Hell's Population Crock
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So you are making the extrapolation of Endless Torture? Don't see it mentioned there.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
According to the Anti-Christ, Jesus will not fulfill the Will of the Father - how vulgar and blasphemous. Down-right demonic.
Truly, the seething sounds of the "Voice of the Dragon, Beast and False Prophet" are alive and well.
And there shall be many false Christ's - Matthew 24:24
John 6:39 And this is the Father's WILL which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
According to the Anti-Christ, Jesus will not fulfill the Will of the Father - how vulgar and blasphemous. Down-right demonic.
Truly, the seething sounds of the "Voice of the Dragon, Beast and False Prophet" are alive and well.
And there shall be many false Christ's - Matthew 24:24
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U
maybe if you made your point more clear people wouldn't treat you the way they do. You come across as an isolated hippy (like the moms basement dweller type). just sayin. just be more clear, and people might actually start agreeing with you, or at least stop reporting you. i will admit that i just did.
the socratic method only works when your intended result is actually logical...
the socratic method only works when your intended result is actually logical...
J
...said the voice of the dragon.
This same Jesus prayed:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
How does that fit in with your heresy?
Also, if you backed up just one chapter from your cherry-picked "quote", then you would have read the following words of Jesus, too:
John chapter 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Unlike you, Jesus understood that there are TWO RESURRECTIONS...one unto life and the other unto damnation. Yes, unlike you, Jesus was more than familiar with that which Daniel had written:
Daniel chapter 12
[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
What is it about "shame and everlasting contempt" that you don't understand?
This same Jesus prayed:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
How does that fit in with your heresy?
Also, if you backed up just one chapter from your cherry-picked "quote", then you would have read the following words of Jesus, too:
John chapter 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Unlike you, Jesus understood that there are TWO RESURRECTIONS...one unto life and the other unto damnation. Yes, unlike you, Jesus was more than familiar with that which Daniel had written:
Daniel chapter 12
[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
What is it about "shame and everlasting contempt" that you don't understand?
J
Again, this same John wrote:
John chapter 3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
What, exactly, is it about CONDEMNATION that you don't understand?
John chapter 3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
What, exactly, is it about CONDEMNATION that you don't understand?
K
Wow,wow wow!! You dont believe hell is eternal? So I know any Scripture I list to the contrary you will have an answer for right? Ive seen this thread pop up a lot and had to read the first few comments.
Matt.25....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Is heaven eternal? So is hell according to the Bible.
Matt.18...And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire."
- "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thessalonians. 1:9).
Understand more than you know - you should do your Hebrew and Greek Words Bible Study - do I have to do all your homework for you?
Let us start with the Old Testament. When our Bibles say that something is "forever" or "eternal" or "everlasting" in the Old Testament, the word that the Hebrew writers used was "olam" (Strong's #5769). If we trace the Bible's usage of this word we will see that it does not really mean forever. Jonah wrote about his time in the great fish, "The earth with her bars closed behind me forever (olam)" (Jonah 2:6). Yet he was only there for three days (Jonah 1:17). When a Hebrew slave loved his master he would have his ear bored with an awl and would then "serve him forever (olam)" (Exod. 21:6). Of course this could only mean for the rest of his life. God said about Solomon's temple that He would put His name there forever (olam) (1 Kin 9:3), but this temple burned to the ground 400 years later. Israel was not allowed to let a Moabite or Ammonite into the congregation forever (olam) (Deut. 23:3), but in the same verse this is explained to mean "for ten generations." Isaiah wrote that certain places in Israel shall become desolate forever (olam) (Isa 32:14), but the next verse says, ? until the Spirit is poured out from on high and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field.? The Levitical priesthood was said to be an eternal (olam) priesthood (Ex 40:15), but the Bible then tells us that it was superceded by the Melchizedek priesthood (Heb 7:11-18). The Sinai covenant was called an everlasting (olam) covenant (Lev 24:8), but the New Testament says it is obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). Sabbaths and ritual sacrifices were to be observed as a statute forever (olam) (Lev. 6:18; 16:31; 2 Chr. 2:4; Exod. 31:16-17), but then we read that they were but ?fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation? (Heb. 9:10). So when we read in Dan. 12:2 that "some shall rise to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt," never-ending punishment is not what is being taught. God will punish until His people are corrected and repent. The word "olam" should be translated "indefinitely" or "age-lasting." This would clear up many contradictions in our English language Bibles.
