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B
This is a good post and it's NT theology for NT believers. However, eternal redemption is part of that theology that we in Christ, who obtained it for us (Heb 9:12), and the new covenant. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid. If sin abounds that does not stop God from making grace much more abound. Sooner or later that grace is going to teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and lead us into a life to live soberly and righteously in this present evil world. For some it may be sooner and for others later, even 20 -30 years later, but God will raise them up or for those who resist God they will be chastened, scourged and some will sleep. This is how God deals with his own for they have been bought with a price and just because we may observe sin in a brother's life that does not disqualify them from sonship or the grace of God.
so why are you looking at sin, with your other posts.you were never save by law.
ie if we are saved by grace a gift.
God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,Romans 3
stupor is blind, yet claims sin cuts of sons of god.
ie if we are saved by grace a gift.
God's Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,Romans 3
stupor is blind, yet claims sin cuts of sons of god.
First, the disciples spread the good news by word of mouth. But God's people had the Old Testament Holy Scriptures thru various different scrolls which confirmed the Messiah and the good news. The Bereans were more noble because they checked the Scriptures daily to see whether those things be so or not (Acts 17:11). In other words, they confirmed the spoken word with the written Word. Paul and the other apostles would address problems as they arisen by writing various diifferent letters to different churches (i.e. various groups of believers in certain cities). Oh, and no. Many of the Jewish Christians did know the Scriptures since they were children. Even Timothy knew the Scriptures since he was a child.
1 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
Second, back in this time, many of them were persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ. They were called to live out their faith. They were put to the test as it were. Remember the disciples that stopped following Jesus? Do you think they were saved when they just turned around and stopped following our Lord? I see many OSAS proponents here doing exactly that. For they believe that the walk is not necessary. But when Jesus asked his disciples if they wanted to leave, too; Peter replied, "Where shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Meaning, those other disciples were walking away from Jesus' words of eternal life. They were not saved. For the Scriptures say "If they were of us, they would have continued with us."
Now, I am not proposing Legalism here. We are not saved by works. This is an issue of Allegiance and Loyalty. It is an issue of Relationship and not doing a bunch of things so as to be justified. But were the disciples saved by their actions in following Jesus whereas the others disciples who left did not? Well, the other disciples who left did not believe or accept Jesus' words. The words He spoke to them were too hard for them to acccept. They didn't believe Jesus. So they stopped following Him. They were cut off because of unbelief. For how can you be a follower of Jesus and not follow Jesus? Doesn't make any sense. James says true genuine faith is always shown by good works in a believers life. Granted, doing good works does not save you in and of itself. Good works is just the testimony that God lives within you; And one has life or salvation because God is the source of life and salvation. Salvation is not a super power. Salvation is God. Works are done by God thru you (Philippians 2:13) (1 Corinthians 15:10).
As for referencing Scripture that talks about how we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities (demons): Well, what purpose would your struggle against the forces of darkness serve if we were saved no matter what? In other words, if you are "Once Saved Always Saved" then any struggle against the dark realm would be a joke. There would be no spiritual war. There would be no spiritual struggle because you have already won in your mind. You don't need to worry about anything. You can just believe on Jesus and live it up on some beach some where. No need to follow Jesus or talk about Jesus. No need to pray or read the Scriptures ever again. But did the disciples do that? Well, you got OSAS and you are saved and that is it. However, the Scriptures say that all who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution. The Scriptures also say that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdomm of God. Choose this day whom ye will serve. Either the Lord or yourself. You cannot serve both. For you might think you are living right with God, but if you teach others that they can sin and still be saved, then you will have their blood on your hands in leading people into being a slave to their sin (Thinking when they are saved when they are not). For teaching people that they can sin and still accepted by God is wrong and evil. If that is not what you believe, then please explain to me how you are teaching others to live holy then.
1 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
Second, back in this time, many of them were persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ. They were called to live out their faith. They were put to the test as it were. Remember the disciples that stopped following Jesus? Do you think they were saved when they just turned around and stopped following our Lord? I see many OSAS proponents here doing exactly that. For they believe that the walk is not necessary. But when Jesus asked his disciples if they wanted to leave, too; Peter replied, "Where shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Meaning, those other disciples were walking away from Jesus' words of eternal life. They were not saved. For the Scriptures say "If they were of us, they would have continued with us."
