When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

2 witnesses????
Jesus???
Those resurrected patriarchs after the cross????

You will ,at some point, HAVE to rethink,or be permanently bogged down in that postrb mess.

I mentioned JESUS as the firstfruits who was resurrected into a spiritual body 2,000 years ago.

Again, and I sound like a broken record, Paul says:

Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...

Paul says CHRIST, then those who are Christ's at His (Second) coming. Then comes the end. There are no other resurrections mentioned. There isn't a Part A and Part B to "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is "ONE COMING" not two. There is one future resurrection, NOT two. PLAIN WORD!! PLAIN MEANING. NO secret Rapture, no inventing based on mis understood parables allowed, sorry.

The testimony of Israel and the Church will end. They are the two Lampstands and two Olive Trees. It is these two groups that the BEAST wages war with and overcomes.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them.

The above explains the below:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Make War, Overcome, prevail against!! Two Groups. Same imagery, same event. See if you can follow the poetry of John as he uses poetry found throughout the Bible. It's beautiful really. The first phrase describe the two witness of Rev 11, the rest are other passages in the Bible.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands"
the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them (natural olive tree - Israel)

And I will give power to my two witnesses...
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

fire proceeds from their mouth...
“Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.
Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it.

I could go on but the point is the enemy in Revelation is ISLAM. She is the Harlot. In 688 AD, the Muslim religion took over the Temple Mount replacing worship of God. This goes on for 42 prophetic months. Months are used to describe evil - Lunar = Luna = Crazy = Satan. 42 months equals 1260 days and days are years in prophetic language. During those 42 months, the two witnesses were out in the field 1,260 days, from 688 AD to 1948 bearing Witness of God and the Kingdom.

The text does not say that they are killed the moment the 1,260 days are up. They are killed when they finish their testimony. We have seen a global moral decline in our generation like none other in over 1,000 years.

Yes, the two witnesses are part of Resurrection and Rapture, the one and only.

"..And they ascended to heaven in a cloud.."
will by no means precede those who are asleep...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..

The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

The 2nd woe ties to the 6th trumpet. The third and final woe is the 7th trumpet, 7th seal, 7th Bowl when the Lord returns.

 

[Elin]

The church is already the wife/bride of Christ (Eph 5:29-32)
which is why she is his body (Eph 5:30)
in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32).

We have not yet recieved glorified bodies.

Agreed. . .

The bride thing is more than 1 dimension.

Yes, it is of both time and eternity.

The church is the bride of Christ now, and for all eternity.

We are also seated with Christ Jesus in heavenly places. (figuratively).

No, not figuratively, but spiritually, because we are spiritually in Christ who is seated there.

Figurative is not spiritual reality, it is only a picture of reality.

Our being in Christ now is spiritual reality, it is not just a figure/picture/shadow of reality.

And because we are spiritually in Christ now, we are likewise spiritually seated in the heavenly realms now.

 

[popeye]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Sorry, you crack me up. So Christ went back to heaven to build additions? There wasn't enough rooms so He had to build more??? Granted, he was a carpenter but dude, that is so funny!!! Sorry, you are killing me. Again, how did Christ prepare our way to heaven??? By building more rooms or dying on the cross?



Because nothing about the Jewish Wedding Ceremony proves pre or post Trib. The timing for the wedding and wedding supper given is located in Rev 19 after the Trib. I pointed that out to you but since it doesn't fit your narrative, you ignore that fact.



Sorry, I don't see how. Seems to me it paints you in the corner. You leave out all those killed during the Tribulation when clearly they are not left out as being part of the Bride. Christ reigns with the beheaded martyrs. OOPS to you.



This escape? “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. How does one escape the region of the "Earth" which by the way is the Muslim world (in case you haven't figured that out yet)? How about LEAVE. They can load up their cars, camels or whatever and get out of those Muslim nations where the Wrath will be poured out.



