Legalism empowers DEMONS in your life!

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S

sparty-g

Guest
I have already showed you where the Word of God says that for a believer this very thing is true...

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Please, please, please do not take this post as negative or insulting. We're all brothers and sisters here who are trying to reason with one another. I think this use of Scripture in defense of others' use of Matt. 5:17-20 is exactly what some on here find troublesome, myself included. You seem to prefer a specific interpretation, which inserts notions foreign to the text (e.g., the passages are about the commands of the Torah-Law, when they are actually about our sin and charges against us for our trespasses), over the multiple, clear witnesses throughout the Scriptures. Let's investigate this a bit.

The Greek word being used here for "old things" is ἀρχαῖα (archaia) -- the root being "old" or "past" or "earlier" (look it up in Strong's; all other variations of the word are a spin on something old or past or earlier -- old or past or earlier days, old or past or earlier prophets, old or past or earlier generations, etc.). Please consider that the "old" or "past" or "earlier" thing here is connected to the person. This is the immediate context since it's in a sentence about a man becoming a new creature. Now look to the verses before and after this one. What is Paul talking about connected to the man becoming a new creature? Their sinful life in the flesh. Paul says they "regard no one according to the flesh" and God "no longer is counting their trespasses against them." It's the same issue I've seen with your other interpretations, including Col. 2:14: You make everything about the commands of the Torah-Law, when they're all actually about our sin and charges against us for our trespasses. The old self regarding sin has passed away and we've become new creatures. Our sins have been nailed to the cross. NOT the commands of the Torah-Law have passed away and become new. NOT the commands of the Torah-Law have been nailed to the cross.

Now let's turn to Matt. 5:17-20:

“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (NIV)

Simple test: Look out the window and see if heaven and earth are still here. Yes, they are. This means nothing will pass from the Torah-Law until heaven and earth do pass away. "Everything is accomplished" refers to God's complete plan of redemption, which is not yet fully accomplished. That happens at the end of days, the same time when heaven and earth pass away, and there are no more tears, no more suffering, and God lives with His children forever. This is clearly described in Rev. 21:

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away the old order of things has passed away “I am making everything new!” “It is done."(NIV)

THAT is when everything is accomplished. THAT is when the old order of things has finally passed away. THAT is when IT IS DONE. Why did the Messiah reference heaven and earth needing to pass away before the Torah-Law would pass? It's simple: He was affirming a truth already established by Moses, who established heaven and earth as witnesses to the permanence of the Torah-Law (cf., Deut. 30:19-20a). There are more verses that say this same exact thing regarding when heaven and earth pass away (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:7, 10-13). Multiple witnesses all saying the same thing throughout the full breadth of Scripture (Moses, Prophets, Messiah, Apostles, and Book of Revelation). How much more evidence do we need to firmly establish a matter???

Right now, the Torah-Law and Prophets are not entirely fulfilled. There are many prophecies concerning God's redemption plan and the Messiah that have not yet come to pass. This is the simple reality of the Messiah's dual purposes as Suffering Servant and Conquering King. He comes twice. By insisting that He already fulfilled everything, you are agreeing with the non-Messianic Jewish expectation that the Messiah is to accomplish everything in a single coming. This is one of the things that keeps them from believing! The only difference is you think it already happened, and they think it will happen in the future. The rest of us understand that He fulfilled part of His mission (and the accompanying prophecies) in the first century and will fulfill the rest of His mission (and the accompanying prophecies) in the latter days.

And continuing in the rest of the passage from Matthew, the Messiah reaches His next logical conclusion about the present permanence of the Torah-Law: Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Interpretation: Heaven and earth are still here and all is not accomplished, thus no jot or tittle has disappeared from the Torah-Law, thus teach and keep even the least of the commands. It's very straightforward, simple logic. To give the final reinforcement of His case, He exhorts us to be more righteous than the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law. And what was one of His chief problems with the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law, as evidenced by the Gospels? They were hypocrites who did not keep the Torah-Law! They put their own rules above the commands, thus setting aside the commands (Mar 7:9 -- And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"), and they instructed others to keep it but did not keep it themselves (Matt. 23:3 -- So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.).

