I am asking you to respond to the verses as written. Do you believe that is how a mature Christian lives their life.
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I am asking you to respond to the verses as written. Do you believe that is how a mature Christian lives their life.
If I understood your question then I would answer. I am assuming that you think Paul always did evil and never did any good before he was saved. Is that what you mean because that's the way you phrased your questions.
I simply quoted Paul's words as written in the NIV. If you do not answer the question, I shall not answer yours
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. Rom 7:7-13
There should be no doubt in anyones mind Paul is speaking in the above of his life as a Pharisee, for he is speaking of when the law came to him, and brought death(condemnation) to him. The law came to Paul when he was a Pharisee. Paul the Christian did not live under the law, therefore it could not condemn him.
So the question is, did Paul simply carry on and explain his life living under the law in the following verses, or did he jump from speaking of his life as a Pharisee to his life as a mature Christian?
''We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.[SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord''
Well it would be some jump if he immediately moved forward twenty years in his life wouldn't it? Paul is speaking of defeat and sin being his master in those verses. That is very different from the Paul who stresses sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace, and that is Paul's central message of grace. How can you merge those verses with what Paul insisted on in ch8? IE
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace 5&6
[SUP] [/SUP]
The above is not compatible with the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 He states he is a slave to sin in those verses, and in ch6:16 he states if you are a slave of sin this leads to death. So he would be condemning himself if he is speaking as a mature Christian in ch7:14-25
As to your highlighted verses:
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me
you have to understand the whole section is about Paul being a slave of sin and ruled by sin, therefore he is saying he cannot live as he wants to live for sin controls him, wins the battle and makes him do what he does not want to do. You have to read those two verses in view of the others related to that section, not just pluck them out without considering that. He is speaking of his general condition.
The core of Paul's message of grace is sin is overcome by living under a righteousness of faith in Christ, not obedience to the law. He is hardly going to change tack in those eleven verses and all of a sudden state he is sins slave when he lives under grace and not law. If that was the case you would have to rip up his message of grace. He is simply carrying on from what he had previously been explaining of what happened when he lived under the law as a Pharisee, and going into detail as to what that meant in his life.
Though you did not answer my question, I have yours. I doubt you will accept the answer, so I will leave it there. All I will say is, if you relate to the Paul of verses 14-25 I hope you will discover his Gospel of grace, for you must in reality be living under the law in your heart, even if you believe you are not doing in your head.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. Rom 7:7-13
There should be no doubt in anyones mind Paul is speaking in the above of his life as a Pharisee, for he is speaking of when the law came to him, and brought death(condemnation) to him. The law came to Paul when he was a Pharisee. Paul the Christian did not live under the law, therefore it could not condemn him.
So the question is, did Paul simply carry on and explain his life living under the law in the following verses, or did he jump from speaking of his life as a Pharisee to his life as a mature Christian?
''We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.[SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord''
Well it would be some jump if he immediately moved forward twenty years in his life wouldn't it? Paul is speaking of defeat and sin being his master in those verses. That is very different from the Paul who stresses sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace, and that is Paul's central message of grace. How can you merge those verses with what Paul insisted on in ch8? IE
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace 5&6
[SUP] [/SUP]
The above is not compatible with the Paul of Rom 7:14-25 He states he is a slave to sin in those verses, and in ch6:16 he states if you are a slave of sin this leads to death. So he would be condemning himself if he is speaking as a mature Christian in ch7:14-25
As to your highlighted verses:
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me
you have to understand the whole section is about Paul being a slave of sin and ruled by sin, therefore he is saying he cannot live as he wants to live for sin controls him, wins the battle and makes him do what he does not want to do. You have to read those two verses in view of the others related to that section, not just pluck them out without considering that. He is speaking of his general condition.
The core of Paul's message of grace is sin is overcome by living under a righteousness of faith in Christ, not obedience to the law. He is hardly going to change tack in those eleven verses and all of a sudden state he is sins slave when he lives under grace and not law. If that was the case you would have to rip up his message of grace. He is simply carrying on from what he had previously been explaining of what happened when he lived under the law as a Pharisee, and going into detail as to what that meant in his life.
Though you did not answer my question, I have yours. I doubt you will accept the answer, so I will leave it there. All I will say is, if you relate to the Paul of verses 14-25 I hope you will discover his Gospel of grace, for you must in reality be living under the law in your heart, even if you believe you are not doing in your head.