Now let us turn to the New Testament where most of the so-called eternal punishment verses are located. We have about a dozen references to eternal punishment here. For instance we are told that some shall go to the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), some shall go to "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46) or suffer "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9) or go into the lake of fire "forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). In all of these dozen or so verses the length of the punishment is described by the Greek word "aion" (Strongs #165) or its adjective form "aionios" (#166). These words are used over and over again in the New Testament to describe limited time periods . Again, it is very easy to prove this by tracing their usage with a concordance. But first let me point out that we get our English word "eon" from the Greek "aion." An eon is an age, a long but limited period of time.
Now the word "aion" is translated as "age" (sometimes as "world") in dozens of passages in most Bibles. Here are some examples: "I am with you even to the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 28:20), "the harvest is the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 13:39), "the god of this age (aion) has blinded .." (2 Cor. 4:4), "the mystery that has been hidden from ages (aions) and generations" (Col. 1:26), "in the ages (aions) to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7), "might deliver us from this present evil age (aion)" (Gal. 1:4), "by whom also He made the ages (aions)" (Heb. 1:2). Now try putting the sense of eternity into these verses and see how ridiculous it is: "the harvest is the end of the eternity ," "the god of this eternity ," "the mystery hidden from eternities and generations," "in the eternities to come ," "from this present evil eternity ," etc. And yet this is the very same word on which the doctrine of eternal punishment stands!
The words "olam" and "aion" have precisely the same meaning. They mean indefinite time, not never-ending time . They should be consistently translated as "age" or "age-lasting." The wicked are thrown into an age-lasting fire. The lake of fire lasts for an age of ages, not forever and ever. The phrase "forever and ever" is nonsense. What is the need for the second "ever" if the first one means never-ending. It's like saying, "forever plus a day." The proper translation is "for an age of ages" or "to the age of the age." This describes a long but not infinite amount of time. The Bible is remarkably consistent in the original Hebrew and Greek languages in which it was written. In Matt. 25:46 the word translated "punishment" is "kolasis" in the Greek and means "to reform by pruning or chastising." Some go away not to "everlasting punisment" but to "age-lasting chastisement." God's punishments are not meaningless and vindictive, but fatherly punishments that correct sinners and bring about righteousness. [Note: Matt. 25:46 is translated in the following way in these Bibles: "these shall go away to punishment age-during" (Young's Literal Translation), "these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages" (Weymouth's NT), "these shall be coming away into chastening eonian" (Concordant Literal Version), "these shall go away into age-abiding correction (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible), "these last will go away into aeonian punishment" (20th Cent. NT).]
Let us start with the Old Testament. When our Bibles say that something is "forever" or "eternal" or "everlasting" in the Old Testament, the word that the Hebrew writers used was "olam" (Strong's #5769). If we trace the Bible's usage of this word we will see that it does not really mean forever. Jonah wrote about his time in the great fish, "The earth with her bars closed behind me forever (olam)" (Jonah 2:6). Yet he was only there for three days (Jonah 1:17). When a Hebrew slave loved his master he would have his ear bored with an awl and would then "serve him forever (olam)" (Exod. 21:6). Of course this could only mean for the rest of his life. God said about Solomon's temple that He would put His name there forever (olam) (1 Kin 9:3), but this temple burned to the ground 400 years later. Israel was not allowed to let a Moabite or Ammonite into the congregation forever (olam) (Deut. 23:3), but in the same verse this is explained to mean "for ten generations." Isaiah wrote that certain places in Israel shall become desolate forever (olam) (Isa 32:14), but the next verse says, ? until the Spirit is poured out from on high and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field.? The Levitical priesthood was said to be an eternal (olam) priesthood (Ex 40:15), but the Bible then tells us that it was superceded by the Melchizedek priesthood (Heb 7:11-18). The Sinai covenant was called an everlasting (olam) covenant (Lev 24:8), but the New Testament says it is obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). Sabbaths and ritual sacrifices were to be observed as a statute forever (olam) (Lev. 6:18; 16:31; 2 Chr. 2:4; Exod. 31:16-17), but then we read that they were but ?fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation? (Heb. 9:10). So when we read in Dan. 12:2 that "some shall rise to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt," never-ending punishment is not what is being taught. God will punish until His people are corrected and repent. The word "olam" should be translated "indefinitely" or "age-lasting." This would clear up many contradictions in our English language Bibles.
Now let us turn to the New Testament where most of the so-called eternal punishment verses are located. We have about a dozen references to eternal punishment here. For instance we are told that some shall go to the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41), some shall go to "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46) or suffer "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9) or go into the lake of fire "forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). In all of these dozen or so verses the length of the punishment is described by the Greek word "aion" (Strongs #165) or its adjective form "aionios" (#166). These words are used over and over again in the New Testament to describe limited time periods . Again, it is very easy to prove this by tracing their usage with a concordance. But first let me point out that we get our English word "eon" from the Greek "aion." An eon is an age, a long but limited period of time.