To get back to my original point of this post, please consider that Paul's writings are affirmed to be difficult to understand and lead to the error of the lawless, according to 2 Peter 3. The NT writings verify how to apply this warning with clear examples: Paul is accused all throughout Acts of walking in disobedience to the Torah-Law (see my previous post on Acts). The NT writings never say the false accusations against Paul were that he taught to keep the Torah-Law.

I get it, we all interpret when we read the texts. We all make mistakes. But context matters. And harmony with the other authors of the Scriptures matters. I suggest using the clear verses to reason with how to handle the unclear verses. And moreover specifically, I suggest using the clear words of God and the Messiah to reason with how to handle the unclear verses. Blessings to you~
 
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M

Mitspa

Guest
Please, please, please do not take this post as negative or insulting. We're all brothers and sisters here who are trying to reason with one another. I think this use of Scripture in defense of others' use of Matt. 5:17-20 is exactly what some on here find troublesome, myself included. You seem to prefer your own interpretation, which inserts notions foreign to the text, over the multiple, clear witnesses throughout the Scriptures. Let's investigate this a bit.

The Greek word being used here for "old things" is ἀρχαῖα (archaia) -- the root being "old" or "past" or "earlier" (look it up in Strong's; all other variations of the word are a spin on something old or past or earlier -- old or past or earlier days, old or past or earlier prophets, old or past or earlier generations, etc.). Please consider that the "old" or "past" or "earlier" thing here is connected to the person. This is the immediate context since it's in a sentence about a man becoming a new creature. Now look to the verses before and after this one. What is Paul talking about connected to the man becoming a new creature? Their sinful life in the flesh. Paul says they "regard no one according to the flesh" and God "no longer is counting their trespasses against them." It's the same issue I've seen with your other interpretations, including Col. 2:14: You make everything about the commands of the Torah-Law, when they're all actually about our sin and charges against us for our trespasses. The old self regarding sin has passed away and we've become new creatures. Our sins have been nailed to the cross. NOT the commands of the Torah-Law have passed away and become new. NOT the commands of the Torah-Law have been nailed to the cross.

Now let's turn to Matt. 5:17-20:

“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (NIV)

Simple test: Look out the window and see if heaven and earth are still here. Yes, they are. This means nothing will pass from the Torah-Law until heaven and earth do pass away. "Everything is accomplished" refers to God's complete plan of redemption, which is not yet fully accomplished. That happens at the end of days, the same time when heaven and earth pass away, and there are no more tears, no more suffering, and God lives with His children forever. This is clearly described in Rev. 21:

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away the old order of things has passed away “I am making everything new!” “It is done."(NIV)

THAT is when everything is accomplished. THAT is when the old order of things has finally passed away. THAT is when IT IS DONE. Why did the Messiah reference heaven and earth needing to pass away before the Torah-Law would pass? It's simple: He was affirming a truth already established by Moses, who established heaven and earth as witnesses to the permanence of the Torah-Law (cf., Deut. 30:19-20a). There are more verses that say this same exact thing regarding when heaven and earth pass away (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:7, 10-13). Multiple witnesses all saying the same thing throughout the full breadth of Scripture (Moses, Prophets, Messiah, Apostles, and Book of Revelation). How much more evidence do we need to firmly establish a matter???

Right now, the Torah-Law and Prophets are not entirely fulfilled. There are many prophecies concerning God's redemption plan and the Messiah that have not yet come to pass. This is the simple reality of the Messiah's dual purposes as Suffering Servant and Conquering King. He comes twice. By insisting that He already fulfilled everything, you are agreeing with the non-Messianic Jewish expectation that the Messiah is to accomplish everything in a single coming. This is one of the things that keeps them from believing! The only difference is you think it already happened, and they think it will happen in the future. The rest of us understand that He fulfilled part of His mission (and the accompanying prophecies) in the first century and will fulfill the rest of His mission (and the accompanying prophecies) in the latter days.