Who was this written to? How about the Church of Philadelphia in 96AD. The Christian world in Asia Minor was under severe persecution and tribulation in John's day. I guess this church escaped it. The purpose of John's letters to the 7 churches was to warn them, coach some of them, and to encourage them so that they could endure the Tribulation they were experiencing. If you want to read something bigger into that phrase and have it apply to you 2,000 years later, go ahead but nothing tells you to make that leap.

All you are doing is ISOLATING verses and refusing to add the weight of what jesus himself said. You even poo-poo parables,the words of Jesus.

2 In my Father's house (RIGHT NOW)are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go(TO HEAVEN) to prepare a place for you(BUILD,MAKE,MODIFY,WHO REALLY NEEDS TO KNOW?).3 And if I go(TO HEAVEN) and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am(uh, NO BRAINER....HEAVEN), there (HEAVEN)ye may be also.

It is llike you even mock Jesus for preparing a place for us.

Do you also mock this?;

13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

See that? "prepare a place".......UPPER ROOM????...hello?????

 

[PlainWord]

All you are doing is ISOLATING verses and refusing to add the weight of what jesus himself said. You even poo-poo parables,the words of Jesus.

I don't poo-poo. I disagree with how you apply parables to invent events that are not found on their own. Parables are to be used as additional instructions/information for truths/events already taught. They are not used for you to make stuff up. There is ABSOLUTELY no clear and concise teaching of an earlier return of Christ whereby He (or anyone else) tells us with specificity that He is coming back before the Tribulation and taking any living person off the planet and back to heaven.

I challenged you 100 times to show me one passage that says that. Instead you cite wedding ceremonies and 10 virgins as evidence when neither prove a pre-trib timing. The body of Christ did not leave here pristine. It was full of scars from the cross - from being beaten, nailed to the cross and run in with a sword. Likewise, the Bride is not leaving this earth pristine either - She/We will go through "fire" persecution and tribulation. This isn't speculation, this is a Biblical fact!!

2 In my Father's house (RIGHT NOW)are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go(TO HEAVEN) to prepare a place for you(BUILD,MAKE,MODIFY,WHO REALLY NEEDS TO KNOW?).3 And if I go(TO HEAVEN) and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am(uh, NO BRAINER....HEAVEN), there (HEAVEN)ye may be also.

What was weighing on the Lord's mind when He made this comment? Look at the context, back in John 13. They just had the Last Supper. He was telling His disciples that He was leaving them. Jesus was sad. He was about to be betrayed. He was about to go to the Cross, that very night!! Peter was about to deny Him. His body didn't go to heaven for 43 more days!!! He was going to the cross within hours!!

Look at the Lord's frame of mind from Mat 26, same evening. He was dreading the unspeakable torture and pain that was coming.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.” [SUP]39 [/SUP]He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

Christ CANNOT prepare their way to heaven without first going to the Cross.

Why is this even a big deal to you? I know it's an extremely important passage for your theory but does it say or mean what you think? There is no collaboration from Matthew, Mark or Luke.

Let's say you are right and Christ needs to build some additions in heaven to make room for more people. Okay, fine. There will be 2,000 years worth of souls and counting going there. But He NEVER tells us that He is coming back here to bring us resurrected back up there.

"I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

When Christ returns, He comes to reign, to defeat His enemies and we reign with Him. So when He returns and gathers us, we will be with Him right here on earth, not back up in heaven. All of His disciples died and their souls went to heaven and they are with Jesus right now. So He does not need to come back, resurrect them, and take them back to heaven in spiritual bodies. Why would 2,000 years of dead believers who are already in heaven as souls with the Lord, conscience and awake, praising Him and happy need to come back to earth just to get a glorified body then return to heaven? Makes no practical sense.

Thus, when He comes again, He is here on earth, more specifically Jerusalem and His disciples are reigning with Him in Jerusalem.

This Biblical fact is confirmed in Rev 5:

And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

It is llike you even mock Jesus for preparing a place for us.

