Legalism empowers DEMONS in your life!

[VCO]

Your problem is that obedience is not in legalism, that's a false form of godliness to justify the flesh of man....obedience is faith working by love...that's the Spirit of God working in a believer to will and act according to His good purpose.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your obedience by the written code of the law is no more than the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees ...its dead works! It profits NOTHING!

Its the flesh trying to justify the flesh!

James 2:17-19 (ISV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, faith by itself, if it doesn't have any works, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But someone may say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without any works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.

James 2:14 (ISV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but doesn't have any works? This kind of faith can't save him, can it? {The implied answer is: NO!}

1 John 2:4 (ISV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The person who says, "I have come to know him," but doesn't continually keep his commandments is a liar. The truth is not in that person.


NO, we do not KEEP the commandments to earn part of our salvation, but rather BECAUSE HE LOVED US ENOUGH TO DO ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED TO SAVE US, we want to LOVE HIM back, and that LOVE is manifested in our Obedience to His Commandments.

 

[JaumeJ]

My post is clear by inferenc that one should obey the law with understanding according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. In so understanding it would be obedience in spirit and truth, and not under the letter of the law as though one is learning all things rot. It seems those who speak against obedience of the law have learned what they know exactly so, rote, and not with love, mercy, long suffering, patience, and understanding. This will only be achieved by asking for truth. Our Father has made i wonderful safeguard in this regard. People see but do ot perceive, they hear, but they do not understand, having both eyes and ears. This situation with so many has always been the reality in the apostasy that began in the times even of the Apostles.

Again obedience is not by the "letter" the legal co





de...its by faith and love...the "spirit"..

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[sparty-g]

maybe this will help?

2Co 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:17 (ASV) Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
2Co 5:17 (BBE) So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new.
2Co 5:17 (DBY) So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
2Co 5:17 (MKJV) So that if any one [is] in Christ, [that one is] a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (Oracl) For, if any one be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!

2Co 5:17 (RSV) Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

2Co 5:17 (WEB) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:17 (WNT) So that if any one is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old state of things has passed away; a new state of things has come into existence.
2Co 5:17 (YLT) so that if any one [is] in Christ--[he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

Thanks for bringing multiple translations, but it doesn't ultimately help. All you've shown is that several different translations don't agree with each other about how to render "idou gegonen kaina" in English. Some say "all things," others don't. You read and understand Greek, give me your translation word by word.

 

[Mitspa]

James 2:17-19 (ISV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, faith by itself, if it doesn't have any works, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But someone may say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without any works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear.

James 2:14 (ISV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but doesn't have any works? This kind of faith can't save him, can it? {The implied answer is: NO!}

1 John 2:4 (ISV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The person who says, "I have come to know him," but doesn't continually keep his commandments is a liar. The truth is not in that person.


NO, we do not KEEP the commandments to earn part of our salvation, but rather BECAUSE HE LOVED US ENOUGH TO DO ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED TO SAVE US, we want to LOVE HIM back, and that LOVE is manifested in our Obedience to His Commandments.

His Commandments are faith and love...not legalism!

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Your problem is that obedience is not in legalism, that's a false form of godliness to justify the flesh of man....obedience is faith working by love...that's the Spirit of God working in a believer to will and act according to His good purpose.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your obedience by the written code of the law is no more than the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees ...its dead works! It profits NOTHING!

Its the flesh trying to justify the flesh!

I offer this only partially in jest, my brother.



Pharisees are going to be Pharisees regardless of what we say to them, what Scripture we quote, or how bold, italicized. and underlined we make our posts. Nothing we can do about it. They want to be Pharisees. Why anyone would want to go before Jesus and have Him say, "Depart from Me! I never knew you!" is beyond me, but that, apparently, is their desire.

I don't even bother anymore. It's pointless. The message board version of Valium 10mg is "Ignore."

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks for bringing multiple translations, but it doesn't ultimately help. All you've shown is that several different translations don't agree with each other about how to render "idou gegonen kaina" in English. Some say "all things," others don't. You read and understand Greek, give me your translation word by word.