Now, I am not proposing Legalism here. We are not saved by works. This is an issue of Allegiance and Loyalty. It is an issue of Relationship and not doing a bunch of things so as to be justified. But were the disciples saved by their actions in following Jesus whereas the others disciples who left did not? Well, the other disciples who left did not believe or accept Jesus' words. The words He spoke to them were too hard for them to acccept. They didn't believe Jesus. So they stopped following Him. They were cut off because of unbelief. For how can you be a follower of Jesus and not follow Jesus? Doesn't make any sense. James says true genuine faith is always shown by good works in a believers life. Granted, doing good works does not save you in and of itself. Good works is just the testimony that God lives within you; And one has life or salvation because God is the source of life and salvation. Salvation is not a super power. Salvation is God. Works are done by God thru you (Philippians 2:13) (1 Corinthians 15:10).
As for referencing Scripture that talks about how we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities (demons): Well, what purpose would your struggle against the forces of darkness serve if we were saved no matter what? In other words, if you are "Once Saved Always Saved" then any struggle against the dark realm would be a joke. There would be no spiritual war. There would be no spiritual struggle because you have already won in your mind. You don't need to worry about anything. You can just believe on Jesus and live it up on some beach some where. No need to follow Jesus or talk about Jesus. No need to pray or read the Scriptures ever again. But did the disciples do that? Well, you got OSAS and you are saved and that is it. However, the Scriptures say that all who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution. The Scriptures also say that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdomm of God. Choose this day whom ye will serve. Either the Lord or yourself. You cannot serve both. For you might think you are living right with God, but if you teach others that they can sin and still be saved, then you will have their blood on your hands in leading people into being a slave to their sin (Thinking when they are saved when they are not). For teaching people that they can sin and still accepted by God is wrong and evil. If that is not what you believe, then please explain to me how you are teaching others to live holy then.
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So there is a "condition" to identifying a true believer then? It seems like you are saying that. Do you realize that there are OSAS proponents would not agree with you on this? For they believe they can sin like the devil and still be saved because their belief on Jesus saves them. Is that not what you are also pushing on some level, too? If I am wrong. Please explain it to me. Tell me, what sins are acceptable to God? Surely you have said here that the sin of not forgiving others is not acceptable to God. Can a believer live in sin (Such as hate, murder, lust, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.) and still be saved? Are these other sins acceptable to you? Or no? I am just trying to determine what you believe. For there are other OSAS proponents out there who believe they can sin and still be saved.
tell me again , who put jesus on the cross.
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.Matthew 16
yet the bible never went to print to 1500 AD.
paul was already dead. before 70 AD.
so it would be safe to say we all read our bibles after this time.
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.Matthew 16
yet the bible never went to print to 1500 AD.
paul was already dead. before 70 AD.
so it would be safe to say we all read our bibles after this time.
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
Sin is sin is sin and to break the least of the commandments is to break them all.....ALL believers SIN including you and the day you figure this out is the day you might be on the road to biblical salvation.....
If WE (including JOHN) say we HAVE NO SIN (present tense) we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US!
There is not a JUST man UPON the earth that DOES GOOD and sins NOT (including SOLOMON)
Even DANIEL confessed HIS SINS
PAUL who wrote almost HALF of the N.T. said he was the NUMBER ONE chief sinner
You guys need to wake up...serious.......! You sin EVERY DAY in some form or fashion....! MAYBE not murder, or stealing or something like that, but your BODY is dead because of SIN and everything you TOUCH is marred by the SIN NATURE your FALLEN body has and to even for a micro-second to have a sinful thought is SIN!
ALL the disciples SINNED and FORSOOK JESUS the night of HIS passion and yet remained SAVED...PETER denied the LORD and yet remained SAVED and PAUL clearly speaks of the difficulties he had with doing and not doing the things he should or should not and even states clearly that when he goes to do GOOD he finds a LAW that SIN is PRESENT with him....
