sinless? or sinning less.

[michael56]

You are right the NIV does say slave to sin... I was looking at the ESV. So which bible is right, was Paul sold under sin or sold as a slave to sin?

Have you ever sinned since you put God first in your heart?

As to your first point, sold under sin and slave to sin means the same thing.

As to your second point. You seem to have 'theological' understanding of scripture, but not a heartfelt knowledge of scripture. Strangely, this happens to many. Theologically they say much of the right things about grace, but lack something else that is needed. At it is the theological mindset that makes people refuse to accept specific future blessings for the nation of Israel incidentally.

This is the spiritual reality:

Paul spoke to the romans in ch6 saying they used to be slaves to sin before they came to Christ(sin dominated their lives, they were sins slave) but by following the Gospel message he gave them they were set free from sin(understand he is not saying they are sinless, but free from sin dominating their lives/they are its slaves in that context) and they were being led into holiness(leading evermore holy lives) The Paul of rom 7 could not grow to live an evermore holy life. He was controlled by the sin. He could not do what he wanted to do but what he hated to do he kept on doing etc

There are sins that by their very nature will stop you crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness(being led into holiness) these have to be dealt with for you to cross over from one state to another. I could go into this further, but you will not accept it, for you it would not understand it(no offence meant)

Of course I commit sin, no Christian who had been born again of the Spirit could truthfully state they never sin, the standard set by the law is far too high for anyone to perfectly attain to. However there is a huge difference between being a slave to sin(sin masters and dominates your life) and you living an ever more holy life(being led into righteousness) where you see much victory over sin.

 

[michael56]

Thanks... If we disagree, we just agree to disagree lol.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

In as short of answer as you can, why do you think the law has dominion over a man so long as he lives?

Romans 7:1 states that the law no longer has dominion over a Christian for they died to a law of righteousness once they accepted Christ as their saviour. The Christian has to die to that law of righteousness in order to belong to Christ so they may bear fruit for God(verse4) They died to trying to attain Heaven by observing the law, and lived by a righteousness of faith in Christ

 

[gotime]

Romans 7:1 states that the law no longer has dominion over a Christian for they died to a law of righteousness once they accepted Christ as their saviour. The Christian has to die to that law of righteousness in order to belong to Christ so they may bear fruit for God(verse4) They died to trying to attain Heaven by observing the law, and lived by a righteousness of faith in Christ

Well put. I would add to that though.

While the context is addressing people who know the law, it is more than dying from trying to attain by observing the law. It is deeper than that, it is death to the flesh nature that saves them from the law. as verse 4 and 5 show:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Even if a pharisee stopped trying to keep the law for salvation they would still need to die to the flesh through Christ.

The Flesh/sinful nature is the root of the problem and it is that nature that must die not just those of the pharisees who had a law of righteousness but also those who have not the law. ( I acknowledge that this passage is directed to those who do know the law)

 

[gotime]

This death to the old nature through Christ is a must both to those who have the law and to those who have not the law.

 

[michael56]

Well put. I would add to that though.

While the context is addressing people who know the law, it is more than dying from trying to attain by observing the law. It is deeper than that, it is death to the flesh nature that saves them from the law. as verse 4 and 5 show:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Even if a pharisee stopped trying to keep the law for salvation they would still need to die to the flesh through Christ.

The Flesh/sinful nature is the root of the problem and it is that nature that must die not just those of the pharisees who had a law of righteousness but also those who have not the law. ( I acknowledge that this passage is directed to those who do know the law)

I do not mean this critically by any means, but am rather making a general point. We cannot read the bible purely through the lens of the literal word, we have to understand what that word is saying in relation to the fact we are human and all that entails. We are not pre programmed robots if you like.
The moment I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour am I dead to the flesh nature? What do you mean by that? Would that mean from the moment I accept Christ I will not sin? No it cannot mean that, for in truth we all become Christians and have many issues in our lives that need dealing with, and this takes time.
If we add verse 6 to verses four and five you quoted. We follow after the Spirit into holiness, not the written code. But no one perfectly(or robotically you could say) follows after the Spirit and never to any degree deviates from that. Paul is showing us the blueprint if you like of following the correct Path, but none perfectly follows the blueprint. In Gal 5:17 Paul tells us of the eternal struggle between the flesh that wants one thing and the Spirit that wants another, this is always the lot of the Christian. But the more we follow after the Spirit the more we grow, the holier the life we live, the stronger we become.
But for all of us, it is the case of two steps forward and one step back at times(for want of a better expression)
But I think you would agree, the underlying message of the bible to those who love God is His love, mercy and compassion towards them, something every Christian relies on ultimately to inherit eternal life

 

[michael56]

I love the parable of the sower.