And continuing in the rest of the passage from Matthew, the Messiah reaches His next logical conclusion about the present permanence of the Torah-Law: Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Interpretation: Heaven and earth are still here and all is not accomplished, thus no jot or tittle has disappeared from the Torah-Law, thus teach and keep even the least of the commands. It's very straightforward, simple logic. To give the final reinforcement of His case, He exhorts us to be more righteous than the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law. And what was one of His chief problems with the Pharisees and teachers of the Torah-Law, as evidenced by the Gospels? They were hypocrites who did not keep the Torah-Law! They put their own rules above the commands, thus setting aside the commands (Mar 7:9 -- And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"), and they instructed others to keep it but did not keep it themselves (Matt. 23:3 -- So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.).

To get back to my original point of this post, please consider that Paul's writings are affirmed to be difficult to understand and lead to the error of the lawless, according to 2 Peter 3. The NT writings verify how to apply this warning with clear examples: Paul is accused all throughout Acts of walking in disobedience to the Torah-Law (see my previous post on Acts). The NT writings never say the false accusations against Paul were that he taught to keep the Torah-Law.
I get it, we all interpret when we read the texts. We all make mistakes. But context matters. And harmony with the other authors of the Scriptures matters. I suggest using the clear verses to reason with how to handle the unclear verses. And moreover specifically, I suggest using the clear words of God and the Messiah to reason with how to handle the unclear verses. Blessings to you~
Lets try to believe the bible...just because you cant see it in the temporal physical realm don't mean the bible is not true...

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Old things passed away...behold ALL THINGS have become new!
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
I'm sorry, I don't know why but part of the Revelation 21 verse disappeared, probably due to my user error. Here is the full text:

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done." (NIV)
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I'm sorry, I don't know why but part of the Revelation 21 verse disappeared, probably due to my user error. Here is the full text:

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done." (NIV)
One day the whole world will see but we Christians should already see...

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Old things passed away...behold ALL THINGS have become new!
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Old things passed away...behold ALL THINGS have become new!
I'm going to pass over the 2 Cor. 4:18 verse because, honestly, it has nothing directly to say about what we are discussing. You're simply using it as a way to dismiss what I'm saying instead of the confronting the Scripture and perspective I'm bringing.

Regarding your emphasis on ALL THINGS have become new, this is absolutely false. I've shown you a plain, straightforward verse from Rev. 21 that says there are still old things here.

The old heaven and earth are still here:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Rev 21:1, NIV)

Some "old order" of things is still here:
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Rev 21:3-4, NIV)

There's plenty of old stuff here. "All things" doesn't literally mean every manner of old things. Again, look to the context of the passage. There is no mention of the commands of the Torah-Law.

Moreover, look to the Greek. The phrase is "idou gegonen kaina" -- "behold [the] new has emerged." There is no Greek word equivalent to "all." Check it on BibleHub.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,985
4,604
113
It has in fact passed away for those in Christ...if you believe the bible?

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

AND AGAIN you are adding and subtracting from what the Scriptures actually say, to make it fit your twisted false theology.

THAT has NOTHING to do with the LAW, as you are trying to make it say. The only thing that was abolished is the Sacrificial System of offering the blood of lambs or other animals to COVER your braking of the Law. The LAW remains totally intact as long as the Earth and it's atmosphere are STILL HERE, therefore it is still VERY RELEVANT as far as identifying and convicting human beings of SINS that need to be repented of.

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law tillall is fulfilled. {Clearly the "all is fulfilled" includes the atmosphere and earth passing away.}



What 2 Cor 5:17, is talking about is our OLD NATURE, which IF YOU ARE BORN AGAIN, has completely Changed, and thus you become a Child of GOD.