I DO NOT MOCK THE CROSS. Why is it you pre-tribbers think that if another Christian doesn't share your invented doctrine that we are somehow bad. Your pre-trib, additional return of Christ is nothing more than a theory. It is wishful thinking. There is no room for it in the scriptures. It is not taught anywhere, not as a stand alone lesson and certainly not part of the overall plan. Christ NEVER breathes a word about it in all of His sermons. Instead Christ promises His followers that we will suffer for Him and He never reverses this fact for End Times Believers, rather He warns us that we will have it the worst - yet, you think we fly away and miss the whole thing. I mock your doctrine, not you and certainly not the Cross - so stop that talk please. It's offensive.

See that? "prepare a place".......UPPER ROOM????...hello?????

This is what I mean. You take a completely unrelated event and try to prove a Pre-Trib Rapture with it. What does preparing the upper room for the passover have to do with preparing for the Cross or a place in heaven?

How does Jesus say we are to follow him?

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Again, I can find no passage where followers of Christ are told they get to escape the biggest tribulation this world will ever see and fly off to heaven. Such a lesson just is not found. It reminds me of the message from the Garden and how Satan twisted it.

This is the promise of God:

God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

This is how Satan reversed the same teaching:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

This is what Christ promises?

In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

This is what the Pre-Trib Rapture teaches:

You will not have tribulation, instead, you get to fly away and all the tribulation that is coming is for someone else - those "left behind."

 

[GaryA]

The "end" is associated clearly with the gospel being preached in all the world.

I believe that the word 'end' in Matthew 24:13 is referring to 'the end of life', not 'the end of time'.

I believe that the word 'end' in Matthew 24:14, however, refers to 'the end of the age'.

I do not believe that verse 13 and verse 14 are associated directly.

 

[GaryA]

According to the contemporary historian Josephus, there were 97,000 prisoners and 1,100,000 who perished. He also cites a widespread slaughter by the local populations elsewhere where the Jews were disliked including Damascus 18,000 plus their families and Egypt 60,000 plus families.

Not enough dead in the AD 70 event to be considered the Great Tribulation. 6,000,000 Jews died during Nazi Germany.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Greatest Tribulation EVER in AD 70? I think not. The world has never seen a war or mass global death event over 5% of population except for the Great Flood. Thus the Great Tribulation could not be in the past and must be future.

70 A.D. marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The end of it is future. The whole thing ( ~2000 years ) - collectively - is "the worst" the world has ever seen - none before it or after it.

~ Nazi Holocaust - included

~ Dark Ages - included

~ World wars 1 & 2 - included

~ Vietnam war - included

~ Modern "ethnic cleansing" - included

.
.
.


All part of the same long ( ~2000 year ) Great Tribulation.


Understand?

 

[GaryA]

The trigger for the start of the Great Tribulation is the appearance of the Abomination of Desolation. This A of D event, whatever it is and wherever it appears, is of unspeakable evil. I believe it will be the greatest offense to God that the world has ever seen. It was foretold some 2,500 years ago and reaffirmed by Christ. I further believe that when it happens, the slaughter begins and that's why those in Judea are told to immediately flee. { And - they did! ( 70 A.D. ) } The GT is so bad that God must intervene and put a stop to it or Satan will kill everybody. { This is future - still to come! } I believe that when it ends, we see the signs in heaven. It may be that those signs are the reason the killing stops. Those doing the killing see the signs and have an "oh crap, what have I been doing?" moment.

The past ~2000 years has been the most unspeakable evil -- and, the greatest offense to God -- that the world has ever seen...

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that the word 'end' in Matthew 24:13 is referring to 'the end of life', not 'the end of time'.

I believe that the word 'end' in Matthew 24:14, however, refers to 'the end of the age'.

I do not believe that verse 13 and verse 14 are associated directly.

Interesting. Why do you see these as discussing a different period of time? I totally see them related. "Then the end will come." What end? The end He just mentioned in the previous sentence, "...But He who endures to the end will be saved..."