In the first example, a person heard the message but satan came and stole away what was put in the heart

In the second example. the person was shallow, they had no true root. They accepted the message with gladness, but when trial and persecution came, because of that shallowness they fell away

In the third example the person heard the word and received it, but as they went on their way in the Christian life they were side tracked from reaching maturity by the things of this world, the care for wealth and pleasure. Interestingly Jesus does not say they lose their salvation, but rather they did not mature as Christians. Why is that? Because even when we are faithless Jesus remains faithful for he cannot disown his own(unless they actually disown him) As the person has been born again of the spirit the distractions will hurt him greatly, it can be no other way. He will suffer in this life until he comes before God and better bows the knee, as well as lose much reward when he inherits eternal life.

But in the fourth example, the person understood the message and persevered in the faith. They were the one who reaped a harvest, thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times what was sown

The message must be understood, and God has to truly come first in the heart for a bountiful harvest to be seen

 

[gotime]

I do not mean this critically by any means, but am rather making a general point. We cannot read the bible purely through the lens of the literal word, we have to understand what that word is saying in relation to the fact we are human and all that entails. We are not pre programmed robots if you like.
The moment I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour am I dead to the flesh nature? What do you mean by that? Would that mean from the moment I accept Christ I will not sin? No it cannot mean that, for in truth we all become Christians and have many issues in our lives that need dealing with, and this takes time.
If we add verse 6 to verses four and five you quoted. We follow after the Spirit into holiness, not the written code. But no one perfectly(or robotically you could say) follows after the Spirit and never to any degree deviates from that. Paul is showing us the blueprint if you like of following the correct Path, but none perfectly follows the blueprint. In Gal 5:17 Paul tells us of the eternal struggle between the flesh that wants one thing and the Spirit that wants another, this is always the lot of the Christian. But the more we follow after the Spirit the more we grow, the holier the life we live, the stronger we become.
But for all of us, it is the case of two steps forward and one step back at times(for want of a better expression)
But I think you would agree, the underlying message of the bible to those who love God is His love, mercy and compassion towards them, something every Christian relies on ultimately to inherit eternal life

Good question:

"The moment I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour am I dead to the flesh nature? What do you mean by that? Would that mean from the moment I accept Christ I will not sin?"

Let me clarify my meaning, first no I do not believe all sin stops the second a person accepts Christ, that is something we grow into as we learn to trust Him more.

however we do at that moment if we have been instructed properly have a power over the old nature through the Spirit.

For example when I first understood this my life drastically changed all known sin ceased. literally the very day I understood and Repented in tears and grasped Hold of my Saviors promise. What do I mean by all known sin?

Everything that I:

1, new was sin
2, was aware I was committing

So no I was not sinless (I was tempted to think I was at one point) But for me, Masturbation, pornography, anger problems etc all ceased from that very moment. Things I struggled with and prayed about for years Just stopped as I looked to Jesus as my only hope. I realized the promises of God where mighty and real by experience. My joy could not be hidden, friends would ask me why I was so happy and I would tell them of what Christ has done for me. I still do that very thing to this day.

But there were sins in my life that I was not aware of, I studied my bible and as I did the Spirit would speak to me through the words and I would get convicted of something in my life that was wrong. And I would wast no time repenting and looking to Jesus and the very same victory He gave me then I had over the newly realized sin. Since that time the road has been an upward one with little kinks here and there but the trend is always upward.

I have found the key is to be vigilant always, constantly in communion with Jesus. I have found that I only fall when for some reason or another I let myself be distracted from Christ. but when my Faith is firmly planted on Him at all times no power on earth or in heaven can make me fall.