ALL you do (gooders) for SALVATION need to get over the fact that NO ONE is GOOD enough to SAVE themselves and or KEEP themselves SAVED as it is the PERFECT FAITH of JESUS that SAVES us, JUSTIFIES US and KEEPS US SAVED even in spite of ourselves!
If WE (including JOHN) say we HAVE NO SIN (present tense) we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US!
There is not a JUST man UPON the earth that DOES GOOD and sins NOT (including SOLOMON)
Even DANIEL confessed HIS SINS
PAUL who wrote almost HALF of the N.T. said he was the NUMBER ONE chief sinner
You guys need to wake up...serious.......! You sin EVERY DAY in some form or fashion....! MAYBE not murder, or stealing or something like that, but your BODY is dead because of SIN and everything you TOUCH is marred by the SIN NATURE your FALLEN body has and to even for a micro-second to have a sinful thought is SIN!
ALL the disciples SINNED and FORSOOK JESUS the night of HIS passion and yet remained SAVED...PETER denied the LORD and yet remained SAVED and PAUL clearly speaks of the difficulties he had with doing and not doing the things he should or should not and even states clearly that when he goes to do GOOD he finds a LAW that SIN is PRESENT with him....
ALL you do (gooders) for SALVATION need to get over the fact that NO ONE is GOOD enough to SAVE themselves and or KEEP themselves SAVED as it is the PERFECT FAITH of JESUS that SAVES us, JUSTIFIES US and KEEPS US SAVED even in spite of ourselves!
Please re-read the end of Romans 8 again. Where does it say "your sin" (i.e. your lusts) or "yourself" is on that list? Remember, when a person sins, they are drawn away and enticed by their own lusts and desires.
As for the Tax Collector and the Pharisee: I am not saying I am better than you in any way. For where did I boast about myself? On the contrary, I have said many times here at CC that I am nothing and Christ is everything. I am just a fragile clay jar ready to fitted for the master's use and to be smashed for his glory. Christ deserves all the glory, honor, and power. For he that thinks that he is something when he is nothing deceives themselves. We only have worth because of Jesus Christ. We are only kings and priests because of Christ. However, the OSAS proponent thinks they are God's child who does not need to repent and cry out to God. This is how the Pharisee behaved in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. Whereas the Tax Collector cried out to God to have mercy on him in the fact that he was a sinner. The Tax Collector was humble before God. The Tax Collector had Godly sorrow. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. But OSAS sings a different tune. A tune that you do not need to have Godly sorrow in order to be saved. It teaches you can live however you like and you are still saved.
As for the Tax Collector and the Pharisee: I am not saying I am better than you in any way. For where did I boast about myself? On the contrary, I have said many times here at CC that I am nothing and Christ is everything. I am just a fragile clay jar ready to fitted for the master's use and to be smashed for his glory. Christ deserves all the glory, honor, and power. For he that thinks that he is something when he is nothing deceives themselves. We only have worth because of Jesus Christ. We are only kings and priests because of Christ. However, the OSAS proponent thinks they are God's child who does not need to repent and cry out to God. This is how the Pharisee behaved in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. Whereas the Tax Collector cried out to God to have mercy on him in the fact that he was a sinner. The Tax Collector was humble before God. The Tax Collector had Godly sorrow. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. But OSAS sings a different tune. A tune that you do not need to have Godly sorrow in order to be saved. It teaches you can live however you like and you are still saved.
E
what some people says does not matter, I am not here to defend them, I am here to defend Gods truth.
and yes, james said a person who claims to have faith but has NO work, is not saved, their faith is dead.
Nope. I am not stating this at all. But it seems you are. as all legalists do.
as long as I do not do the sins people can see (fornication, homosexuality, murder, etc etc) which all of you guys bring up. I am ok, I can live however I want, admit i fail from time to time, do the sacrament of confession and ask Gods forgiveness, and I am resaved..
No sin is acceptable to God. so why are you excusing your sin, while judging others sin?