When Christ returns, that's the End of the Age. Anyone who has endured through the Tribulation, has kept His command to persevere, shall be saved.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

But is that the end of life? No.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[SUP][h][/SUP] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

 

[kennethcadwell]

Interesting. Why do you see these as discussing a different period of time? I totally see them related. "Then the end will come." What end? The end He just mentioned in the previous sentence, "...But He who endures to the end will be saved..."

When Christ returns, that's the End of the Age. Anyone who has endured through the Tribulation, has kept His command to persevere, shall be saved.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

But is that the end of life? No.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[SUP][h][/SUP] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

Well I don't agree with GaryA that the GT is 2000+ years long, as we have enough biblical evidence to point to a final 7 year period with the final 3 1/2 years being great tribulation.
The other things is when it comes to Matthew 24:13 and 24:14 I do not see it as different periods of time, but I can see the end in both being referred to two different endings. The end of the age in 24:14 and then physical death in that same time period in 24:13.

We can see this by Matthew 10:22 when Jesus is commissioning the Apostles to go out two by two and spread the gospel to the surrounding areas, and here Jesus tells them the same thing that those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 10 has nothing to do with the tribulation period (end of the age).
So we can take by this that those who stay in the faith enduring all the hardships that we will face by standing for Jesus name, will be saved when our end in this life comes. Apostle Paul shows this same teaching multiple times with his continuing usage of continue in, stay firm in, and also endure through all things in the faith.

 

[PlainWord]

70 A.D. marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The end of it is future. The whole thing ( ~2000 years ) - collectively - is "the worst" the world has ever seen - none before it or after it.

~ Nazi Holocaust - included

~ Dark Ages - included

~ World wars 1 & 2 - included

~ Vietnam war - included

~ Modern "ethnic cleansing" - included

.
.
.


All part of the same long ( ~2000 year ) Great Tribulation.


Understand?

I understand your position. It is a possible explanation but I see too many problems with it. First, is the Tribulation aimed at the Jews or Christians? We aren't told.

AD 70 is definitely when the Jews were last scattered and lost their homeland. But let's face it, the Jews suffered tribulation and loss of their homeland before. In fact, they have been persecuted throughout their history. However, the text states pretty clearly that this tribulation will be the greatest ever known. Were the AD 70 events the greatest ever known? The Assyrians were more ruthless and Hitler killed more Jews. So the phrase, "...great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..." does not seem to have been met in AD 70, further there was no A of D.

Christianity began rough with Christians enduring great hardship throughout the apostolic and post apostolic periods. Nero obviously was very hard on Christians and both Peter and Paul were killed in Rome prior to the AD 70 events. Roman persecutions of Christians ended in 311 AD by decree of Constantine and Christian persecution world wide diminished for quite some time.

Pockets of Christian persecution existed in Persia in the 4th century and in Yemen in the 6th century. Then in the 8th century through the 14th century with the Islamic Caliphates Christians were persecuted and killed in predominately Muslim regions. However, none of these rises to the level you would expect.

There is no doubt that Tribulation for Christians is on the rise again in Muslim nations and places like Russia, China, India and North Korea. However, nothing jumps out at me as the "Worst Ever." But we could be seeing the start of it now.

 

[PlainWord]

The past ~2000 years has been the most unspeakable evil -- and, the greatest offense to God -- that the world has ever seen...

Not sure I agree with you there. The world pre-flood was obviously far worse and prompted God to destroy creation, save those in the ark. People were sleeping with demons, etc. Fast forward to the Tower of Babel. This was also a very evil period of time and caused God to change tongues and scatter the people. Rome was pretty evil but I don't think she rose to the level of the other two periods.

For me, I'm still looking for a worse period of time and I'm seeing the moral decline just in my 52 years that I feel like was more rapid then any time I can think of since Rome. Values and families are shattered. Pop Culture is horrible. Education is pathetic and I don't think it is limited to just America.

When I look at end times prophesy I see the roots of many things that are supposed to happen, starting to happen. Russia, Iran and Saudi Arabia appear to play prominent parts in the end times and all three are asserting themselves. The USA is under the weakest leadership in my life (maybe in its history). This is prompting the bad actors to rise up and see what they can get away with. They know they have less than 2 years left to act up. I expect things to snow ball from here.