Good choice, He did this to me and when I asked for clarification Then rolled the accusations. Don't even bother.
I have highlighted all the past tense statements in red and the present tense statements in blue.
Notice that there are no red words highlighted in the section where you say Paul is talking about his former self. All of those statements are present tense. The language structure proves the context is not talking about Paul's past as does the content. No offence, but you don't understand the content so you are changing the bible to make it say what you think it should say.
Paul says that it's no longer Paul that sins because Paul is dead.... he's been crucified with Christ nevertheless he lives. It's not Paul that now lives, but Christ in Paul. That's explained in the first few verse of the chapter that you left out.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
No, i have failed to love others after i received Jesus Christ. Let me explain it this way. Johnny Appleseed was 23 years old, when he realized he was lost and heading to Hell. He accepts Jesus Christ as His Savior and Lord. The very moment Johnny accepted Jesus into His Heart. Jesus paid the penalty for all of Johnny's 23 years of sinning by the stripes Jesus took, Jesus also went to the cross and was crucified (ONCE) for the man called Johnny Appleseed. And then all of Johnny's sins for the past 23 years are forgiven, wiped clean, never to be remembered ever again, never to be brought up on judgment day, or even though of by God ever again. Johnny Appleseed at the very moment, because Righteous, clean, pure, Holy, Just, unblameable, PERFECT. Now after that time, a year later Johnny Appleseed, started having sexual relationships with girls not being married. Now who is responsible for those sins? Johnny is responsible for any sins that he commits after he was made clean by Jesus Christ. It is written if you sow to the flesh then of the flesh you shall reap corruption, why do they reap corruption? Because they pay the penalty for their own sins after that point. Now lets say that Johnny started fornicating, in the year 2010. And in the year 2012 Johnny Appleseed was still fornicating, now for the last two years Johnny after he got done fornicating, repented every single time, and asked for forgiveness. In the year 2012 Johnny is hit by a car and is killed. Johnny then wakes up many years into the future and it is judgment Day. and he is Judged as a fornicator, and the Word of God teaches that no fornicator will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. So they CAN'T let Johnny into Heaven, because he is a fornicator, and even though he repented after each time he fornicated, forgiveness is only granted to those who are Truly Sorrow from the hearth, truly repent. If John would have Truly repented and cease to ever fornicate again, he would not be judged as a fornicator. Which let us go back again, in the year 2010 Johnny started fornicating, and for a year he fornicated, but in the year 2011 Johnny read the verse and understood the verse in the Bible that said NO Fornicatore will enter into Heaven. So this time He Truly repents, and he ceases to ever again commit fornication. He gets hit by a car in 2012 and dies, he wakes up many years later in the Future and it is Judgement Day, He is let into Heaven, Because he was not found to be a fornicator. Rev 21;8 All liars shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone. i assure you, if on Judgment Day you are judged as a liar, you will not enter into Heaven. But you have been saved, and you lie, and you die, you are a liar. but if you have been saved, and you repent and cease to ever lie again, you are not a liar. A liar is one who continues to lie. A thief is one who continues to steal. A fornicator is one who continues to fornicate. If you do not repent and cease from these things, and you die or are killed, or Christ Returns, you will NOT enter into Heaven, and it doesn't matter how many times your repent of the same sins.
Heavens no. Christians are instructed to forgive other people 70 x 7 times. Jesus forgives us as well, But in order to receive forgiveness a person must Truly Repent of the sin that they did. Tell me if a person ask God to forgive them of a particular sin KNOWING FULL WELL they will do it again, how sorry are they for that sin? Those who are Truly sorrow, cease to do the very things they are repenting of, else they are not sorry. A man can ask God to forgive him every time he beats his wife, but if he does not cease to beat his wife, he is NOT forgiven, no matter how many times he repents. A man who rapes a girl repents afterwards, but does not stop raping girls, is NOT forgiven. Forgiveness is given to those who Truly Repent and ceases to do that which they are repenting of.
Now we are commanded to forgive others their trespasses against us. We do not judge if they are worthy or not to receive such forgiveness, we are commanded to forgive them. God is not under the same commandment. God is not commanded to forgive us. God is a Judge. God decides who He will forgive and who He will not forgive.
This is why it is written "The first shall be last and the last first" The thief on the cross Truly was converted at the cross. Jesus did not judge this based on the thief's word, Jesus knew the mans heart, and the mans heart was True.
