and because of this, good works will flow thru me (If I want to continue to abide with Him). For God is the source of eternal life and salvation. Not me. He is my Savior. It's not me. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. For the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. If they deserved those crowns then why are they giving them up? It's because it was Christ who was working within them. Hence, why we are not saved by our works.

But 1 John 1:9 says IF WE CONFESS our sins....(then)...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How could we believe in Him and receive remission of sins without a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? In contrast to saying that we "have no sin" or "have not sinned?"

As I am sure you are probably are aware: The OSAS proponent will say that they have sinned physically. But they believe that their sin is not held to their account or record because Jesus had paid it all for them. They believe all future sin is forgiven. So repentance or confession of sin is not necessary for maintaining a continued right relationship with God. They say that they are buried with Christ even if they abide in unrepentant sin. But 1 John 1:9 says if we (the believers) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

the question is ...had he remained in the pig pen and died there.....what would the relationship have done for him???

Yes, I agree. In fact, it is not so much in being a son that saves him. It is in his status of being either a "living son" or a "dead son." Dead sons do not partake in family picnics and or in family activities together. Dead sons are buried and cannot be a part of the family. This is the point of the parable. The father said twice that when his son was lost, he was dead and now that he came back, he is alive again. It's also important to point out that the son said that he was coming back as a servant to the father, too.

Anyways, the point is that the son was dead to the father when he was lost and living life to please himself.

 

[notuptome]

As I am sure you are probably are aware: The OSAS proponent will say that they have sinned physically. But they believe that their sin is not held to their account or record because Jesus had paid it all for them. They believe all future sin is forgiven. So repentance or confession of sin is not necessary for maintaining a continued right relationship with God. They say that they are buried with Christ even if they abide in unrepentant sin. But 1 John 1:9 says if we (the believers) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If you knew of Gods grace you would have a completely different perspective on this matter. You endeavor to add one plus one and arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

Yes Christ's blood is an atonement for all of my sin. Past, present and future sin is all under the blood. Jesus saves not part way or part of the time but to the uttermost and eternally. Gods grace is totally sufficient to save my soul forever. Nothing can be added or taken away from Gods grace. Gods gift of eternal life does not require any assembly or batteries.

As a saved person I cannot be unsaved. I do need to grow in the Lord so I need correction and instruction in righteousness on an constant basis. I am saved but not yet fully mature in Christ.

It is the height of foolishness to contend that saved people desire to live in sin. God made man with a natural hunger for food. God also makes His children to have a desire for Him a hunger for the presence of God. A hunger only God Himself can fill. It is not a hunger for sin but a hunger for Gods righteousness.

Having tasted of the goodness of God why would one go back to the bitterness of sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No. Every believer will know there will be unbelievers among them in a congregation who is looking to be saved even if they appear to be singing and praising God. They have crept in unaware and they feed themselves with them suggests a more intimate friendship that they are actual brethren. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. Wolves in sheep's clothing appear to be like a sheep and can deceive because they appear like sheep. A person who just sits in the congregation is not wearing a sheep outfit. It is in their behavior and what they say and believe that makes them appear as sheep (when they are not).

Titus 1:16 sums it up perfectly.

Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Where in the verses is it said that these false prophets and false teachers are "false believers"? They know the right way but have chosen to go the wrong way - ungodly men, denying the Lord that bought them, wolves in sheep's clothing whose whole purpose is to deceive, and yes, it can be someone sitting in the congregation - ones who claim to know God but do not have a relationship with Him at all.

"They profess that they know God" - oida - this "know" expresses the fact that the object [God] has simply come within the scope of the "knowers" perception - implies no relationship as does ginosko.

In Numbers 22, the children of Israel are wandering through the desert, and have just beaten up, killed, and plundered the Amorites. Balak, the king of Moab, has just seen all of this, and he begins considering what might happen to them! Worried that his people might be next in line for defeat, Balak tries to get some “insurance” by getting God's prophet, Balaam, on their side. “So he sent messengers to Balaam saying, `Behold a people came out of Egypt, and they are living opposite me. Please come and curse this people for me; perhaps l may be able to defeat them and drive them out of the land. For l know that he whom you bless is blessed and he whom you curse is cursed.'”

I could stop right here because even the first sentence is incorrect [bolded] Numbers 22:1-3 And the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in the plains of Moab on this side Jordan by Jericho. And Balak the son f Zippor saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites. And Moab was sore afraid of the people [Israel] because they were many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of Israel.

