The Law as a School MASTER

[gotime]

Some people think they have to remove sin from their life. How is that even possible?

For man this is impossible but for God all things are possible.

Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Here Jesus cleanses the temple from defilement.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Remember it is Jesus who cleanses the temple not you. But you have to let Him in and believe He is able to do what He has promised and submit to Him.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[KohenMatt]

amein. but many are and remain blind because of a reason unknown - whether it is their choice or God's, He hardens their heart
and they continue to not breath, not walk, not see the light, not do anything Jesus tells them to do - they don't walk with nor follow nor listen to the GOOD SHEPHERD,

and they don't even know it......


obviously, every person might be at this same point at some time in their life, or for a long long time,
until God shows them mercy and softens their heart and lets them start listening to Him....

and others don't ever listen but keep promoting another gospel, a false gospel, a non-saving gospel

for whatever reason, and they potentially won't ever turn to God in Jesus to be made whole, healed or saved.

Just remember Jeff, we ALL have spiritual blindness to one degree or another all the time. The things we might say others are blind to (Feast days, etc.) are the same things you and I were once blind to as well. Our walk with God is about progressive revelation, or constant maturing in our faith.

We shouldn't criticize those who believe different than we do because they may not be there yet, or haven't had God teach them yet. That's OK, because I'm sure there will be things next year that I don't know now. That won't make me any less sincere or passionate about God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Faith without works is dead, so how long our you going to reject the words in the bible from James that says this.
And how about how the Lord Jesus Himself says that not all that call Him Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, and shows in Matthew 25 the two groups that both believe in Him yet only one group shows the fruits (works) of the Spirit by helping others and the other does not.
The group with the fruits (works) present were given eternal life, and the other group were sent to eternal punishment (lake of fire) because by denying others help they denied the Lord. And then in Matthew 7:21-23 He says to those who believed in Him and even did works in His name that they were not given eternal life either because they also continued in a unrepented deliberate sinful lifestyle.

you seem to not understand what faith without work is dead means.

 

[dcontroversal]

My answer in blue, blessings.

My response to your statements...

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US<----John, A saved child of God who writes 5 N.T. Books

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of GOD<----The same JOHN who wrote chapter one as well.....

So...either John is confused and not inspired because he writes and states that if we say we have NO sin we are deceived and then turns around and writes that we do not sin...so which is it?

How about the conflict that Paul writes of...the body is DEAD because of SIN and the SPIRIT is ALIVE and these two CONSTANTLY war one against the other...

It is rather simple....THE spirit that is born of GOD does not sin, the body of fallen flesh that is STILL here until death and or changed SINS....

Galatians 2:16 A man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of or in Christ JESUS
EVEN when we have believed we have been justified by the faith IN or of JESUS<---both in past tense

Galatians 2:17 While seeking to be justified by CHRIST, we OURSELVES are also found SINNERS is Christ the minister of SIN? GOD FORBID

Not I that lives, but Christ lives in me and the life I live I live by the FAITH OF/FROM/IN CHRIST

ROMANS----> PRESENT TENSE --->PAUL said SO then with the mind I serve the law of GOD, but with the BODY the LAW OF SIN

Being justified FREELY by his GRACE through the buyback (redemption) that is in CHRIST...

Where sin did abound, God's grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND..

No matter how you slice and dice like Kenneth the bible is full of men who were and are the saved children of GOD and they ALL CONFESSED present SIN without loosing their salvation and or being found lost.......there is AMPLE proof of the conflict that takes place between the saved, born again spirit that is eternally saved, sealed and justified and the fallen flesh which is prone to sin...the battle ground is the mind and sometimes the flesh wins and sometimes the (more often than not) the Spirit wins.....

You are essentially equating being sinless to a saved Child of God after salvation and that totally contradicts the bible....there is NOT one just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT.......ALL of our righteousnesses areas filthy rags and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.........

The ONLY man to never SIN was JESUS and he became SIN for us that we can have the righteousness of GOD imputed unto us by faith......