Nowhere is Scriptures does it teach that God is subject to only forgiving 70x 7 times. And i, DiscipleDave am not saying that unless our physical behavior is perfect, the Word of God plainly teaches that.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Who? Who is Jesus Salvation for? WHO receives eternal Salvation ? All them that OBEY Him.
I John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Many, many, many verses teaches us to obey Him, to stop obeying the devil. And i say MANY VERSES plainly teach that Truth.
Perfect
^i^ Responding to Post # 140
H
haz
Guest
What I understand, in spite of your claim to the contrary, that you are preaching judgement/condemnation under the law.
You call what God has cleansed, unclean.
BTW, you misunderstand scripture. The fornicator who is turned away refers to those spiritually fornicating with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. It's spiritual fornicators that scripture refers to.
But what you seem to be preaching is we must be perfected by the flesh (Gal 3).
Those who preach messages of judgement/condemnation under the law are the liar that 1John 2:22 speaks against. By their works of the law they deny God, Tit 1:16. They deny that Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world, as they preach righteousness by deeds of the law, which is what you seem to be doing.
1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ
Ahh... so you claim God is less forgiving than Christians are.
And that in spite of the fact that God is love.
H
haz
Guest
I agree.
And how does one do righteousness?
Either of the 2 following options.
Option 1: PERFECT obedience to the law of righteousness.
OR
Option 2: Believing on Jesus, thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Note also here that our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. God's will is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40. We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5. Jesus'commandment is that we believe on him, John 3:16.
And we CANNOT mix these 2 options together. We cannot mix works of the law, with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So how do you see those Adventists I described to you before?
They're divorcees who married another, which Mark 10:11,12 says is adultery?
Are they lost, or did they just slip up and still are saved?
The Holy Spirit is the convicter of sin. Following the letter rather than the Spirit, must lead to condemnation unless.....
I have felt much for many of late. They go to church, young people, simply trusting what the minister tells them. And the minister, refuses to accept one of the two core principals on which the new covenant hinges. It is so tragic
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace Rom8:5&6
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live Rom 8:12&13
I take it you believe the person spoken of in Rom 7:14-25 is a reflection of the above
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H
haz
Guest
Correct answer.
But when we consider your quote below, I'm sure anyone here on CC in adultery as described in Mark 10:11,12 would find that you have preached judgement/condemnation under the law to them. They might even be Adventists reading your posts here on CC and being that they fit the description of adultery in Mark 10:11,12, then you have indirectly judged them as lost.
Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.
Here you say Option 1 where our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5) is the correct answer. But then you mix Option 2 to it and say that perfect obedience to the law is then required as well. So what I see that you preach is a mix of works of the law, with grace. Rom 11:6 says we cannot do this.
You made this same point in your earlier post quoted below.
Here you say that those whose faith is counted for righteousness then do perfect obedience to the law (righteousness).
In other words, you preach condemnation to all who fail to obey the law perfectly, as perfect obedience to the law is the only way you claim that righteousness can be done. You claim that anyone who fails to obey the law perfectly is therefore not righteousness.
But Paul disagreed with you.
Phil 3:7-9
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith
So did Paul preach the same message as you do?
Answer: NO, as scripture confirms.
Instead Paul preached that we should fight the good fight of faith to believe on Jesus.
Michael I know he is a reflection of the above. None of the verses you posted contradict what Paul said in Romans7:14-25
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14
Sin was not Paul's master because he was under grace.
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31
Paul did not nullify the law by his faith. He confessed that the law was holy and good.
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace Rom8:5&6
Paul's mind was not set on fleshly desires, his mind was set on what the Spirit desires.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live Rom 8:12&13
Paul wasn't obligated to the flesh and he didn't live according to it. He was just honest and admitted that he had difficulty doing the things of God and difficulty not doing the things of the flesh. The Spirit in Paul had put to death the misdeeds of the body because his sins were forgiven through Christ.
Good question and I appreciate this kind of debate. I know exactly where you're coming from and I would be asking the same questions if I thought Paul was "sold as a slave to sin". But the verse doesn't say that he was sold as a slave to sin, it says he was sold under sin. Every word in the bible matters and we can't make them say something that they don't say.
What does it mean to be sold under sin? Paul at some time in his life was bought by someone... when that person bought Paul, Paul was under sin. So the question is - who bought Paul?
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I have to see if you agree with this before I continue.
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