Idou ..is behold ...gegoue ..has become...kaien...new...your not even on the point of the issue your trying to raise...I doubt I can give you a Greek lesson, but can suggest some good books to help you get started.

 

[VCO]

what is your point. 70 ad proves. who can follow the full law. (jesus is back in heaven)
if you cant read the bible in context ,to what is written, what difference will it make to speculation to a spiritual meaning.
even if you claim to be a apostle of jesus, you still cant follow the law, that was give to moses, the same way jesus christ did without a temple of stone.

why are you talking about commandments. when you would already know a new covenant never left the law in place for a gentile. even acts 15 proves this.

so have a bigger view to what god did, the quote below are a guide to help you see this.

those who believe in him, because of jesus christ grace, get automatic forgiveness.
43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."Acts 10

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3


this would ask how can he reach the end of the world with the message. ie through jesus christ.
6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49:

and forgiveness but how will the get forgiveness.
18 Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity
and passing over transgression
for the remnant of his inheritance?
He does not retain his anger forever,
because he delights in steadfast love.Micah 7


even the prophets proclaim the forgiveness.

grace a gift from god to the children that believe in god through jesus christ.

☝t<><

Calm your jets.

I was only pointing that out to confront the false teaching that the Old Testament Law passed away.

NO WAY do I believe our obedience adds anything to our Salvation. CHRIST DID IT ALL.

Our Obedience is how we manifest our LOVE for Christ.

By the way, the LAW remains for us TOO, not just the Gentiles. It is what makes us aware of sins in our lives that NEED TO BE CONFESSED AND REPENTED OF.

 

[Mitspa]

I offer this only partially in jest, my brother.

View attachment 100013

Pharisees are going to be Pharisees regardless of what we say to them, what Scripture we quote, or how bold, italicized. and underlined we make our posts. Nothing we can do about it. They want to be Pharisees. Why anyone would want to go before Jesus and have Him say, "Depart from Me! I never knew you!" is beyond me, but that, apparently, is their desire.

I don't even bother anymore. It's pointless. The message board version of Valium 10mg is "Ignore."

Well its good practice and I enjoy the search in the scriptures...don't worry I don't get upset anymore and I always have a smile on my face and love in my heart, even for these that seem to reject the truth and are so bitter towards others who believe and love the truth

 

[BradC]

My roblem is, truly, seeing people mention "legalistic," legalism", or just he "law," many are accusing the brethren who, like I, love to find our Father's desire for our conduct and obey, even though we know we are living in the grace afforded by the Blood of the Lamb of God. It does not please any of us to be labeled as "under the law," or "legalistic," simply because we are so gratweful to our Father we wish to be obedient according to the teachings of God, that is Jesus, in the Old and the New testaments, for the law is not evil, it is holy and good, and when obeyed lawfully, it fulfills any context of the titled children of obedience.

I have no problem with anything except when one is preaching as though he understands, without listening or seing. When you find a true reason not to obey the law as taught by Jesus Christ, I will listen, but uintil then I will never except any child of God' being obedient to the law according to Jesus Christ as being under the law..

Jesus Christ does not teach those who teach against the law are not goint to be in heaven, but He does definitely teach all who teach agains the least of the laws will be least in heaven.

Thus as one who believes Jesus Christ, I pray and plead with all to study the law according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and you will all be the better for it. Praise Jesus Christ, Lord, amen.

You are the first to tell us on this site to listen and obey the words of Christ. Well, we have a commandment to go into all the world and preach the gospel, make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Are you obeying the commandment of Christ the same way you would keep the Sabbath? Is not one soul worth more than the whole world? Does keeping the Sabbath have more value and weight then to convert a sinner from the error of their way and save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins? I suggest that those whole believe in keeping the Sabbath should also on a regular basis go out and preach the gospel to every creature and by failing to do so you are being a respecter of the commandments. God is love and God sent his Son because he loved the world so that sinful man could believe and not perish. If we have the love of God we will understand that our Lord came to seek and save that which is lost and that as servants we are not greater than our Master. He that winneth souls is wise and loving our neighbor as ourselves is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[sparty-g]

Reasonable? The point you made was you could not see things with your natural eyes, therefore the scripture was untrue in some way?...how is this scripture not a direct answer to your point and you lack of biblical understanding? If you really think that we are supposed to ignore scripture to understand scripture, no wonder your so confused about the New Testament?