The Key is Jesus.

 

[michael56]

Good question:

"The moment I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour am I dead to the flesh nature? What do you mean by that? Would that mean from the moment I accept Christ I will not sin?"

Let me clarify my meaning, first no I do not believe all sin stops the second a person accepts Christ, that is something we grow into as we learn to trust Him more.

however we do at that moment if we have been instructed properly have a power over the old nature through the Spirit.

For example when I first understood this my life drastically changed all known sin ceased. literally the very day I understood and Repented in tears and grasped Hold of my Saviors promise. What do I mean by all known sin?

Everything that I:

1, new was sin
2, was aware I was committing

So no I was not sinless (I was tempted to think I was at one point) But for me, Masturbation, pornography, anger problems etc all ceased from that very moment. Things I struggled with and prayed about for years Just stopped as I looked to Jesus as my only hope. I realized the promises of God where mighty and real by experience. My joy could not be hidden, friends would ask me why I was so happy and I would tell them of what Christ has done for me. I still do that very thing to this day.

But there were sins in my life that I was not aware of, I studied my bible and as I did the Spirit would speak to me through the words and I would get convicted of something in my life that was wrong. And I would wast no time repenting and looking to Jesus and the very same victory He gave me then I had over the newly realized sin. Since that time the road has been an upward one with little kinks here and there but the trend is always upward.

I have found the key is to be vigilant always, constantly in communion with Jesus. I have found that I only fall when for some reason or another I let myself be distracted from Christ. but when my Faith is firmly planted on Him at all times no power on earth or in heaven can make me fall.

The Key is Jesus.

I would agree that if a person did not understand viewing pornography and masturbating were sinful they could not be born again of the Holy Spirit. Please note, that does not state a person must be sinless to be a Christian, but they would have to be aware those things are sinful.
I also believe we are convicted by the Spirit of arrears in our life that need changing as we read scripture. But the law if you like God requires us to keep is instinctively known to us being written on our minds and placed on our hearts. We have to discern the difference in the two.

 

[gotime]

I would agree that if a person did not understand viewing pornography and masturbating were sinful they could not be born again of the Holy Spirit. Please note, that does not state a person must be sinless to be a Christian, but they would have to be aware those things are sinful.
I also believe we are convicted by the Spirit of arrears in our life that need changing as we read scripture. But the law if you like God requires us to keep is instinctively known to us being written on our minds and placed on our hearts. We have to discern the difference in the two.

What exactly is the law written on the heart in your view?

 

[michael56]

What exactly is the law written on the heart in your view?

The simplest way to answer that is to say, you know what that law is for you must have a conscience when you break it. Or you could also say, anything that directly relates, in your heart to loving God and your neighbour.
For example, the Pharisees, as you accept perfectly kept the legalistic law, but they did not know God. I would say the lw relating to the heart of the Gospel is on your heart, something missed by the Pharisees of Jesus day who hung everything on strict obedience to the literal letter

 

[gotime]

The simplest way to answer that is to say, you know what that law is for you must have a conscience when you break it. Or you could also say, anything that directly relates, in your heart to loving God and your neighbour.
For example, the Pharisees, as you accept perfectly kept the legalistic law, but they did not know God. I would say the lw relating to the heart of the Gospel is on your heart, something missed by the Pharisees of Jesus day who hung everything on strict obedience to the literal letter

ok cheers for that. I asked cause it just occurred to me that I did not know exactly what your view was on that.

I see it pretty much the same way.

 

[haz]

I do not believe all sin stops the second a person accepts Christ, that is something we grow into as we learn to trust Him more.

All PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Our sins were washed by his blood, Rev 1:5.
Thus being washed clean by his blood and our life now hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3), we're covered by his righteousness/holiness/sinlessness.

BUT, you claim that Christians are immediately unclean with sin, again, after we've been washed.
What scripture do you base this on?
And how are these unclean Christians going to get clean again when the cross only dealt with PAST sin, Rom 3:25?

Now you no doubt see many of us here on CC as unclean sinners because we do not keep the Sabbath as Adventists say it should be kept. Now many here have heard the teachings about the Sabbath numerous times here on CC. Are you saying that we're unsaved because we rejected (based on scripture) these warnings about keeping the Sabbath?