 

[valiant]

I understand your position. It is a possible explanation but I see too many problems with it. First, is the Tribulation aimed at the Jews or Christians? We aren't told.

Luke 21 in the parallel passage makes quite clear that it refers to the Jew, and that it includes the investment of Jerusalem, its final destruction, the scattering of the Jews throughout the nations, and all that will happen to them until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. Great tribulation indeed, No other nation has ever faced such tribulation for so long a period.

AD 70 is definitely when the Jews were last scattered and lost their homeland. But let's face it, the Jews suffered tribulation and loss of their homeland before. In fact, they have been persecuted throughout their history. However, the text states pretty clearly that this tribulation will be the greatest ever known. Were the AD 70 events the greatest ever known?

This indicates how badly you missed his point. It did not JUST include the 70 AD events, it included ALL that has happened to the Jews since as Luke 21 makes clear in accordance with Deut 28. It is certainly the greatest ever known on any nation..

The Assyrians were more ruthless and Hitler killed more Jews

.

But the latter is part of the great tribulation on the Jews.

So the phrase, "...great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be..." does not seem to have been met in AD 70, further there was no A of D.

No, it only STARTED in 70 AD. It has continued ever since.

Christianity began rough with Christians enduring great hardship throughout the apostolic and post apostolic periods. Nero obviously was very hard on Christians and both Peter and Paul were killed in Rome prior to the AD 70 events. Roman persecutions of Christians ended in 311 AD by decree of Constantine and Christian persecution world wide diminished for quite some time.

So it was nothing like the 2000 years of tribulation suffered by the Jews. And it was only spasmodic.

Pockets of Christian persecution existed in Persia in the 4th century and in Yemen in the 6th century. Then in the 8th century through the 14th century with the Islamic Caliphates Christians were persecuted and killed in predominately Muslim regions. However, none of these rises to the level you would expect.

Of course not. They are not continuous on ONE NATION.

There is no doubt that Tribulation for Christians is on the rise again in Muslim nations and places like Russia, China, India and North Korea. However, nothing jumps out at me as the "Worst Ever."

None of them have remotely lasted 2000 years.

But we could be seeing the start of it now.

Too late. It started 2000 years ago

 

[valiant]

Not sure I agree with you there. The world pre-flood was obviously far worse and prompted God to destroy creation, save those in the ark. People were sleeping with demons, etc. Fast forward to the Tower of Babel. This was also a very evil period of time and caused God to change tongues and scatter the people. Rome was pretty evil but I don't think she rose to the level of the other two periods.

For me, I'm still looking for a worse period of time and I'm seeing the moral decline just in my 52 years that I feel like was more rapid then any time I can think of since Rome. Values and families are shattered. Pop Culture is horrible. Education is pathetic and I don't think it is limited to just America.

When I look at end times prophesy I see the roots of many things that are supposed to happen, starting to happen. Russia, Iran and Saudi Arabia appear to play prominent parts in the end times and all three are asserting themselves. The USA is under the weakest leadership in my life (maybe in its history). This is prompting the bad actors to rise up and see what they can get away with. They know they have less than 2 years left to act up. I expect things to snow ball from here.

well if we can get rid of the US we can start up our empire again LOL Maybe that will last 1000 years and produce the spurious millennium.

 

[GaryA]

Interesting. Why do you see these as discussing a different period of time?

Grammar and Context.

Verse 13 is talking about martyrs "keeping the faith unto death"; the 'end' in verse 14 is talking about the same thing as the 'end' in verse 6.

The 'patience and faith of the saints' is talking about standing strong in the faith until death.

 

[PlainWord]

well if we can get rid of the US we can start up our empire again LOL Maybe that will last 1000 years and produce the spurious millennium.

LOL. You guys rocked for centuries until we came along. .

 

[GaryA]

The other things is when it comes to Matthew 24:13 and 24:14 I do not see it as different periods of time, but I can see the end in both being referred to two different endings. The end of the age in 24:14 and then physical death in that same time period in 24:13.

