Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"
- Thread starter Preacher
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
What do you mean BOTH? How can plain ordinary H20 cleanse us on the inside? In John 4:10, Jesus mentions LIVING WATER. In John 4:14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects this water that we drink of with everlasting life and refers to it as LIVING WATER, not His shed water or water baptism. Those who give credit to water baptism for cleansing and receiving everlasting life never seem to mention this LIVING WATER in John 4:14 and John 7:38. I once heard a Roman Catholic say that plain ordinary H20 during baptism is transformed into LIVING WATER, just like he believes the bread and wine during the Mass is transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation).
What do you mean BOTH? How can plain ordinary H20 cleanse us on the inside? In John 4:10, Jesus mentions LIVING WATER. In John 4:14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects this water that we drink of with everlasting life and refers to it as LIVING WATER, not His shed water or water baptism. Those who give credit to water baptism for cleansing and receiving everlasting life never seem to mention this LIVING WATER in John 4:14 and John 7:38. I once heard a Roman Catholic say that plain ordinary H20 during baptism is transformed into LIVING WATER, just like he believes the bread and wine during the Mass is transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation).
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Yes, in Acts 3:19, we read - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? I'm not seeing repentance and baptism as the two conditions laid down for the forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit throughout the book of Acts as we follow the trail of conversions, but I see repentance/faith.
That interpretation of Acts 2:38 is not in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11;17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 so something has to give because there are no contradictions in the Word of God.
This is where we need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture to find out what the correct pattern is. My conclusion is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* We see this throughout the book of Acts:
Please explain to me why we don't see a pattern of "repentance and baptism" or "faith and baptism" as being the two conditions for receiving the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit throughout the book of Acts.
Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."
Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 16:31 - So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
Yes, in Acts 3:19, we read - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? I'm not seeing repentance and baptism as the two conditions laid down for the forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit throughout the book of Acts as we follow the trail of conversions, but I see repentance/faith.
That interpretation of Acts 2:38 is not in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11;17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 so something has to give because there are no contradictions in the Word of God.
This is where we need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture to find out what the correct pattern is. My conclusion is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* We see this throughout the book of Acts:
Please explain to me why we don't see a pattern of "repentance and baptism" or "faith and baptism" as being the two conditions for receiving the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit throughout the book of Acts.
Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."
Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 16:31 - So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
It's not the water itself BUT BY FAITH. The water in baptism REPRESENTS the shed water of Jesus death. Baptism is saying we are IN AGREEMENT that it is BY Jesus death that we saved and CLEANSED. Baptism is a PICTURE of submitting to that cleansing. That cleansing takes place AT THE SAME time as we are being baptized in H2O.
It's not the water itself BUT BY FAITH. The water in baptism REPRESENTS the shed water of Jesus death. Baptism is saying we are IN AGREEMENT that it is BY Jesus death that we saved and CLEANSED. Baptism is a PICTURE of submitting to that cleansing. That cleansing takes place AT THE SAME time as we are being baptized in H2O.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Faith in Jesus Christ or faith in baptism?
We are saved through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26) and this is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in the waters of baptism. What actually cleanses us on the inside? What does DRINKS/WATER/LIVING WATER/EVERLASTING LIFE mean to you in John 4:10,14?
Yes, a PICTURE, but not the reality.
Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 doesn't say this took place at the same time. What literally cleanses us on the inside? Living water or H20?
Faith in Jesus Christ or faith in baptism?
We are saved through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26) and this is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in the waters of baptism. What actually cleanses us on the inside? What does DRINKS/WATER/LIVING WATER/EVERLASTING LIFE mean to you in John 4:10,14?
Yes, a PICTURE, but not the reality.
Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 doesn't say this took place at the same time. What literally cleanses us on the inside? Living water or H20?
B
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
This distortion of water baptism in relationship to the remission of sins takes so much away from the heart believing unto righteousness by faith for salvation and the forgiveness of sins, which is being pardoned along with the remission of the penalty or to simply put it 'justification'. It is through the death. burial and resurrection and the blood of Christ that a man is justified, forgiven, cleansed and remitted of sin and its penalty and these acts of righteousness from God are freely given and administered to those who believe. Water baptism has nothing to do with these acts or imputations from God. We are baptized by immersion to identify with the putting away of the old life of the flesh and taking on the new by being raised up in the newness of life in the name of Christ.