 

[gotime]

All PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Our sins were washed by his blood, Rev 1:5.
Thus being washed clean by his blood and our life now hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3), we're covered by his righteousness/holiness/sinlessness.

BUT, you claim that Christians are immediately unclean with sin, again, after we've been washed.
What scripture do you base this on?
And how are these unclean Christians going to get clean again when the cross only dealt with PAST sin, Rom 3:25?

Now you no doubt see many of us here on CC as unclean sinners because we do not keep the Sabbath as Adventists say it should be kept. Now many here have heard the teachings about the Sabbath numerous times here on CC. Are you saying that we're unsaved because we rejected (based on scripture) these warnings about keeping the Sabbath?

Hi haz,

you said "BUT, you claim that Christians are immediately unclean with sin, again, after we've been washed.
What scripture do you base this on?"

I don't believe that at all, things I may have written may well have given you that impression. but no I don't think committing sin pulls you out of salvation like a yo yo. We simply confess and continue to walk with our Lord.

A bit like a marriage, If you have a fight are you suddenly divorced? no of course not, you apologies make up and move on in the relationship.

The Cross deals with all sin past present and future. but if a person turns back to sin/deliberate premeditated sin. then the way back is the same way they first got there, confession and faith in Jesus to cleanse us.

you also said:

Now you no doubt see many of us here on CC as unclean sinners because we do not keep the Sabbath as Adventists say it should be kept. Now many here have heard the teachings about the Sabbath numerous times here on CC. Are you saying that we're unsaved because we rejected (based on scripture) these warnings about keeping the Sabbath?

There you are wrong and again i probably have written things that gave you that impression. I don't think that everyone who does not keep the Sabbath is unsaved. Most do not keep it because they just don't understand it yet.

But if someone has seen it and understood it to be still in effect and then rejects it then they are in trouble.

But that is between them and God.

 

[michael56]

All PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Our sins were washed by his blood, Rev 1:5.
Thus being washed clean by his blood and our life now hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3), we're covered by his righteousness/holiness/sinlessness.

BUT, you claim that Christians are immediately unclean with sin, again, after we've been washed.
What scripture do you base this on?
And how are these unclean Christians going to get clean again when the cross only dealt with PAST sin, Rom 3:25?

Now you no doubt see many of us here on CC as unclean sinners because we do not keep the Sabbath as Adventists say it should be kept. Now many here have heard the teachings about the Sabbath numerous times here on CC. Are you saying that we're unsaved because we rejected (based on scripture) these warnings about keeping the Sabbath?

I think realistically we have to accept a seventh day Adventist, come what may will never change their mind about the insistence of accepting a Saturday Sabbath. They would have to give up their core belief that sets them apart from mainstream to do so. Their church, in effect would in all likelihood cease to exist

I asked a seventh day Adventist-who accepted I was a Christian-and also accepted under the new covenant the law is written on our mind and placed on our heart God requires us to keep, why they believed I had no heartfelt conviction I was sinning by refusing to accept a specific Saturday Sabbath. They simply said they had no answer to that question, but although they could not answer it, they stuck firmly to their belief.

If I am honest, I can say to some degree I have been guilty of digging in my heels at times, though on quiet reflection I have questioned something I may have previously considered correct.

Your points are great, I do not mean to suggest they should not be made, it is just having spent more time with some SDA of late, I better appreciate what the responses must-or will be

 

[michael56]

But if someone has seen it and understood it to be still in effect and then rejects it then they are in trouble.

But that is between them and God.

No truly born again Christian could reject any law placed on their heart and written on their mind by the Spirit. They would have to know they were sinning by refusing to obey it. I am not trying to but into your discussion, simply clarifying that point

 

[gotime]

No truly born again Christian could reject any law placed on their heart and written on their mind by the Spirit. They would have to know they were sinning by refusing to obey it. I am not trying to but into your discussion, simply clarifying that point

You said "I also believe we are convicted by the Spirit of arrears in our life that need changing as we read scripture."

What if the Sabbath was one of those?