Apparently Balaam had established a great reputation! If he said a person was blessed, they were really blessed - and if he said they were cursed, it was all over for them! After all, who would hire a guy to come and curse their enemies if they didn't think it was going to work? Now, we don't know the history of Balaam, but we do know that God speaks to him in this story, and He does it as if He's familiar with speaking to him. Balaam knew the Lord, and everybody knew that he did.

So Balak sent some of his leaders to go see Balaam, and to bring him “fees of divination.” “And they came to Balaam and repeated Balak's words to him. And he said to them, `Spend the night here, and I will bring word back to you as the Lord may speak to me.' Then God came to Balaam and said, `who are these men with you?' And Balaam said, `Balak the king of Moab has sent word to me, “Behold, there is a people who came out of Egypt; now come, curse them for me; perhaps I may be able to fight against them, and drive them out.” And God said to Balaam, `Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'”

That's it. Do not go with them. You can't get any clearer than that! Now, God doesn't always tell you why. He might just say “No.” But apparently Balaam had such a good relationship with God that He even told himwhy he wasn't supposed to go. “You shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.”

They came to Balaam with "fees of divination" - Why pay someone for divination if that someone was not into divination? "wages of unrighteousness"

“So Balaam said to Balak's leaders, `Go back to your land, for the Lord has refused to let me go with you.' And they went to Balak, and said, `Balaam refused to come with us.' Then Balak again sent leaders, more numerous and more distinguished than the former. And they came to Balaam and said to him, `Thus says Balak, “Let nothing, I beg you, hinder you from coming to me, for I will indeed honor you richly. Please come then, curse this people for me.”'” Let's take a close look at Balaam's answer in verse 13. A bunch of guys came and said to him, “We want you to come and curse these people.” But when Balaam asked God, He said, “No. These people are blessed, and I don't want you to hurt them.” The obvious thing for Balaam to have told the messengers would have been, “I can't curse these people because God said they are blessed.”

But what did Balaam say to the messengers? “Go back to your land, for the Lord has refused to let me go with you.” What does that mean? He wishes he could go, but “God won't let him.” Remember those “fees of divination”? Balaam got paid for his work. There wasn't anything strange about that in those days - it was customary to bring a gift when you sought the word of God from a prophet. Balaam knew there was some big money to be made, and what he was really saying was, “I'd like to go, but I can't.”

Source Used For the Portion of What was Written on Balaam:
Last Days Ministries : Getting What You Want From God (The Error Of Balaam)
(Please note that I merely agree with this portion of the article I quoted. I do not agree with everything they teach or say - Thank you, and may God bless you)

He may have been a "prophet" but he wasn't a prophet from God - He practiced divination; he was going to be paid for his job - divination. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD . . . Deut. 18:10-13a

v20 - That night God came to Balaam and said, "Since these men have come to summon you, go with them, but do only what I tell you. - Now if this was the word of the one true God - why was God's anger kindled because he went and why did the angel of the LORD try to stop him from going three times? v31 And the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam and he saw the angel of the LORD - Balaam even said "I have sinned" (v34) Now Balaam gets permission to go with the men from the angel. He does not curse the children of Israel but rather blesses them.

24:1 Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not resort to divination as at other time, but turned his face toward the wilderness . . .(2) The Spirit of God came upon him . . . .

 

[Kerry]

Depends on what is meant by out of fellowship. We all sin all the time and do not even realize it. Don't think so then think again.

 

[notuptome]

Depends on what is meant by out of fellowship. We all sin all the time and do not even realize it. Don't think so then think again.

The closer you walk with God the more the brightness of His glory illuminates your sinfulness. Even some of the holiest men of God saw themselves as having a lot of room for improvement in their walk with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In other words, Balaam's thoughts of wanting to do the wrong thing is where he starts to go downhill. It is not before that point. Read Numbers 22. It is said that Balaam has the Spirit of God. Unbelievers, or those who deny the Lord, or false prophets do not have the Spirit of God.

The only time it mentions that the "Spirit of God came on him" is in 24:2 after Balaam "went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments" [divination] . . . .

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

the question is ...had he remained in the pig pen and died there.....what would the relationship have done for him???

You don't think Dad would have gone out looking for him, and upon discovering he died in a foreign land, exhume his grave and return him home? Have you read the passages of Scripture that say God pursues us? Do you understand what that means?