HERE read it in the Simplified English translation called GOD's Word Translation:

2 Corinthians 5:17 (GW)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence.

THIS IS WHAT THAT ALL MEANS:

Ephesians 4:20-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you have not so learned Christ,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW PASSING AWAY, but rather
IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR CONDUCT AND NATURE.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
no that's what it clearly says!

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
no that's what it clearly says!

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
On 2 Cor. 5:17, look to the Greek. The phrase is "idou gegonen kaina" -- "behold [the] new has emerged." There is no Greek word equivalent to "all." Check it on BibleHub.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I'm going to pass over the 2 Cor. 4:18 verse because, honestly, it has nothing directly to say about what we are discussing. You're simply using it as a way to dismiss what I'm saying instead of the confronting the Scripture and perspective I'm bringing.

Regarding your emphasis on ALL THINGS have become new, this is absolutely false. I've shown you a plain, straightforward verse from Rev. 21 that says there are still old things here.

The old heaven and earth are still here:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Rev 21:1, NIV)

Some "old order" of things is still here:
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Rev 21:3-4, NIV)

There's plenty of old stuff here. "All things" doesn't literally mean every manner of old things. Again, look to the context of the passage. There is no mention of the commands of the Torah-Law.

Moreover, look to the Greek. The phrase is "idou gegonen kaina" -- "behold [the] new has emerged." There is no Greek word equivalent to "all." Check it on BibleHub.
lol your going to ignore the scripture? Sorry I don't do that!

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Old things passed away...behold ALL THINGS have become new!
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
no that's what it clearly says!

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
On 2 Cor. 5:17, look to the Greek. The phrase is "idou gegonen kaina" -- "behold [the] new has emerged." There is no Greek word equivalent to "all." Check it on BibleHub.
Well, you have a serious problem, my friend. You have a verse from Paul that you interpret as clearly saying everything has become new, and verses from Rev. that clearly state there are some old things here. Moreover, the Greek doesn't say "all," thus undermining your interpretation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Gentlemen, we are matching wits with an unarmed man here...

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,289
6,576
113
My roblem is, truly, seeing people mention "legalistic," legalism", or just he "law," many are accusing the brethren who, like I, love to find our Father's desire for our conduct and obey, even though we know we are living in the grace afforded by the Blood of the Lamb of God. It does not please any of us to be labeled as "under the law," or "legalistic," simply because we are so gratweful to our Father we wish to be obedient according to the teachings of God, that is Jesus, in the Old and the New testaments, for the law is not evil, it is holy and good, and when obeyed lawfully, it fulfills any context of the titled children of obedience.

I have no problem with anything except when one is preaching as though he understands, without listening or seing. When you find a true reason not to obey the law as taught by Jesus Christ, I will listen, but uintil then I will never except any child of God' being obedient to the law according to Jesus Christ as being under the law..

Jesus Christ does not teach those who teach against the law are not goint to be in heaven, but He does definitely teach all who teach agains the least of the laws will be least in heaven.

Thus as one who believes Jesus Christ, I pray and plead with all to study the law according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and you will all be the better for it. Praise Jesus Christ, Lord, amen.


Your problem is that obedience is not in legalism, that's a false form of godliness to justify the flesh of man....obedience is faith working by love...that's the Spirit of God working in a believer to will and act according to His good purpose.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your obedience by the written code of the law is no more than the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees ...its dead works! It profits NOTHING!

Its the flesh trying to justify the flesh!
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
On 2 Cor. 5:17, look to the Greek. The phrase is "idou gegonen kaina" -- "behold [the] new has emerged." There is no Greek word equivalent to "all." Check it on BibleHub.
Sorry I read Greek quite well, and its a evident the KJV has it right.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
There is a prerequisite to understanding the truth...