God puts love in our hearts, It is that love that causes me to keep the Sabbath.

For example. I have not always kept the Sabbath, I used to be in a Pentecostal church and my Dad was a Seventh Day Adventist minister. But I did no believe the Sabbath mattered and hence I left that church when I was old enough and joined a Pentecostal church. For years I was happy. Then one day I became hungry to know more and so I began to study my bible deeper than ever before. It initially was about speaking in tongues and slaying in the spirit. I wanted to understand them more. During that study I discovered many things that I did not know. but I remember one day I was reading the Gospel and the Sabbath jumped out at me, "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" I then over time followed through the whole bible and a deep conviction came over me that the Sabbath was still part of Gods sign in Christianity.

See God had already put His love in my heart, I loved God and loved others. But when I was convicted that the Sabbath was still in effect and indeed would always be into eternity as a constant memorial in time that Jesus is our Creator and our re-creator/salvation/new creature. It was then that the very love that God had put in my heart caused me to love the Sabbath and desire to keep it.

I was so convicted that I went into my Job and told my boss I could not work there anymore because of the Sabbath. Knowing that I would have no way of making money etc. but God blessed me in that, and I have never looked back.

 

[PeterJens]

A good question. Another would be does a perfect person know they are perfect? Sin is actually about in-appropriate behaviour which does not honour or respect the people involved. The problem is this is often spotted by seeing context, and what is going on in another person, where one type of response could be destructive and another supportive. You then find other than obvious sin, the focus is on meeting need and responding to circumstance.
Take a classic dilemma of work equipment. You have a pen. It is for work and you carry it with you. You need to write a letter, and use the work pen. Is that theft? In simple terms no, you have been provided with a pen to write, which you do. Your work could stipulate the pen should only be used for work actions, but that would be petty and stupid so does not. On the other hand to take pens from the stationary cupboard and use them at home because buying them would cost is theft. Now I have this sensitivity, and would try to supply my own pens etc. because it is simpler and I can freely give them. We know we are still alive in the Lord and not being hypocritical when we are still sensitive to such issues, but we need to avoid self condemnation and justification, which the sinless, still sinning debate often causes...

 

[Antoniasmithreborn]

I'm new to this,is my 1 st 1, but I think im in trouble an have sinnered moor cut i was tryin to punnins me for all the uther sins i did and now im in a spot and im a new cristiun that s only just bin reborn and i think I didnt understand the rules an am in a wurst spot.

 

[michael56]

You said "I also believe we are convicted by the Spirit of arrears in our life that need changing as we read scripture."

What if the Sabbath was one of those?

Interestingly, many who join the sda church have come from Pentecostal churches. I do not find that hard to understand. Apart from two or three obvious doctrinal differences(on both sides) the general thrust of belief as to what a person must do to attain Heaven is pretty much the same, so I have found is the structure of the service.

What I do know is, to a Seventh Day Adventist the Ten Commandments are of great significance, therefore, we can know that a Seventh day Adventist would have to consider those laws/commandments would be written on the mind and placed on the heart of every born again believer. Indeed, in my wifes church when someone is baptised those commandments are specifically mentioned as being ''active'' and must be followed. Therefore I cannot imagine an sda member thinking commandments so important to follow would not be considered important enough to placed within the born again Christian

 

[michael56]

You said "I also believe we are convicted by the Spirit of arrears in our life that need changing as we read scripture."

What if the Sabbath was one of those?

You previously stated-and I quote:

'''See the lawis good, holy and Just. its not bad but it became death to us because we brokeit. That includes the Sabbath.

When that same Good, holy , Just law is in our hearts we are empowered by Godsspirit to now walk in those very laws we used to break. that is salvation fromsin in Christ.

The reason the Sabbath is not on yourheart is you refuse to let God put it there by refusing to accept it is sin inthe fristplace to break it. You don't see your need as you should.'''

Also:

'''God doesnot force but you refuse to acknowledge that not keeping the Sabbath is sin.You reject the law of God as a reprover of sin and thus you reject Gods writingit on your heart.'''


I think from the above it is safe to assume you do believe observing a Saturday Sabbath is a law written on the Christians mind and placed on their heart