From what I see in your posts, no, you do not.

 

[Rudimental]

Yes. They are not deserving of Christ's work because they did not accept it because they did not truly repent. They are still in love with their old self and in love with serving their sin and not serving God. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. This is what the Condemnation is all about. John 3:19-20 says, "And this is the Condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

Who are you to say whether they are deserving of Christ's work or not? Judge not lest you become judged......

You cannot walk in perfect light while you live on earth. The earth is satans kingdom and we are all walking in darkness until Christ returns.

Even if you're the pope!

No, OSAS proponents have taken something simple and turned it into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4 NIV). For Peter identifies those false believers as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

There is a simplicity in Christ. You know right from wrong. Good guys are not people who do bad and evil things. That is Morality 101. That is simple basics. You don't need a Bible to tell you good guys do good and bad guys do bad. Those who sin with no remorse and have no desire to change are hypocrites. For the Bible says one thing and they do another thing. Jesus talked about the Pharisees being hypocrites.

Don't be naive! There are some bad people in the world that are just trying to be good. And there are some good people that are trying to be bad.

Take a pint of water. Dip a tea bag into it. What happens? The water changes color right? How can you remove the tea from the water? You cannot! Not without sieving it through a filter. Jesus is that filter.

There are some people that are bad because they started doing something bad and its stuck on them. They don't want to do it but they find themself still doing it. What was it that Paul said in Romans 7:15? For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

This is Paul saying, I don't understand it but even though I don't want to do bad things, I still do them!

This is the same for people and is the exact reason that we need a Saviour.

Just because you say that people can be out of fellowship with God doesn't make it so. You actually need a Bible verse or two to support that line of thinking. However, you don't have to bother looking for one. Not only has nobody been able to produce one so far, but there is Scripture that actually says the exact opposite. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. John 17:3 says that eternal life is in knowing the true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing someone implies a fellowship. So eternal life is tied to fellowship. For Jesus Christ alone is the only one who possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). For if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to him (Romans 8:9).

You think its all so simple and black and white don't you? I don't attend Christian fellowship anymore. I don't go to church. And I don't set out to do good deeds for the day. I don't donate to charity and I'm generally very rude and arrogant most of the time. Especially in the mornings without coffee!

But I'm saved because Romans 10:9 KJV says That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It doesn't say, you must become a good person first! That will happen when and only when we get to Heaven. We will be made perfect and will sin no more for ever.

Again, you don't know your Bible. That's not what the Bible says. Jesus says judge not by outward appearances but judge righteous Judgment. Paul says know ye not that ye shall judge angels? For Paul says we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but we are to rather reprove them. What is unfruitful works of darkness? Again, read the Condemnation one more time in John 3:19-20.

Don't tell me I don't know my bible. How do you know how much I know about the bible? I see what you are saying, but life its not as black and white as that my friend. Read what I just said, what Paul said in Romans 7:15. This is God saying to us (through Paul) that even though you want to do good, you have become infected by sin and you cannot help but to sin. THATS WHY HE SENT HIS SON AS A REDEEMER IS IT NOT!?

I don't care how close you are to Christ. I don't care how much of a good person you think you are. You WILL sin again and will continue to do so until the day you die.

You know what I mean. Please offer how the words in those passages relate to OSAS. I am asking for a commentary. Surely that should not be too difficult for you. But I am not really expecting you to do that because you do not know how to actually explain those passages in relating to OSAS.

You shouldn't be so quick as to judge what a person is or isn't able to do. I don't have time to do it all, (I just have enough to quote you). But there is plenty evidence and biblical quotes here for OSAS Once Saved, Always Saved

Lots of quotes there that say that OSAS is the case.

You CANNOT loose your salvation in Christ.

Would God (Yes GOD Himself) give a man the gift of eternal life with Him and then snatch it away again for being naughty?

Like I said God does NOT make mistakes.

Then how does sin get taken away in one's life personally if it is not by some OSAS belief alone?

Are you asking me for the answer or trying to make a point? Surely we both already know the answer. Sin is not "taken away". It is forgiven. Sin wont be "taken away" until we make it to Heaven where we will have perfect sinless bodies.

That's not what it says in context, though. Again. 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7 is reworded in 1 John 2:3-6. It says, hereby we can know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:1 says to the brethren if they sin, they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). This means 1 John 1:9 applies to the believer. For OSAS proponents do not believe they have any sin held to their account. So they are saying in Christ, they have no sin. But 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Then 1 John 1:9 is the next verse that follows.