There are some that believe and teach that water baptism is not needed, that it was for the early church, but I am of the conviction that it is a simply requirement of our faith, commanded by our Lord, and in doing so we also fulfill God's righteousness. It is more than a symbol but an act of obedience that we partake of with the understanding that we have been called out of this world are now a part of the family and kingdom of God's dear Son.
This distortion of water baptism in relationship to the remission of sins takes so much away from the heart believing unto righteousness by faith for salvation and the forgiveness of sins, which is being pardoned along with the remission of the penalty or to simply put it 'justification'. It is through the death. burial and resurrection and the blood of Christ that a man is justified, forgiven, cleansed and remitted of sin and its penalty and these acts of righteousness from God are freely given and administered to those who believe. Water baptism has nothing to do with these acts or imputations from God. We are baptized by immersion to identify with the putting away of the old life of the flesh and taking on the new by being raised up in the newness of life in the name of Christ.
There are some that believe and teach that water baptism is not needed, that it was for the early church, but I am of the conviction that it is a simply requirement of our faith, commanded by our Lord, and in doing so we also fulfill God's righteousness. It is more than a symbol but an act of obedience that we partake of with the understanding that we have been called out of this world are now a part of the family and kingdom of God's dear Son.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
What have I said since the beginning? Did I not say that baptism is the FIRST STEP AND ACT OF FAITH and then when we step out and act in FAITH,God then acts and does when we response IN FAITH?
It is the shed WATER of Jesus that cleanses us. It is by faith we receive it,and we received in baptism.
Yet you leave OUT places such as Acts 2 and Acts that SAYS otherwise.
Acts 22
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 22
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
What have I said since the beginning? Did I not say that baptism is the FIRST STEP AND ACT OF FAITH and then when we step out and act in FAITH,God then acts and does when we response IN FAITH?
It is the shed WATER of Jesus that cleanses us. It is by faith we receive it,and we received in baptism.
Yet you leave OUT places such as Acts 2 and Acts that SAYS otherwise.
Acts 22
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 22
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
So you admit that FAITH in Christ is "already established prior to stepping out and performing an act of faith," a work that follows faith? All good works are an act of faith, but not faith itself. Did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8 that we have been saved by stepping out and performing an act of faith, a work, or through FAITH? There is a difference.
The literal shed water of Jesus? Do you believe this water has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism? I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we contact the shed blood of Christ in baptism, but I have not heard them say we contact the shed water. Do you attend the church of Christ? So what do you do with these verses in Scripture that connect LIVING WATER with everlasting life? John 4:10,14; 7:37-38.
On the surface, they only "appear" to say otherwise. Scripture must harmonize with Scripture.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (PRIOR TO WATER BAPTISM) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*
The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name" (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way. Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Our sins are already washed away by the blood of Christ and we are saved when we repent/believe/call upon the name of the Lord (Acts 3:19; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-26; 10:13) BEFORE water baptism. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior prior to receiving water baptism since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.
*No single text of scripture is to be interpreted out of context, and this includes the entirety of scripture. No scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
So you admit that FAITH in Christ is "already established prior to stepping out and performing an act of faith," a work that follows faith? All good works are an act of faith, but not faith itself. Did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8 that we have been saved by stepping out and performing an act of faith, a work, or through FAITH? There is a difference.
The literal shed water of Jesus? Do you believe this water has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism? I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that we contact the shed blood of Christ in baptism, but I have not heard them say we contact the shed water. Do you attend the church of Christ? So what do you do with these verses in Scripture that connect LIVING WATER with everlasting life? John 4:10,14; 7:37-38.
On the surface, they only "appear" to say otherwise. Scripture must harmonize with Scripture.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (PRIOR TO WATER BAPTISM) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*
The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name" (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way. Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Our sins are already washed away by the blood of Christ and we are saved when we repent/believe/call upon the name of the Lord (Acts 3:19; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-26; 10:13) BEFORE water baptism. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior prior to receiving water baptism since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.
*No single text of scripture is to be interpreted out of context, and this includes the entirety of scripture. No scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Yes, repentance/belief. Repent (Strongs #3340: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind) precedes saving belief in Christ:
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 21:20 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, repentance/belief. Repent (Strongs #3340: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind) precedes saving belief in Christ:
Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.
Acts 21:20 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Absolutely. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply "BELIEVE". Repent does not always have to be spelled out with belief/faith. It is already implied or assumed because repentance and belief/faith are inseparable in receiving salvation. Where you have one, you have the other. If you truly repented then you believe. If you truly believe then you already repented. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED.