Now the word "aion" is translated as "age" (sometimes as "world") in dozens of passages in most Bibles. Here are some examples: "I am with you even to the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 28:20), "the harvest is the end of the age (aion)" (Matt. 13:39), "the god of this age (aion) has blinded .." (2 Cor. 4:4), "the mystery that has been hidden from ages (aions) and generations" (Col. 1:26), "in the ages (aions) to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7), "might deliver us from this present evil age (aion)" (Gal. 1:4), "by whom also He made the ages (aions)" (Heb. 1:2). Now try putting the sense of eternity into these verses and see how ridiculous it is: "the harvest is the end of the eternity ," "the god of this eternity ," "the mystery hidden from eternities and generations," "in the eternities to come ," "from this present evil eternity ," etc. And yet this is the very same word on which the doctrine of eternal punishment stands!
The words "olam" and "aion" have precisely the same meaning. They mean indefinite time, not never-ending time . They should be consistently translated as "age" or "age-lasting." The wicked are thrown into an age-lasting fire. The lake of fire lasts for an age of ages, not forever and ever. The phrase "forever and ever" is nonsense. What is the need for the second "ever" if the first one means never-ending. It's like saying, "forever plus a day." The proper translation is "for an age of ages" or "to the age of the age." This describes a long but not infinite amount of time. The Bible is remarkably consistent in the original Hebrew and Greek languages in which it was written. In Matt. 25:46 the word translated "punishment" is "kolasis" in the Greek and means "to reform by pruning or chastising." Some go away not to "everlasting punisment" but to "age-lasting chastisement." God's punishments are not meaningless and vindictive, but fatherly punishments that correct sinners and bring about righteousness. [Note: Matt. 25:46 is translated in the following way in these Bibles: "these shall go away to punishment age-during" (Young's Literal Translation), "these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages" (Weymouth's NT), "these shall be coming away into chastening eonian" (Concordant Literal Version), "these shall go away into age-abiding correction (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible), "these last will go away into aeonian punishment" (20th Cent. NT).]
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Since I am the one that made the video, no reason to summarize.
You can take the time to watch it -
You can take the time to watch it -
I don't have the time to go through your video bit by bit to point out possible errors but I will say this, Just as "forever" doesn't always mean "forever", "ALL" doesn't always mean "ALL" or "everybody who was born". Some times "all" is referring to a group of people, usually defined by a qualifier.
Also, I am offended at the way you talk about other Christians who believe differently or disagree with your assessment on hell. Do you have a problem with God destroying people on the earth in Noah's day, or God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah? You know, when we arrive to the afterlife after our death, and see Christ face to face, I'm sure we will all discover we had some things wrong, doesn't mean that satan contrived them nor does it mean we heard it from satan. Your so convinced, good for you, for your sake I hope you are right! However, there really isn't enough biblical proof text to back your claims entirely, I say this while believing the concept of "hell" is a bit ambiguous at best. But I don't have a problem with "hell" being a place were the wicked go, separated from God, where God sustains their life eternally without His presence. Jesus teaches this in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, this parable clearly demonstrates two places in which men go with a great gulf in between in which no one can pass.
My point, get off your high horse and just start loving your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, we all are going to have different opinions and interpretations on some of the "unclear" and "non essential" things written in the bible. John says that when we love our brothers and sisters, that is a clear indication that we are in Christ. If God wants to sustain unbelievers in an external existence separated from US and Him, it's because those unbelievers chose "who they will follow" in their earthly life and there really is no reason to knock it. God's wisdom and understanding surpasses ours, and yours, learn to humble yourself for your sake and for Christ's sake.
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J
Well, seeing how Socrates has refused to answer my direct question in relation to "the Abrahamic covenant" and Acts 3:19-26, I'll just go ahead and address the same now without his consent:
Acts chapter 3
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
[21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
[24] Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
[25] Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
[26] Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Peter, under Divine Inspiration, spoke of "the times of restitution of all things" in relation to that "which God hath spoken BY THE MOUTH OF ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN". IOW, some of these "holy prophets" PRECEDED both Abraham who didn't appear on the scene until somewhere about 2,000 years after Adam did and "the Abrahamic covenant". In fact, I'll now cite to you exactly what one of these "holy prophets" prophesied:
Jude
[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
[2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
In his defense of "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints", Jude warned of those "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ". Yes, Jude not only reminded his readers how the Lord, IN HIS WRATH, overthrew 603,548 of the original 603,550 Israelite men who were 20 years old and upward who came out of Egypt, how the angels which kept not their first habitation have been "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" and the fiery example of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he also reminded his readers of the likes of Cain, Balaam and Korah "to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever". Further still, Jude used Enoch's prophecy or the prophecy of a "holy prophet" WHO PRECEDED ABRAHAM as his "proof text" to make his case. If anybody here or elsewhere believes that Enoch's prophecy somehow teaches "universalism" or that everybody will somehow be "restored" or "saved", then, quite frankly, they're out of their mind.