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

Yes, but think about your logic here for a second. By using 2 Cor. 4:18, you're attempting to say that the "new heaven and new earth" in Matt. 5 and Rev. 21 are spiritual, unseen things and not new, physical creations that can be seen. Even if that were the case, your argument would still come short: For you to believe that the Torah-Law has passed, then that means the "new heaven and earth" that the Messiah references in Matt. 5 has already come. But this doesn't agree with Rev. 21, which is stating that it comes at the end of days. Are you saying that the prophecy of Rev. 21 and all that chapter and the following chapter contains has already come to pass? This would also mean that the prophecies of Isaiah and Peter on the matter have come to pass, and would defy nearly every interpretation of these verses. Peter clearly refers to it as a not-yet-occurred event. He calls it the "day of the Lord" that will "come like a thief," and tells the believers to "look forward to that day."

Simply put, the Messiah is talking about a future not-yet-fulfilled event. And He is connecting that to when the Torah-Law will finally pass. "Seen" or "unseen," it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, but think about your logic here for a second. By using 2 Cor. 4:18, you're attempting to say that the "new heaven and new earth" in Matt. 5 and Rev. 21 are spiritual, unseen things and not new, physical creations that can be seen. Even if that were the case, your argument would still come short: For you to believe that the Torah-Law has passed, then that means the "new heaven and earth" that the Messiah references in Matt. 5 has already come. But this doesn't agree with Rev. 21, which is stating that it comes at the end of days. Are you saying that the prophecy of Rev. 21 and all that chapter and the following chapter contains has already come to pass? This would also mean that the prophecies of Isaiah and Peter on the matter have come to pass, and would defy nearly every interpretation of these verses. Peter clearly refers to it as a not-yet-occurred event. He calls it the "day of the Lord" that will "come like a thief," and tells the believers to "look forward to that day."

Simply put, the Messiah is talking about a future not-yet-fulfilled event. And He is connecting that to when the Torah-Law will finally pass. "Seen" or "unseen," it hasn't happened yet.

No im saying that because you cant see things with your natural eyes, that has nothing to do with biblical truth. Your not supposed to be judging the truth by your flesh and carnal mind, your supposed to judge the truth by the Word of God.
Now here is the word of God...

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Mitspa]

☝t<><

Calm your jets.

I was only pointing that out to confront the false teaching that the Old Testament Law passed away.

NO WAY do I believe our obedience adds anything to our Salvation. CHRIST DID IT ALL.

Our Obedience is how we manifest our LOVE for Christ.

By the way, the LAW remains for us TOO, not just the Gentiles. It is what makes us aware of sins in our lives that NEED TO BE CONFESSED AND REPENTED OF.

you mean like this?

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

 

[sparty-g]

Idou ..is behold ...gegoue ..has become...kaien...new...your not even on the point of the issue your trying to raise...I doubt I can give you a Greek lesson, but can suggest some good books to help you get started.

I believe I'm very much on point since you're use of the passage hinges on your preferred translation including "all things," which even your own translation doesn't include. You have provided "behold... has become... new." By omission of "all things," which is the key phrase you're trying to inject with your interpretation that "all things" must include the commands of the Torah-Law, your argument doesn't hold water. Without this phrase, "all things," these three Greek words must be referring to the man. Then, the verses state: the old man has passed, the man has become new.

My entire point here has been the verses are talking about the man. There is no reference to the Torah-Law in this passage or the surrounding verses. We can't just add anything we want to verses, especially when there is no mention of it.