To say you are above sin or that you don't sin is a lie......period!
To say that you walk according to the law of God 100% of the time and all the time is LIE...period!

The word contradicts this view....John the Apostle contradicts this view, Jesus contradicts this view...THERE IS NONE GOOD but GOD...Paul contradicts this view.....period!

 

[kennethcadwell]

you seem to not understand what faith without work is dead means.

I understand it just fine which is why I defend the works that are done in and through a believer by the Holy Spirit, as the bible makes it clear by the words of Paul, Peter, James, and John that if those fruits of the Spirit are not evident in a believers life then they are not born again in the Spirit.
For if you are born again in the Spirit, He will help and guide you away from unrighteousness and uncleanness and lead you in righteousness and good works. The bible more then once says a born again believer will be zealous to defend and urge others to do good works and be fruitful.

You can not be grafted in and abide in Christ and not produce good fruit/works, as that would mean that Christ who does the work does not abide in you if there is no change in one's life. People constantly say there is no can not do, or have to do any more under the new covenant of grace we are in. But Paul constantly in all of his epistles says over and over again you can not live in the flesh and get eternal live, and shows the fruit of Spirit that would be in your life if you are born again. Paul even says that forgiving others is a must in a believers walk, which goes hand and hand with what the Lord said about forgiving others or you will not be forgiven.

James like I said before makes it very clear as he compares faith without works just like are body if it has no soul. Your body could not live without the soul, just as your faith does not lead to eternal life without the fruits/works of the Spirit.

 

[dcontroversal]

Why are constantly trying to twist what I said to say something I didn't.
I know Jesus did not say they didn't do those works, because they did do those works, but they also lived a sinful lifestyle as well. They wanted to and did serve both spirit and flesh, and the Lord says you can not do that as that makes you luke warm and He will spit you out for living that way.

Boasting about works does not mean supporting them and defending them against those who are against works, because of how the Lord said believers in Him will perform those works.

What I said goes hand and hand with scripture, as the Lord Himself said you can serve Him and the flesh (sins). You either obey Him in the faith which leads to eternal life, or you obey your lusts and that will lead to death or eternal punishment. Faith working hand and hand with works is not a false gospel unless you want to take and throw out half of the NT scriptures including all of James that you keep only wanting to state only matters to men.
James makes a clear point that you reject by his comparison of faith + works to the body + soul. He says the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is also. Meaning that your faith without the works is not a true faith abiding in Christ, and if your faith does not abide in Christ by obeying all of His teachings then there is no salvation.

You want to claim or teach others a mere gospel that does not save, as you tell others their actions/deeds/works does not matter. Listening to you one would think they can continue to live how they previously lived and still end up with salvation, and that would be a false teaching that will lead many to stand before the Lord saying just like the goats when did we not clothe you, feed you, or visit you. And He will tell them because you denied to do for them you have denied me, go away to eternal punishment.

Again you are misguided and blind to what I said and or believe because you cannot get past your ex-catholic works for salvation.....how is it that you are so blind to what is actually being said.......?

I have never once said and or implied that one should not produce fruit or do the works...NO WHERE have I said that, but what I have said is.....

OUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE US, KEEP US SAVED and or FACILLITATE SALVATION as that is a once FOR ALL ACT BASED ENTIRELY upon FAITH...this is what YOU ARE BLIND to because you believe YOUR WORKS save YOU and or KEEP YOU SAVED....the bible does NOT TEACH THIS....

HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HATH (IS HAVING< PRESENT TENSE) ETERNAL LIFE...what part of that can you not UNDERSTAND.....

IT IS FAITH in JESUS that GIVES ETERNAL LIFE......NOT WORKS, NOT CHURCH MEMBERSHIP, NOT BAPTISM which is a PICTURE and public testimony of what has taken place in SALVATION and sets forth a belief into the RESURRECTION of JESUS......

It is SIMPLE

BE not removed from the SIMPLICITY that is found IN CHRIST JESUS

AGAIN...IT pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE


Open you eyes KENNETH!