Anyhow, God's "restitution of all things which He has spoken by the mouth of ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN" (Acts 3:21) includes "condemnation", "judgment" and "the blackness of darkness" FOR MANY.
Acts chapter 3
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
[21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
[24] Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
[25] Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
[26] Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Peter, under Divine Inspiration, spoke of "the times of restitution of all things" in relation to that "which God hath spoken BY THE MOUTH OF ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN". IOW, some of these "holy prophets" PRECEDED both Abraham who didn't appear on the scene until somewhere about 2,000 years after Adam did and "the Abrahamic covenant". In fact, I'll now cite to you exactly what one of these "holy prophets" prophesied:
Jude
[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
[2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
In his defense of "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints", Jude warned of those "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ". Yes, Jude not only reminded his readers how the Lord, IN HIS WRATH, overthrew 603,548 of the original 603,550 Israelite men who were 20 years old and upward who came out of Egypt, how the angels which kept not their first habitation have been "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" and the fiery example of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he also reminded his readers of the likes of Cain, Balaam and Korah "to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever". Further still, Jude used Enoch's prophecy or the prophecy of a "holy prophet" WHO PRECEDED ABRAHAM as his "proof text" to make his case. If anybody here or elsewhere believes that Enoch's prophecy somehow teaches "universalism" or that everybody will somehow be "restored" or "saved", then, quite frankly, they're out of their mind.
Anyhow, God's "restitution of all things which He has spoken by the mouth of ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN" (Acts 3:21) includes "condemnation", "judgment" and "the blackness of darkness" FOR MANY.
If I want to wear sunglasses for fun, who cares, how nit-picky and petty can you be?
If you can't handle the word of the Restoration of ALL THINGS the way I preach it, that is your issue, not mine.
If you wan't to continue to propagate the pagan name Hel and support the Ant-Christ Doctrines that are against the Abrahamic Covenant of which Jesus Christ has come to fulfill, then I will continue to burn it up on the left and on the right.
Zech 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; andthey shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem
If you can't handle the word of the Restoration of ALL THINGS the way I preach it, that is your issue, not mine.
If you wan't to continue to propagate the pagan name Hel and support the Ant-Christ Doctrines that are against the Abrahamic Covenant of which Jesus Christ has come to fulfill, then I will continue to burn it up on the left and on the right.
Zech 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; andthey shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem
K
You know its no wonder people stay away from the church and Christianity.People have complicated the gospel message so much that sinners think "Hey if they cant figure it out how can I?" The Gospel is simple and a word or verse is not a doctrine.Im against watching peoples videos that they have made because I feel they are exulting themselves and their own wisdom and looking for attention.I gave you video 2mins which is more than I will for most.If you have to hide behind glasses and shade who you are that says something to me.The Bible clearly says hell is eternal as the verses I posted says.If heaven is eternal so is hell.Or do you believe heaven is eternal? Man I get so tired of the Pharisee attitude on here sometimes,obscuring the plain truth of the Bible and making the Good News difficult to understand.Its so simple a child can understand.Christ came to save.To accept him is eternal life,to reject him is eternal fire.A verse or word study does not a doctrine make.
As a ps I wish folk would just say out and out what they believe.I do whenever possible.I dont veil my beliefs and make people guess at what theology I believe or what church I attend for that matter.Whats the big secret and all this mystery.I just dont believe its of God IMO The Gospel is clear,simple enough for a child to understand.Yes you can get deeper but some wander so far they make a whole new doctrine. Ok so off the soapbox.I know the OP will argue with me.If you're so sure of your beliefs say what it is,eternal torment or annihilation? Obviously its the latter.There so simple to say what we believe.I believe in eternal damnation as to what the Bible clearly says.
As a ps I wish folk would just say out and out what they believe.I do whenever possible.I dont veil my beliefs and make people guess at what theology I believe or what church I attend for that matter.Whats the big secret and all this mystery.I just dont believe its of God IMO The Gospel is clear,simple enough for a child to understand.Yes you can get deeper but some wander so far they make a whole new doctrine. Ok so off the soapbox.I know the OP will argue with me.If you're so sure of your beliefs say what it is,eternal torment or annihilation? Obviously its the latter.There so simple to say what we believe.I believe in eternal damnation as to what the Bible clearly says.