 

[sparty-g]

Well its good practice and I enjoy the search in the scriptures...don't worry I don't get upset anymore and I always have a smile on my face and love in my heart, even for these that seem to reject the truth and are so bitter towards others who believe and love the truth

This is what I LOVE about you! (the smile and love in heart part, not the implicit condemning statement).

 

[Mitspa]

This is what I LOVE about you! (the smile and love in heart part, not the implicit condemning statement).

Well just as the Lord corrects those He loves, correction is not always pleasant for those who oppose the truth, but the love is there and the smile is always present

 

[Mitspa]

I believe I'm very much on point since you're use of the passage hinges on your preferred translation including "all things," which even your own translation doesn't include. You have provided "behold... has become... new." By omission of "all things," which is the key phrase you're trying to inject with your interpretation that "all things" must include the commands of the Torah-Law, your argument doesn't hold water. Without this phrase, "all things," these three Greek words must be referring to the man. Then, the verses state: the old man has passed, the man has become new.

My entire point here has been the verses are talking about the man. There is no reference to the Torah-Law in this passage or the surrounding verses. We can't just add anything we want to verses, especially when there is no mention of it.

It does include...in the TR..which the KJV is translated from.. but it dont matter because the other NU text have the word in the next scripture that would make it a proper translation either way. The word is clearly there!

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[sparty-g]

It does include...in the TR..which the KJV is translated from.. but it dont matter because the other NU text have the word in the next scripture that would make it a proper translation either way. The word is clearly there!

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

You are absolutely correct that the TR includes "ta panta" -- "the all." So we have an issue of disagreement in the source texts, which isn't uncommon. I still don't believe it changes the sense of the passage that the "all things" are concerning those things pertaining to the man. Here's an illustration of what I mean (and this isn't "adding to the text"; it's using the context to define the words in the text; it's not a different process than you saying "all things" includes the commands):

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things [pertaining to the man who is now a new creature in Christ] are passed away; behold, all things [again, pertaining to the man] are become new." (KJV)

I'll repeat, nowhere does this text reference the Torah-Law. Words are defined by their context. Immediate context is a safe go-to for understanding a text. Notions foreign to a text are suspect. The immediate context speaks of the flesh, sin, and trespasses being forgiven. This speaks of the nature of the man before and after knowing the Messiah. Others have posted in agreement with this contextual understanding. Please show me from the immediate context how the commands are implied. I don't think it can be done.

Thus, we return to Matt. 5. You believe 2 Cor. 5:17 supports the idea that the commands of the Torah-Law have passed. But you still haven't dealt with Matt. 5 and heaven and earth needing to pass before the commands of the Torah-Law can pass. 2 Cor. 5:17 is insufficient evidence since it neither mentions heaven and earth, nor the commands of the Torah-Law. Anyone can cite verses to support their understanding of another passage, but it's not proper to use those passages if they're not talking about the same things. I'll repeat, Paul is not on the topic of heaven and earth, or the commands.

So let's get back to Matt. 5 with a question for you: Concerning our present age, was the Messiah referring to a not-yet-occurred event when He said that heaven and earth must first pass before the Torah-Law can pass? Or has this already happened?

 

[Mitspa]

You are absolutely correct that the TR includes "ta panta" -- "the all." So we have an issue of disagreement in the source texts, which isn't uncommon. I still don't believe it changes the sense of the passage that the "all things" are concerning those things pertaining to the man. Here's an illustration of what I mean (and this isn't "adding to the text"; it's using the context to define the words in the text; it's not a different process than you saying "all things" includes the commands):

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things [pertaining to the man who is now a new creature in Christ] are passed away; behold, all things [again, pertaining to the man] are become new." (KJV)

I'll repeat, nowhere does this text reference the Torah-Law. Words are defined by their context. Immediate context is a safe go-to for understanding a text. Notions foreign to a text are suspect. The immediate context speaks of the flesh, sin, and trespasses being forgiven. This speaks of the nature of the man before and after knowing the Messiah. Others have posted in agreement with this contextual understanding. Please show me from the immediate context how the commands are implied. I don't think it can be done.