You keep quoting John 1:6 as though it is the be all and end all to everyone your arguments. But to be honest I am starting to get a bit confused as to what your point is here now.

Yes, that professing believer who still abides in unrepentant sin (with no remorse) is not saved. They need to repent and forsake their sin with God's help. For the Scriptures say, "For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord."

Yes we do, daily. Nobody on earth is truly "holy". Since we are all sinners to God. It's only when we get to Heaven we will be truly holy like God and be able to see Gods face.

Paul and the Bible do not teach OSAS. You have tricked yourself into believing a lie that is not in the Scriptures. Look, you can't even explain simple verses in 1 John 1 to me in your own words.

I have not tricked myself into anything. What are you talking about man "it's not in scripture"!?? How many times do I have to quote Romans 10:9 to you?

Well, I have considered OSAS for a brief time. But Scripture completely is against such a concept everywhere. From Genesis to Revelation you can see many examples that refute OSAS.

Really?????? So you DO think that God gives that gift of forgiveness and eternal life to a man and then takes it away again. You DO think that God makes mistakes yes? Is that what you are saying??

He doesn't want us to be happy in sin; And God will not condone or reward you by allowing you to enter into Heaven because of it, either.

Did I say that? I don't think I said that.. I said, God wants us to be happy. We are ALL living in sin. All of us are worthy of being put to death. God wants us to be happy (despite our sins).

Does your preacher say the words, "Rightly divide the Word of truth" ? I know this is taken from Scripture, but OSAS proponents say this phrase like it is their personal pet motto or slogan or something. On another forum, others have used this same phrase from Scripture. As if saying it actually explains everything.

Sorry, but call it my failing brain idk, but I don't quite understand what your point is here if you'd care to reiterate?

But it doesn't explain anything. You can't explain the morality behind OSAS. For how is letting people who can sin and rebel against God not being hypocritcal? You know the Bible says to be holy and be righteous, and yet God is going to just like let you slide in doing evil? Jesus had some pretty nasty words against those who did evil and appeared to be religious.

Like I've already said, we wont be doing evil then. We will never do evil again. At that point in time. I will be perfect and sin free, sin less. Without blame, perfect and righteous in Gods presence. YOU CANNOT BE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS! YOU CANNOT DO GODS WILL! WE ARE BROKEN! Since Eve sinned, ALL of us are born broken. Born into sin. You can try to be holy. You can try to be righteous. But you need to see that none of us are. Not even the pope! So yes, I do think that God is going to let me in. Because a) Christ died for my sins and b) I will no longer be held captive by the sins of this world.

Jesus never said anything nasty. What did He say that was nasty? He rebuked people but he never ever once cursed anyone whether a singular or collective group of people. The only time he got angry was when they turned the chapel into a den of thieves and he drove them out. But he never said anything nasty. He just rebuked them.

You wont be able to do evil in Heaven. Since evil wont exist any more..

You think that we must become some kind of saints to enter into Heaven?

Did Christ come to earth to save the righteous?

Or did He come to save us sinners?

On that day, you are going to be so surprised to see people in Heaven that you would never thought in a million years that they would make it there.

We are all sinners and some of us cannot help to sin. Even those that accept Christ and are the most devout Christian you could ever meet will slip up and sin. Wither thats a careless slip of the tongue to something more benign. In fact you can be sure of it, because old hairy legs love to target those that are closest to God.

He walks around like a lion seeking someone to devour. He finds an alcoholic homeless man and passes by thinking, I have already destroyed his life. He seeks to find someone closer to God, someone that could do some damage to Gods ministry/family.

Sorry pal, you're probably a really nice chap in real life. But there are parts of the picture you are not seeing.

I mean, you started this thread with a question which you seemed to answer yourself as though you are the ending authority on the matter.

You need to learn to accept that you might be wrong. I do. And I can admit if I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll hold my hands up and say thank you for the lesson and instruction. What I wont do is try to rob someone of the joy that is only available to them through the faith that comes from knowing that OSAS is a truth you cannot refute. No matter how many bible verses you throw at it.

A man cannot loose his salvation. Even if he becomes a murderer and starts worshiping the devil. Once he has believed it and God knows his heart. That persons name is in the book of life forever. That is my belief. Shoot me down if you want. But that is what I've always been taught to believe and learned myself from scripture.

God bless you all the same!