Well, let's understand the passage...
First of all, what is the time frame?
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The time frame is the Millennium. Christ has returned, established the Kingdom of God and the resurrected saints are ruling with Him for 1000 years here on earth (Rev 5:10).
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So, there is some group of people that are called "the rest of the dead" and they are not resurrected until AFTER the Millennium but those resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium are in the FIRST resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So, resurrected saints have reigned with Christ 1000 years in a utopia on earth with no Satan to corrupt the beauty and perfection. Now we come to the end of the Millennium...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
So, Satan is released and immediately he goes about doing what he does best, stirring up hate and discontent. Those humans that Satan has influenced rebel and come down to Jerusalem to attack it. God sends fire from heaven and they are destroyed.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Now that we have a timeline and see that this is at the end of the Millennium, let's see what this verse really says...
Satan the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire. Notice that the verb "are" is in italics? You know that means it was not in the original manuscripts. Secondly, the phrase "where the beast and the false prophet are" is a parenthetical thought. The rules of English tell us that we can remove a parenthetical thought without changing the meaning or sense of the complete sentence, so...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented day and night forever. Now what about the phrase "where the beast and the false prophet are"?
Bullinger has this...
"where also the beast and the false prophet were cast"
The Diaglott simply has...
"where both the wild-beast and the false-prophets"
Let's see if everyone is in this Lake burning and screaming and writhing in pain...
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This passage is at the return of Christ just as the Millennium is about to begin. In other words, 1000 year BEFORE Rev 20:10. Notice that the Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire? What about everyone else? Their carcasses are left in the open and scavenger birds pick them clean but they are not cast into the Lake of Fire.
So what of the Beast and False Prophet? Are they suffering eternal torment? The NIV is very good here…
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, [where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The English Standard Version has this…
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The International Standard Version…
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
The Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire at the return of Christ, just as the Millennium begins and are burned to ashes…
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Now, back to Rev 20…
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Note here that at the time the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire, the Great White Throne Judgment has NOT YET OCCURRED!
All the rest of the incorrigibly wicked have not yet been judged! So there is no way to say that verse 10 shows them to be suffering in hell, they have not even been judged yet.
And what is the fate of the wicked?
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The wicked are burned to ashes and live no more…
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
First of all, what is the time frame?
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The time frame is the Millennium. Christ has returned, established the Kingdom of God and the resurrected saints are ruling with Him for 1000 years here on earth (Rev 5:10).
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So, there is some group of people that are called "the rest of the dead" and they are not resurrected until AFTER the Millennium but those resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium are in the FIRST resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So, resurrected saints have reigned with Christ 1000 years in a utopia on earth with no Satan to corrupt the beauty and perfection. Now we come to the end of the Millennium...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
So, Satan is released and immediately he goes about doing what he does best, stirring up hate and discontent. Those humans that Satan has influenced rebel and come down to Jerusalem to attack it. God sends fire from heaven and they are destroyed.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Now that we have a timeline and see that this is at the end of the Millennium, let's see what this verse really says...
Satan the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire. Notice that the verb "are" is in italics? You know that means it was not in the original manuscripts. Secondly, the phrase "where the beast and the false prophet are" is a parenthetical thought. The rules of English tell us that we can remove a parenthetical thought without changing the meaning or sense of the complete sentence, so...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented day and night forever. Now what about the phrase "where the beast and the false prophet are"?
Bullinger has this...
"where also the beast and the false prophet were cast"
The Diaglott simply has...
"where both the wild-beast and the false-prophets"
Let's see if everyone is in this Lake burning and screaming and writhing in pain...
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This passage is at the return of Christ just as the Millennium is about to begin. In other words, 1000 year BEFORE Rev 20:10. Notice that the Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire? What about everyone else? Their carcasses are left in the open and scavenger birds pick them clean but they are not cast into the Lake of Fire.
So what of the Beast and False Prophet? Are they suffering eternal torment? The NIV is very good here…
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, [where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The English Standard Version has this…
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The International Standard Version…
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
The Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire at the return of Christ, just as the Millennium begins and are burned to ashes…
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Now, back to Rev 20…
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Note here that at the time the Devil is cast into the Lake of Fire, the Great White Throne Judgment has NOT YET OCCURRED!
All the rest of the incorrigibly wicked have not yet been judged! So there is no way to say that verse 10 shows them to be suffering in hell, they have not even been judged yet.
And what is the fate of the wicked?
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The wicked are burned to ashes and live no more…
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.