 

[gotime]

My response to your statements...

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US<----John, A saved child of God who writes 5 N.T. Books

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of GOD<----The same JOHN who wrote chapter one as well.....

So...either John is confused and not inspired because he writes and states that if we say we have NO sin we are deceived and then turns around and writes that we do not sin...so which is it?

How about the conflict that Paul writes of...the body is DEAD because of SIN and the SPIRIT is ALIVE and these two CONSTANTLY war one against the other...

It is rather simple....THE spirit that is born of GOD does not sin, the body of fallen flesh that is STILL here until death and or changed SINS....

Galatians 2:16 A man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of or in Christ JESUS
EVEN when we have believed we have been justified by the faith IN or of JESUS<---both in past tense

Galatians 2:17 While seeking to be justified by CHRIST, we OURSELVES are also found SINNERS is Christ the minister of SIN? GOD FORBID

Not I that lives, but Christ lives in me and the life I live I live by the FAITH OF/FROM/IN CHRIST

ROMANS----> PRESENT TENSE --->PAUL said SO then with the mind I serve the law of GOD, but with the BODY the LAW OF SIN

Being justified FREELY by his GRACE through the buyback (redemption) that is in CHRIST...

Where sin did abound, God's grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND..

No matter how you slice and dice like Kenneth the bible is full of men who were and are the saved children of GOD and they ALL CONFESSED present SIN without loosing their salvation and or being found lost.......there is AMPLE proof of the conflict that takes place between the saved, born again spirit that is eternally saved, sealed and justified and the fallen flesh which is prone to sin...the battle ground is the mind and sometimes the flesh wins and sometimes the (more often than not) the Spirit wins.....

You are essentially equating being sinless to a saved Child of God after salvation and that totally contradicts the bible....there is NOT one just man upon the earth that does good and sins NOT.......ALL of our righteousnesses areas filthy rags and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away.........

The ONLY man to never SIN was JESUS and he became SIN for us that we can have the righteousness of GOD imputed unto us by faith......

To say you are above sin or that you don't sin is a lie......period!
To say that you walk according to the law of God 100% of the time and all the time is LIE...period!

The word contradicts this view....John the Apostle contradicts this view, Jesus contradicts this view...THERE IS NONE GOOD but GOD...Paul contradicts this view.....period!

We will have to agree to disagree, you have yet to address the scriptures and my post. so I fail to see any fruit from me continuing this.

Blessings.

 

[dcontroversal]

I understand it just fine which is why I defend the works that are done in and through a believer by the Holy Spirit, as the bible makes it clear by the words of Paul, Peter, James, and John that if those fruits of the Spirit are not evident in a believers life then they are not born again in the Spirit.
For if you are born again in the Spirit, He will help and guide you away from unrighteousness and uncleanness and lead you in righteousness and good works. The bible more then once says a born again believer will be zealous to defend and urge others to do good works and be fruitful.

You can not be grafted in and abide in Christ and not produce good fruit/works, as that would mean that Christ who does the work does not abide in you if there is no change in one's life. People constantly say there is no can not do, or have to do any more under the new covenant of grace we are in. But Paul constantly in all of his epistles says over and over again you can not live in the flesh and get eternal live, and shows the fruit of Spirit that would be in your life if you are born again. Paul even says that forgiving others is a must in a believers walk, which goes hand and hand with what the Lord said about forgiving others or you will not be forgiven.

James like I said before makes it very clear as he compares faith without works just like are body if it has no soul. Your body could not live without the soul, just as your faith does not lead to eternal life without the fruits/works of the Spirit.

Actually he is correct and you don't really understand it........what you miss is the (show me your faith) as James is speaking of a man's invisible inward faith being seen by MEN and how it can be seen by men.....

You also reject Paul's view and inspired word which states WE conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS of the LAW=works.......