John said a believer can;t live in sin, because they have been born of God.
he also said those who live in sin have never seen or known God.
thanks, but I chose to trust John on this one. so why can;t you?
and there you go with that list again? what about the sin you commit on a daily basis? I guess those are ok?
what they believe does not matter, nor does it negate the grace of God to whom it was truly given.
why are you going to reject the grace of God, just because some people misuse it? thats a sad excuse if you ask me.
E
Nothing means nothing.
are are you going to tell me that nothing does not really mean nothing?
Jesus said NO ONE can pluck us from his hands. are you not a person, are you not an anyone? that you think you can pluck yourself from Gods hands?
you say it every time you claim salvation can be lost.
you claim your not like the sinner, in at the very least when you do sin (no pride there) you at least confess, where they do not.
that is puffing onself up. just like the pharisee did.
are are you going to tell me that nothing does not really mean nothing?
Jesus said NO ONE can pluck us from his hands. are you not a person, are you not an anyone? that you think you can pluck yourself from Gods hands?
you say it every time you claim salvation can be lost.
you claim your not like the sinner, in at the very least when you do sin (no pride there) you at least confess, where they do not.
that is puffing onself up. just like the pharisee did.
Read the book of Leviticus. Animal sacrifices were performed for unintentional/ignorant sins only, that were committed by the people for a temporary atonement for sin. There is not forgiveness for sin that was willful or Intentional! Sins that were intentional by the people were either CUT OFF from the Israelite community/people or PUT TO DEATH. I believe God is giving us a object lesson about sin here (since Paul say the OT is for teaching, rebuking, exhorting), Willful sin is an intentional ongoing rebellion against God, and there is no forgiveness for that.
First, you are very cryptic in your responses to me. I cannot tell if you are trying to justify a sin and still be saved doctrine or not. On the one hand you say that you are not stating you cannot sin and still be saved (And agree with me that others who do live in sin are not saved), and then on the other hand you deny that confession and repentance of sin as if you did not have to express Godly sorrow over your sin and or forsake it. For you falsely claim that I abide in such sins on a daily basis which is not true. This tells me that you think it is normal to sin every day as a believer and that having a belief on Jesus is all you need. This is just double talk non-sense. You need to explain yourself clearly. Now, does a believer mess up from time to time? Sure they do. David messed up big time in sinning. But guess what happened in time after he sinned? He repented of his sin. For David did not live in a habitual lifetyle of sin with a belief on God the rest of his life thinking he was saved after he confessed. Jesus defined repentance for us. Jesus said, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah;" (Matthew 12:41). Jonah 3:10 defines the Ninevites repentance as forsaking their evil ways. Paul says if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godlnesss is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
Second, I am not a Works Salvationist. I have argued against Works Salvationists many times. I believe I am saved right now by trusting in God's grace and finished work upon the cross. If I mess up, I go back and throw myself down before the Lord and seek His mercy to maintain my right standing with Him. This does not mean God immediately withdraws His Spirit from a believer everytime they sin. What this means is that God will continue to abide with a person who He knows will repent of their sin. But if a believer refuses the the Holy Spirit's conviction of repentance upon their sin and God knows they will not repent, then God will withdraw from them. Why? Because that person does not truly love God anymore. They love their sin more. But throwing yourself down before the Lord (in seeking his mercy) is not a work. It takes no effort to do that. You do not have to re-arrange your schedule, or muster up strength, or acquire a skill to do such a thing.
Third, holiness and fruitful works is just evidence that God lives in you. They do not save in and of themselves. They merely show that one's faith is true.
Okay, so if you believe others misuse God's grace, then how exactly is your faith different than their faith? Please do a side by side comparison for me.
Second, I am not a Works Salvationist. I have argued against Works Salvationists many times. I believe I am saved right now by trusting in God's grace and finished work upon the cross. If I mess up, I go back and throw myself down before the Lord and seek His mercy to maintain my right standing with Him. This does not mean God immediately withdraws His Spirit from a believer everytime they sin. What this means is that God will continue to abide with a person who He knows will repent of their sin. But if a believer refuses the the Holy Spirit's conviction of repentance upon their sin and God knows they will not repent, then God will withdraw from them. Why? Because that person does not truly love God anymore. They love their sin more. But throwing yourself down before the Lord (in seeking his mercy) is not a work. It takes no effort to do that. You do not have to re-arrange your schedule, or muster up strength, or acquire a skill to do such a thing.
