Rapture= false teaching

charisenexcelcis · Dec 24, 2009

Maybe that's a subject for a different thread. I believe there's many reasons its authentic.

3. GENESIS FINDS ITS COMPLEMENT IN THE APOCALYPSE.

1. Genesis, the book of the beginning.
1. Apocalypse, the book of the end.

2. The Earth created (1:1).
2. The Earth passed away (21:1).g

3. Satan's first rebellion._
3. Satan's final rebellion (20:3, 7-10).

4. Sun, moon, and stars for Earth's government (1:14-16).
4. Sun, moon, and stars, connected with Earth's judgment (6:13; 8:12; 16:8)

. 5. Sun to govern the day (1:16).
5. No need of the sun (21:23).

6. Darkness called night (1:5).
6. "No night there" (22:5).

7. Waters called seas (1:10)
. 7. "No more sea" (21:1).

8. A river for Earth's blessing (2:10-14).g
8. A river for the New Earth (22:1, 2).

9. Man in God's image (1:26).
9. Man headed by one in Satan's image (13).

10. Entrance of sin (3).
10. Development and end of sin (21, 22).

11. Curse pronounced (3:14, 17).
11. "No more curse" (22:3).

12. Death entered (3:19).
12. "No more death" (21:4).

13. Cherubim, first mentioned in connection with man (3:24).
13. Cherubim, finally mentioned in connection with man (4:6).

14. Man driven out from Eden (3:24).
14. Man restored (22).

15. Tree of life guarded (3:24).
15. "Right to the Tree of Life" (22:14).

16. Sorrow and suffering enter (3:17).
16. No more sorrow (21:4).

17. Man's religion, art, and science, resorted to for enjoyment, apart from God (4).
17. Man's religion, luxury, art, and science, in their full glory, judged and destroyed by God (18).

18. Nimrod, a great rebel and king, and hidden anti-God, the founder of Babylon (10:8, 9).
18. The Beast, the great rebel, a king and manifested anti-God, the reviver of Babylon (13-18).

19. A flood from God to destroy an evil generation (6-9).
19. A flood from Satan to destroy an elect generation (12).

20. The Bow, the token of God's covenant with the Earth (9:13).
20. The Bow, betokening God's remembrance of His covenant with the Earth (4:3; 10:1).

Maybe you should read this:
From Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. Link: Wikipedia
“It is definitely one of the most controversial, and hardest to understand, books of the Bible, with many ranging interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. The identity of the author John is not completely clear. A traditional view is that the author of this book was John the Apostle, but other scholars doubt that. The traditional Christian view is that this John was the same as the author of the Gospel of John and 1, 2, and 3 John. In the fourth century, St. John Chrysostom and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also rejected it for a time because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it.
In the 9th century it was included, with the “Apocalypse of Peter” among "disputed" books in the “Stichometry of Nicephorus”, patriarch of Constantinople. In the end, it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Linguistically it matches the gospel and the epistles--close in both vocabulary and grammar. I think that it isn't as controversial as Wikepaedia states. I do believe that many are out of balance in there arguments regarding Revelation. We forget that first and foremost it is a Revelation of Jesus--both objectively about Him and subjectively from Him. I believe that we must first seek to learn more about Jesus from the book of Revelation. Then we will remain balanced in approaching the more mysterious parts of this. I particularly think that we should listen to the letters to the seven churches.

miktre · Dec 24, 2009

charisenexcelcis said:

Double and triple checked the scriptures, there's nothing to make one think other wise. Nothing in Revelation contradicts this. Jesus just told them "Where" the ones that were left were at, so it doesn't make sense that they would ask where they were. I wanted to triple check other scriptures to see if they would contradict that interpretation and none that I can find do. I stand by the simplicity of the teaching and my post.

charisenexcelcis · Dec 24, 2009

miktre said:

And I by mine. We will have to live with the disappointment. lol. It has been a nice discussion though.

miktre · Dec 24, 2009

charisenexcelcis said:

You never provided scripture, any thing, or any reason why you believed what you believed, that parts a bit disappointing. It has been very nice all n all and it's just beginning for me I will continue to post much more scripture in this thread in the search for truth. Well, good luck friend. Thanks for stopping by.

charisenexcelcis · Dec 24, 2009

miktre said:

We discussed the scripture that you were exegeting. I did not enter into the conversation to convert you to my viewpoint. I believe that you hold to the most precious doctrine of scripture and that you are honestly seeking, so I see no reason to try to "correct" those small matter in which we disagree. I may just as well be wrong in my view. Keep seeking the truth and studying and I will keep engaging with you in this endevour.

oopsies · Dec 24, 2009

charisenexcelcis said:

sword said:

Absolutely. These letters are often overlooked - there is so much one can learn from just those 7 letters.

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

The destruction of the temple, which is what Jesus is talking about, is not a future thing it happened back then.

Actually it can be split into two things, prophecying for the short term to those who are listening and then a more general prophecy for us today. We need to divide God's Word rightly and sort out which parts are for them living in Jerusalem, and which are for us, living in America, or Australia, 1900+ years later.

It is clear that Jesus is speaking to the then Jews, as he refers to the Sabbath which the Jews kept and it was forbidden to travel long distances on the sabbath:

Mat 24:20 But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;

Jesus predicts the coming invasion of the Roman armies right here:

Luk 21:20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.