Before GOD a man is justified by FAITH
BEFORE men a man's faith is seen by his works

That is why you fail to understand what JAMES is actually saying and wrongly attributing works in addition to faith for salvation.....Gospel of a different kind with no power to save is what you have trusted into and propagate!<---GALATIANS

 

[gotime]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[gotime]

We will have to agree to disagree, you have yet to address the scriptures and my post. so I fail to see any fruit from me continuing this.

Blessings.

Although to be fair you have partially addressed it.

 

[dcontroversal]

We will have to agree to disagree, you have yet to address the scriptures and my post. so I fail to see any fruit from me continuing this.

Blessings.

No problem there migo.....You trust your works and that you don't ever sin, me, I will trust the faith of Christ while admitting I am a sinner that needs the great physician.....

Thank God that believers are justified by the faith of Christ as his faith is perfect, complete and never falters or fails......and that the righteousness of the law has been imputed by faith unto all who genuinely believe!

 

[gotime]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
free from what?

is the Romans 7 person free from the law of sin?

There is your answer.

 

[gotime]

No problem there migo.....You trust your works and that you don't ever sin, me, I will trust the faith of Christ while admitting I am a sinner that needs the great physician.....

Thank God that believers are justified by the faith of Christ as his faith is perfect, complete and never falters or fails......and that the righteousness of the law has been imputed by faith unto all who genuinely believe!

you step beyond your bounds friend.

I do not trust in works at all and you bear false witness to suggest so.

I trust in Christ and Christ alone. and He does the works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again you are misguided and blind to what I said and or believe because you cannot get past your ex-catholic works for salvation.....how is it that you are so blind to what is actually being said.......?

I have never once said and or implied that one should not produce fruit or do the works...NO WHERE have I said that, but what I have said is.....

OUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE US, KEEP US SAVED and or FACILLITATE SALVATION as that is a once FOR ALL ACT BASED ENTIRELY upon FAITH...this is what YOU ARE BLIND to because you believe YOUR WORKS save YOU and or KEEP YOU SAVED....the bible does NOT TEACH THIS....

HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HATH (IS HAVING< PRESENT TENSE) ETERNAL LIFE...what part of that can you not UNDERSTAND.....

IT IS FAITH in JESUS that GIVES ETERNAL LIFE......NOT WORKS, NOT CHURCH MEMBERSHIP, NOT BAPTISM which is a PICTURE and public testimony of what has taken place in SALVATION and sets forth a belief into the RESURRECTION of JESUS......

It is SIMPLE

BE not removed from the SIMPLICITY that is found IN CHRIST JESUS

AGAIN...IT pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE


Open you eyes KENNETH!

First get away from the Catholic thing because they did not teach me this.

This came through knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit when going to the Lord in prayer for answers in his word.
I will repeat this once more for you since it does not seem to sink in yet, that the Catholic church I was in taught very little to none scripture teaching. They only taught their false history mainly.
You have stated that works are not needed for salvation, but that is contrary to scripture as it shows clearly in scripture that faith without works is a dead faith that does not lead to salvation. This is because the Lord abiding in a person will produce said works of the Spirit, without those works it shows that He does not abide in you. So you see that works do go hand and hand with faith.

Works do not save as I never said that either, as what I said is that works is a product of a true faith.
So no works of Spirit then no Christ abiding in them, hince no salvation.

The believing is not a past tense word, it is a continuation word that leads unto salvation through Christ.
You constantly want to make salvation a physical possession of yours right here and now, which the bible makes absolutely no such mention. It states that we have mental assurance of receiving it right now, and if you would do as a few others do and get past the shorten version definition and use the full definition you will get the full context.

pisteuó​

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something:

 

[dcontroversal]

you step beyond your bounds friend.

I do not trust in works at all and you bear false witness to suggest so.

I trust in Christ and Christ alone. and He does the works.

OK Gottime...I guess I misunderstood you....I apologize for that....now down to point two....

Are you saying that you don't sin? Is that what you are IMPLYING?

 

[dcontroversal]

First get away from the Catholic thing because they did not teach me this.