Third, holiness and fruitful works is just evidence that God lives in you. They do not save in and of themselves. They merely show that one's faith is true.
Okay, so if you believe others misuse God's grace, then how exactly is your faith different than their faith? Please do a side by side comparison for me.
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E
You must not be able to read. I am not trying to justify any sin, it seems to me, you are the one trying to justify alot of sin, while judging others for their own sin.
Me, I know I sin, and I know I have an Abba father who will lead me in the right area. and keep me on the straight and narrow. in spite of my flaws.
do you know how to read? there is nothing cryptic about what I said.
Me, I know I sin, and I know I have an Abba father who will lead me in the right area. and keep me on the straight and narrow. in spite of my flaws.
do you know how to read? there is nothing cryptic about what I said.
The word "nothing" is in context to external things that are mentioned. It is not in context to you or your sin. If that is the case, then even non-believers would be saved then.
As for not being plucked out of Jesus' hand: This is in context to those sheep who hear his voice, and who know and follow Him (John 10:27).
As for your statement about the Tax Collector and the Pharisee: Uh, I am setting the example of the Tax Collector and not the Pharisee because I do cry out to God to have mercy on me at times like the Tax Collector. It is the Pharisee who did not have Godly sorrow that was the problem.
As for not being plucked out of Jesus' hand: This is in context to those sheep who hear his voice, and who know and follow Him (John 10:27).
As for your statement about the Tax Collector and the Pharisee: Uh, I am setting the example of the Tax Collector and not the Pharisee because I do cry out to God to have mercy on me at times like the Tax Collector. It is the Pharisee who did not have Godly sorrow that was the problem.
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E
How would that be so?
Did God take a non believers in his hands and adopt them as children?
he never made any claim that a non believer could be taken away, for he has never adopted them..
nice try, but it seams you have hit a wall.. and are trying to excuse your own belief system here, even you should understand it would not pertain to a non child of God.
which would be all those who come to him in faith would it not? did he also not say if one left, he would leave the flock to go get them.
his sheep do hear his voice, thats why they always return.
No your not. you do not even believe God can save you eternally. your still trying to save yourself.
Your on here speaking about all the sinning osas people. your just like the pharisee.
"Thank God I am not like all the sinning people who use OSAS as and excuse for their sin.. I do all these great works for God. I do not sin, i do what God asks.
This is what you sould like. that does not sound like the tax collector.
Okay, it is obvious you are getting emotional over this. For you are now putting words in my mouth that I did not say. I did not claim I was perfect or that I was better than anyone else. But Paul says the unrighteous wil not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is Scripture. If you have a problem with it, take it up with God. God will not tolerate willful rebellion against him. But as I stated before, the person who repents and has Godly sorrow is likened unto the Tax Collector. The Pharisee did not repent and or have Godly sorrow. This is the attitude of the OSAS belief. No repentance is truly required. I did not state that I was better than you or anyone else. Those are your words. Not mine. But God has a dim view on doing evil. It's not wrong to say that God's people in doing evil is wrong. There will be no sin or evil in Heaven. God does not change your behavior (after you die) so that you can enter Heaven. God is changing and perfecting His saint's behaviors now while they are alive. God's people do not do evil. I claimed that I was nothing. Yet you are falsely putting words in my mouth and claiming otherwise.
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I mean think about it. Why did Jesus attack the Pharisees? Was it because they did not believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine? Or was it because they were appearing to be righteous when in reality they ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, love, and mercy?
If you do not believe Jesus' words apply to you, then why read the gospels? If you do not believe Jesus' words apply to you then why did Paul say that any man who teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing? (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
If you do not believe Jesus' words apply to you, then why read the gospels? If you do not believe Jesus' words apply to you then why did Paul say that any man who teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing? (1 Timothy 6:3-4).