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
lol your going to ignore the scripture? Sorry I don't do that!

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Old things passed away...behold ALL THINGS have become new!
Come on now, be reasonable. There's a difference between ignoring Scripture that is directly related to the discussion topic and not responding to a passage that is not related. If I were to suddenly quote John 3:16, I would hope you wouldn't respond because it doesn't have anything specific to say about this topic. Again, your use of 2 Cor. 4:18 is nothing more than an attempt to say I'm only focusing on the temporal ("seen things") and not the eternal ("unseen things"), while you are correctly looking at the "unseen things." Let's please keep the verses relevant to the discussion topic at hand and not refer to general platitudes about understanding.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
My roblem is, truly, seeing people mention "legalistic," legalism", or just he "law," many are accusing the brethren who, like I, love to find our Father's desire for our conduct and obey, even though we know we are living in the grace afforded by the Blood of the Lamb of God. It does not please any of us to be labeled as "under the law," or "legalistic," simply because we are so gratweful to our Father we wish to be obedient according to the teachings of God, that is Jesus, in the Old and the New testaments, for the law is not evil, it is holy and good, and when obeyed lawfully, it fulfills any context of the titled children of obedience.

I have no problem with anything except when one is preaching as though he understands, without listening or seing. When you find a true reason not to obey the law as taught by Jesus Christ, I will listen, but uintil then I will never except any child of God' being obedient to the law according to Jesus Christ as being under the law..

Jesus Christ does not teach those who teach against the law are not goint to be in heaven, but He does definitely teach all who teach agains the least of the laws will be least in heaven.

Thus as one who believes Jesus Christ, I pray and plead with all to study the law according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and you will all be the better for it. Praise Jesus Christ, Lord, amen.
Again obedience is not by the "letter" the legal code...its by faith and love...the "spirit"..

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
Sorry I read Greek quite well, and its a evident the KJV has it right.
I accept that may be the case and I admit I have no Greek understanding. I study Hebrew. So please, bring down the phrase for me word-by-word in the Greek and English to show me that "all" is included. If you can do that, I'll concede that the KJV is the better translation. But I won't concede that "all things" includes all manner of things when it clearly does not according to Rev. 21. That would require you to confront those texts head on.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Come on now, be reasonable. There's a difference between ignoring Scripture that is directly related to the discussion topic and not responding to a passage that is not related. If I were to suddenly quote John 3:16, I would hope you wouldn't respond because it doesn't have anything specific to say about this topic. Again, your use of 2 Cor. 4:18 is nothing more than an attempt to say I'm only focusing on the temporal ("seen things") and not the eternal ("unseen things"), while you are correctly looking at the "unseen things." Let's please keep the verses relevant to the discussion topic at hand and not refer to general platitudes about understanding.
Reasonable? The point you made was you could not see things with your natural eyes, therefore the scripture was untrue in some way?...how is this scripture not a direct answer to your point and you lack of biblical understanding? If you really think that we are supposed to ignore scripture to understand scripture, no wonder your so confused about the New Testament?


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become ne
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I accept that may be the case and I admit I have no Greek understanding. I study Hebrew. So please, bring down the phrase for me word-by-word in the Greek and English to show me that "all" is included. If you can do that, I'll concede that the KJV is the better translation. But I won't concede that "all things" includes all manner of things when it clearly does not according to Rev. 21. That would require you to confront those texts head on.
maybe this will help?

2Co 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:17 (ASV) Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
2Co 5:17 (BBE) So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new.
2Co 5:17 (DBY) So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
2Co 5:17 (MKJV) So that if any one [is] in Christ, [that one is] a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (Oracl) For, if any one be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!

2Co 5:17 (RSV) Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

2Co 5:17 (WEB) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (WNT) So that if any one is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old state of things has passed away; a new state of things has come into existence.
2Co 5:17 (YLT) so that if any one [is] in Christ--[he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
There is a prerequisite to understanding the truth...

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.