This came through knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit when going to the Lord in prayer for answers in his word.
I will repeat this once more for you since it does not seem to sink in yet, that the Catholic church I was in taught very little to none scripture teaching. They only taught their false history mainly.
You have stated that works are not needed for salvation, but that is contrary to scripture as it shows clearly in scripture that faith without works is a dead faith that does not lead to salvation. This is because the Lord abiding in a person will produce said works of the Spirit, without those works it shows that He does not abide in you. So you see that works do go hand and hand with faith.

Works do not save as I never said that either, as what I said is that works is a product of a true faith.
So no works of Spirit then no Christ abiding in them, hince no salvation.

The believing is not a past tense word, it is a continuation word that leads unto salvation through Christ.
You constantly want to make salvation a physical possession of yours right here and now, which the bible makes absolutely no such mention. It states that we have mental assurance of receiving it right now, and if you would do as a few others do and get past the shorten version definition and use the full definition you will get the full context.

pisteuó​

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something:

I suggest you actually study a little more Kenneth as an aorist tense verb and the verb tense in John 3:16 points to a present continuing result from a past completed action...we do not work to gain salvation.....we are saved and work because we are saved....you view is heretical Kenneth.......period......

He that believeth on the SON HATH EVERLASTING LIFE...period......keep trusting your works KENNETH and it will not be good for you.....

I believe JESUS when he said the above bolded....

 

[dcontroversal]

you step beyond your bounds friend.

I do not trust in works at all and you bear false witness to suggest so.

I trust in Christ and Christ alone. and He does the works.

I'm not the only one who gets a works based salvation from what you say....note the following.....

Originally Posted by gotime But the true equation is: Spirit = works of the law.
The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. This cannot be.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:6

Originally Posted by gotime
For is is written:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.




You incorrectly see "works" as being works of the law.

But Jesus said in John 6:29 that our works are to believe on Jesus.
This is consistent with Christ's commandment, John 3:16.
It's consistent with God's will, John 6:40.

And how is the works of believing on Jesus seen?
James 2:14-17
If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Consider that scripture is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14), and thus read it from a spiritual perspective.

Who are the hungry?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

And who are the naked?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


Our works are to believe on Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 6:29.
And if we believe on Jesus, having such a great light within us, then we would naturally declare the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked) professing Jesus before man, so that they also may have Christ the spiritual food and also be clothed with the robe of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see YOUR GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

These are the works that shows our faith which James 2:14-17 speaks of.

But, the law is not of faith (Gal 3:12), and it's works of the law that you see as showing one's faith.
What I see from the doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. God says we cannot do this, Rom 11:6.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Actually he is correct and you don't really understand it........what you miss is the (show me your faith) as James is speaking of a man's invisible inward faith being seen by MEN and how it can be seen by men.....

You also reject Paul's view and inspired word which states WE conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS of the LAW=works.......

Before GOD a man is justified by FAITH
BEFORE men a man's faith is seen by his works

That is why you fail to understand what JAMES is actually saying and wrongly attributing works in addition to faith for salvation.....Gospel of a different kind with no power to save is what you have trusted into and propagate!<---GALATIANS

There you go back to the deeds of the law, as I am not saying anything about the deeds of the law.

I am speaking of the works produced from the fruits of the Spirit that will be in all true born again believers. You keep wanting to twist all works back to the works of the law that does not save, justify, or matter one single bit.
Yet the works produced out of love by the fruits of the Spirit that do go hand and hand with faith do matter, as Paul, John, James, and even Peter all 4 show that if these fruits of the Spirit are not a product of your faith then it is a dead faith that does not lead to salvation. Because without those works of the Spirit that means that Christ does not abide in you.

If Christ does not abide in you then you have no salvation coming to you, and 1 John really breaks it down for us as he shows to start that if you say you love the Lord but hate your brother (and this does not mean real brother, or brother in faith) then the truth / Christ is not in you. We are told specifically from Jesus we are to love Him, others, and even our enemies.
We are told by Jesus and Paul to forgive others or we will not be forgiven = no salvation

We are told by Jesus if we deny Him before others or He will deny = no salvation
(Paul says by confession we are saved.)