Now what happened historically?

In the first Jew-Roman war, Cestius Gallus besieged Jerusalem suddenly, then withdrew his army very much unexpectedly, which provided the Christians an opportunity to escape, which they did, and many, remembering the words of Christ, fled to mount Libanus and so were saved. Such that there was not a Christian left in the city, and so were spared. In answer to their prayers (as Jesus told them to pray it would not occur in the winter), it occured in the summer time.
The many caves in the mountains of Palestine provided a safe refuge for those who fled.

The theologian Barnes says of this:
The coming of the Son of man - It has been doubted whether this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, or to the coming at the day of judgment. For the solution of this doubt let it be remarked:
1. that those two events are the principal scenes in which our Lord said he would come, either in person or in judgment.
2. that the destruction of Jerusalem is described as his coming, his act.
3. that these events - the judgment of Jerusalem and the final judgment in many respects greatly resemble each other.
4. that they "will bear," therefore, to be described in the same language; and,
5. therefore, that the same words often include both events, as properly described by them.
The words had, doubtless, a primary reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, but they had, at the same time, such an amplitude of meaning as also to express his coming to judgment. See the introduction to Isaiah, section 7, (3).

The Christ lumps the end of the world with the destruction of the temple:
2And Jesus said unto them,See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The western wall of the temple still stands today, thus this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

greatkraw · Dec 25, 2009

The western wall of the temple still stands today, thus this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

Miktre, it is embarrassingly obvious you have not done your homework.

If that picture is you and if you have actually been there, Then you must be being wilfully ignorant.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD and not one stone was left upon another just as Jesus prophesied

That is not the western wall of the temple.

Lad · Dec 25, 2009

oooo harsh kraw, harsh tho i believe (i assume along with u) that the abomination of desolation took place then

greatkraw · Dec 25, 2009

Lad said:

no; there was one abomination of desolation during the time of the Maccabees, before Christ, and another one still future

The wall in the picture is simply the western retaining wall on the side of the temple mount,

the temple itself stood on top of the mount on top of the western wall just as the 2 mosques stand there now

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

greatkraw said:

Wrong again greatkraw

You probably think the end of the world happened too, LoL

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

You see greatkraw, its you that embarrass yourself by not doing your homework. At this point it's almost fun proving you wrong. Anyway, have a blessed day.

Strongs
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

charisenexcelcis · Dec 25, 2009

miktre said:

What verse are you refering to here? Interestingly enough, in Revelation the word "hieron" is never used, only naos.

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

charisenexcelcis said:

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them,See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Notice in the rest of Matt 24 Jesus proceeds to answer the three questions as one. Christ will do the job of total destruction.

Strongs
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

That's interesting of Revelation, perhaps it has to do with the third temple that is being built.

charisenexcelcis · Dec 25, 2009

miktre said:

I thought so. The key in this case may be the word "buildings" (oikodomos) rather than the temple. I think that the wall may be considered foundational rather than structural. I think that you can see this in the common metaphoric use of the word (edifying, from ediface). I'm not sure I would consider that wall an ediface. In any case, I am still convinced that the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century is the fulfillment of that prophecy and the beginning of our eager waiting for the parousia.

sword · Dec 25, 2009

Martin Luther, the father of The Reformation, said:

Preface to the Revelation of St. John by Martin Luther (1522) 7

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; 8 I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them,See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Strongs
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

It just doesn't add up to me. Notice in the rest of Matt 24 Jesus proceeds to answer the three questions of verse 3 as one.

Compare Luke 21
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
They ask Him this time about the destruction of the temple and Christ goes to speak of the end of the world, thus it shall be at the end of the world when the temple is completely destroyed.

Also compare John 2
15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Does anyone believe that they had sheep and oxen inside the central sanctuary itself?
Don't think when He drove them out He drove them out of the gates of the walls?

It seems odd, charisenexcelcis that you would want to include all the structures of the sanctuary yet exclude the wall structure, the most important part for protecting the temple. How could one be so selective? You consider it foundational, yet the foundation is the most important part of any structure.

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

sword said:

Martin Luther, the father of The Reformation, said:

Preface to the Revelation of St. John by Martin Luther (1522) 7

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; 8 I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

Like I suggested earlier, you should start a new thread for this topic. That way the topic can stay focused. Then I would be glad to discuss this with you.

charisenexcelcis · Dec 25, 2009

sword said:

Both Daniel and Zechariah have extensive visions and in fact much of the imagery is shared with Revelation. also, there is significant teaching material in the early part of Revelation. If you are diligent, you will find much through out it. Finally, we weren't discussing Revelation, but Matthew. Finally, Paul himself spoke of being caught up into the highest heavens and Peter had at least one significant vision in Acts.

miktre · Dec 25, 2009

2And Jesus said unto them,See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Rapture= false teaching

charisenexcelcis

Guest

miktre

Guest

charisenexcelcis

Guest

miktre

Guest

charisenexcelcis

Guest

oopsies

Guest

miktre

Guest

greatkraw

Guest

Lad

Guest

greatkraw

Guest

miktre

Guest

miktre

Guest

charisenexcelcis

Guest

miktre

Guest

charisenexcelcis

Guest

sword

Guest

miktre

Guest

miktre

Guest

charisenexcelcis

Guest

miktre

Guest