Thus, we return to Matt. 5. You believe 2 Cor. 5:17 supports the idea that the commands of the Torah-Law have passed. But you still haven't dealt with Matt. 5 and heaven and earth needing to pass before the commands of the Torah-Law can pass. 2 Cor. 5:17 is insufficient evidence since it neither mentions heaven and earth, nor the commands of the Torah-Law. Anyone can cite verses to support their understanding of another passage, but it's not proper to use those passages if they're not talking about the same things. I'll repeat, Paul is not on the topic of heaven and earth, or the commands.

So let's get back to Matt. 5 with a question for you: Concerning our present age, was the Messiah referring to a not-yet-occurred event when He said that heaven and earth must first pass before the Torah-Law can pass? Or has this already happened?

Maybe you missed my point the word is clearly there in both text and its clearly a correct reading in context by either text...so you have no issue as it relates to that word. And you may not be willing to accept what the scripture says because you cannot see it with your physical eyes, but I have already proven that has no relation to biblical truth. And the point need not stand on this scripture alone, the whole of the New Testament proves my point.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[sparty-g]

Maybe you missed my point the word is clearly there in both text and its clearly a correct reading in context by either text...so you have no issue as it relates to that word. And you may not be willing to accept what the scripture says because you cannot see it with your physical eyes, but I have already proven that has no relation to biblical truth. And the point need not stand on this scripture alone, the whole of the New Testament proves my point.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I said I concede to your point about the Greek texts, just not your understanding of what the words imply contextually. You say the whole of the NT proves your point -- but my contention (and the contention of others) is that it doesn't! This is the point of the discussion we are having: there are clearly other verses seem to not support your view. And you haven't properly dealt with them for what they say. People have demonstrated ways of handling the texts and interpretations you bring by looking at those immediate texts for what they say. You haven't been fair and done the same, but instead just typically refer to other verses. I have brought myriads of verses from the NT and almost none of them have been handled directly. Many times the verses are completely not even mentioned but instead a quote from Paul is used as a defense. But almost every time you've brought a passage to me, I've grappled with it and offered a different interpretation to that specific passage (I apologize for those I may have missed). Please return the favor.

Again I ask concerning Matt. 5: Has the event the Messiah references (heaven and earth passing) occurred yet or not? This is the same event that Isaiah, Peter, and Revelation mention. It's a straightforward question -- has it occurred yet or not?

And after this, I've brought several verses from Acts and elsewhere that will need a response. I'm really trying hard to learn your perspective and how you handle certain "inconsistencies." By that, I just mean verses that seem to not straightforwardly agree with your perspective. Thank you!

 

[Mitspa]

I said I concede to your point about the Greek texts, just not your understanding of what the words imply contextually. You say the whole of the NT proves your point -- but it doesn't! This is the point of the discussion we are having: there are clearly other verses that do not support your view. And you haven't properly dealt with them for what they say. People have demonstrated ways of handling the texts and interpretations you bring by looking at those immediate texts for what they say. You haven't been fair and done the same, but instead just typically refer to other verses. I have brought myriads of verses from the NT and almost none of them have been handled directly. Many times the verses are completely not even mentioned but instead a quote from Paul is used as a defense. But every time you've brought a passage, I've grappled with it and offered a different interpretation to that specific passage. Please return the favor.

Again I ask concerning Matt. 5: Has the event the Messiah references (heaven and earth passing) occurred yet or not? This is the same event that Isaiah, Peter, and Revelation mention. It's a straightforward question -- has it occurred yet or not?

And after this, I've brought several verses from Acts and elsewhere that will need a response. I'm really trying hard to learn your perspective and how you handle certain "inconsistencies." By that, I just mean verses that seem to not straightforwardly agree with your perspective. Thank you!

I have already showed you in the clear reading of the text that for the believer in Christ this is a biblical (spiritual) fact!

Do you have anything else?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.