We are told by Jesus to repent of our sins and produce fruit worthy of repentance > No repentance, no fruit = no salvation
(Paul says that Godly sorrow would be evident in a believer to lead them to repentance.)

We are told by Paul that if we walk in the flesh = no salvation


So once again I do not reject Paul's words of being justified by faith without the deeds of the law, as I am not speaking of deeds of the law. I am speaking of and defending the works produced through the fruits of the Spirit that go hand and hand with salvation.

 

[gotime]

OK Gottime...I guess I misunderstood you....I apologize for that....now down to point two....

Are you saying that you don't sin? Is that what you are IMPLYING?

That's ok Dcontoversal no harm done.

As to your question,

In Christ I have found a power to not give into temptation:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.

In Christ I have found a change in my very thoughts:

2Co 10:4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
2Co 10:5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;

I have found transformation in Him and it all happened when I stopped trying to be good enough and accepted that the only way to be good is to let He who is Good live in you:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: ...

I find that when I look to Him and trust his command the Impossible becomes real:

Mat 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.




I am saying that what is impossible for man is possible with God and I know it to be true by faith in His word and by the testimony He has given me.

Everything changes, my love for sin became love for God and hatred for sin.

My love for others grew stronger and still is.

I believe and have experienced such power in Christ, see its impossible to say I don't sin. I am dead I don't sin or do good. I do nothing. Christ lives in me and he does the works.

Me I am a sinner saved by Grace, So how is it that a sinner does not sin?

Because the sinner is dead and Christ lives in us. I know without Christ my old man comes alive and I sin. For that is all my flesh is good for. But I no longer give into the flesh but through faith in Christ the flesh is dead and by His Spirit the life I live I live by faith in the son of God who gave Himself for me.

something happens to a man/woman when they by faith accept that in Christ the old nature dies and in Him the Spirit gives life. I can not explain how God does it, but I can testify He does it just as He promised.

There is a rest I can not explain in Christ. His burden is light truly. and the works of the flesh are no more. but it is a daily surrender.

People have a false conception of victory over sin, they think if you can have complete victory then Christ is not needed anymore. this is not true.

The only way to have complete victory is to learn to surrender every moment for the rest of your life. Self only stays dead while at the cross and life only comes through Jesus.

Do I sin? I can say this, I am not aware of any sin I am committing and my conscience is clear before God in Christ. though this does not justify me it is Christ who justifies.

 

[gotime]

I'm not the only one who gets a works based salvation from what you say....note the following.....

Originally Posted by gotime But the true equation is: Spirit = works of the law.
The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. This cannot be.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:6

Originally Posted by gotime
For is is written:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.




You incorrectly see "works" as being works of the law.

But Jesus said in John 6:29 that our works are to believe on Jesus.
This is consistent with Christ's commandment, John 3:16.
It's consistent with God's will, John 6:40.

And how is the works of believing on Jesus seen?
James 2:14-17
If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Consider that scripture is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14), and thus read it from a spiritual perspective.

Who are the hungry?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

And who are the naked?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


Our works are to believe on Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 6:29.
And if we believe on Jesus, having such a great light within us, then we would naturally declare the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked) professing Jesus before man, so that they also may have Christ the spiritual food and also be clothed with the robe of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see YOUR GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

These are the works that shows our faith which James 2:14-17 speaks of.

But, the law is not of faith (Gal 3:12), and it's works of the law that you see as showing one's faith.
What I see from the doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. God says we cannot do this, Rom 11:6.

I know many think what you have assumed.

See people have this idea that anything that says or suggests obedience to the law is self works. but it is not.

I believe that In Christ my nature is dead by faith in His death.

and by that same faith I believe that Christ through the Spirit lives in me and the works are His through me not mine.

Jesus works are complete obedience in love. thus the law is fulfilled/kept by faith. not by works lest any one should boast.

I look to Jesus trust His word and He preforms it in me.