I see Matthew 24:13 in the context of Matthew 24:6-12, the scope of [ the range of time of ] which I see as the past ~2000 years -- from post-70 A.D. - through the Dark Ages - up until modern times.

 

[GaryA]

... is the Tribulation aimed at the Jews or Christians?

"Both..."


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:

[SUP]19[/SUP] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. [SUP]20[/SUP] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Luke 21:

[SUP]23[/SUP] ... for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24[/SUP] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


I believe that the general context and scope of the Olivet Discourse is to Christians ( [ mainly ] Jew ) and about Christians ( Jew and Gentile ) on a world scale over a long period of time. However, Luke 21:20-24 is more specifically referring to events [ that I believe are ] circa 70 A.D. - and of course, extending ( verse 24 ) onward to some point in the future ( 'until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled' ).

I do not believe that the Olivet Discourse is about Israel as a nation.

In 70 A.D., the Christians who heeded the warning escaped; the [ non-Christian Jews ] who did not heed the warning - did not escape.

In Matthew and Mark, it simply states that there shall be tribulation / affliction. Grammatically, at least, it is general - not specific to any particular group.

In Luke, the word 'this' is a bit more descriptive. From the context of the passage, we can discern that it is referring [ more specifically ] to Jerusalem and the Jews ( Christian and non-Christian ) at that point in time.

Obviously, all three accounts of the same Discourse must be in agreement and conformity to the context of that Discourse.

( My Olivet Discourse chart is arranged in rows based on this. )

This "associates" the Abomination of Desolation ( Matthew and Mark accounts ) with the Desolation of Jerusalem ( Luke account ).

Also, Luke 21:24 indicates ( to me ) that "the times of the Gentiles" is more likely to be a long period of time - rather than a short one. Otherwise, how is it that - at some time in the future - the Jews will be "led away captive into all nations" - and then "returned" in time for Armageddon - in a short period of time? What is the shortest period of time that this scenario is likely to occur?

Also, I believe:

~ 'the times of the Jews' ended at the end of the '70th week of Daniel'. ( Which was [ about ] 3.5 years after the crucifixion of Christ. )

I know that other folks may believe something different. I stand on this belief because I firmly believe that scripture supports it.

~ 'the times of the Gentiles' began when 'the times of the Jews' ended.

Has Jerusalem not been "trodden down of the Gentiles" for the past ~2000 years?

~ We are still in 'the times of the Gentiles'.

Who can deny that we are in 'the times of the Gentiles'? And, on what basis?

And if we are not - what defines the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles' - in a way such that we know that we are not in it yet?

Also, how does this compare to history?

Well --- Luke 21:20-24 does describe the events of [ circa ] 70 A.D. quite remarkably - does it not?

My conclusion is that --- the Great Tribulation is "aimed" at Christians; however, "certain parts of it" more specifically "fell on" Jews -- namely, the events circa 70 A.D.

It has "plagued" both Christians and Jews ever since it started...

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

What is the shortest period of time that this scenario is likely to occur?

What is the shortest period of time within which this scenario is likely to occur?

 

[GaryA]

Christianity began rough with Christians enduring great hardship throughout the apostolic and post apostolic periods. Nero obviously was very hard on Christians and both Peter and Paul were killed in Rome prior to the AD 70 events. Roman persecutions of Christians ended in 311 AD by decree of Constantine and Christian persecution world wide diminished for quite some time.

"Fell for that one, did you?"

Perhaps you are unaware that the persecution of Christians actually "ramped up" ( severely ) after Constantine...

The Holy Roman Empire persecuted, tortured, and killed Christians in horrific ways for hundreds of years. ( i.e., the 'Dark Ages' )

EDIT: To date -- this was the most terrible "tribulation" of Christiandom in its entire history so far --- including the "early days", in my opinion...

 

[valiant]

LOL. You guys rocked for centuries until we came along. .

lol you didn't come along. we founded you