Absolutely. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply "BELIEVE". Repent does not always have to be spelled out with belief/faith. It is already implied or assumed because repentance and belief/faith are inseparable in receiving salvation. Where you have one, you have the other. If you truly repented then you believe. If you truly believe then you already repented. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Where did I say baptism in and of itself saves? I have never said that. Baptism is a WASHING that is how scripture describes it. That cleansing takes place WHEN we are baptized. And that is BY FAITH.
I am not COC. I was brought up LCMS. Where did I say that the waters in baptism are THE ACTUAL shed water of Jesus? I never said that either. Again baptism is PICTURE and it's of us agreeing with God that we need a savior and we need to be cleansed of our sins BY HIS DEATH. There is no more magical properties in the waters of baptism then is in a bronze snake. It was their FAITH in what God said,and when they did do what God said they were healed.
Trying to use passages that are not talking about baptism can NOT be use to show whether or not God does or does use baptism as a washing. Those passages are talking about the Holy Spirit,but there are NOT talking about baptism.
That is true scripture must harmonize with scripture BUT IT THE WHOLE counsel of God and NOT verses CHERRY PICKED out of context,nor to use unrelated passages that have nothing to do with the subject.
Isolated passages of scripture TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT can be used to PROVE anything,but again that is NOT the whole of God on a subject.
Which is what you said here,which is the very thing that you are doing when leave OUT all the passages that show that baptism IS NOT JUST A DO NOTHING,CEREMONY DONE JUST FOR SHOW. Which is what many of you are saying baptism is.
Where did I say baptism in and of itself saves? I have never said that. Baptism is a WASHING that is how scripture describes it. That cleansing takes place WHEN we are baptized. And that is BY FAITH.
I am not COC. I was brought up LCMS. Where did I say that the waters in baptism are THE ACTUAL shed water of Jesus? I never said that either. Again baptism is PICTURE and it's of us agreeing with God that we need a savior and we need to be cleansed of our sins BY HIS DEATH. There is no more magical properties in the waters of baptism then is in a bronze snake. It was their FAITH in what God said,and when they did do what God said they were healed.
Trying to use passages that are not talking about baptism can NOT be use to show whether or not God does or does use baptism as a washing. Those passages are talking about the Holy Spirit,but there are NOT talking about baptism.
That is true scripture must harmonize with scripture BUT IT THE WHOLE counsel of God and NOT verses CHERRY PICKED out of context,nor to use unrelated passages that have nothing to do with the subject.
Isolated passages of scripture TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT can be used to PROVE anything,but again that is NOT the whole of God on a subject.
Which is what you said here,which is the very thing that you are doing when leave OUT all the passages that show that baptism IS NOT JUST A DO NOTHING,CEREMONY DONE JUST FOR SHOW. Which is what many of you are saying baptism is.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Well, let's take a look at this line of reasoning and see if it hold up. Looking at all of the conversion examples in Acts we see that belief is mentioned in 10 of those examples and repentance is mentioned in 4 of those examples. Confession is only mentioned in three of them and baptism is mentioned in nine. If determination is based on whether or not an element is mentioned, then this pattern would suggest that none of them are requisite for salvation because there is not one passage of scripture where all of them appear.
Well, let's take a look at this line of reasoning and see if it hold up. Looking at all of the conversion examples in Acts we see that belief is mentioned in 10 of those examples and repentance is mentioned in 4 of those examples. Confession is only mentioned in three of them and baptism is mentioned in nine. If determination is based on whether or not an element is mentioned, then this pattern would suggest that none of them are requisite for salvation because there is not one passage of scripture where all of them appear.
Last edited:
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
But if I go by your reasoning then do I have to obey God and Jesus to be saved? To obey Him is not in all of the passages either. Yet Jesus plainly says this here
John 14
[SUP]15[/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [SUP]24[/SUP]Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“All this I have spoken while still with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, [SUP]31 [/SUP]but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
In that Jesus very clearly says that loving Him and Obeying Him go hand in hand. Jesus even says it both ways both positively and negatively. And even in the gospels it is NOT in every single verse yet it is still there and we can't ignore it.
But if I go by your reasoning then do I have to obey God and Jesus to be saved? To obey Him is not in all of the passages either. Yet Jesus plainly says this here
John 14
[SUP]15[/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [SUP]24[/SUP]Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“All this I have spoken while still with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, [SUP]31 [/SUP]but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
In that Jesus very clearly says that loving Him and Obeying Him go hand in hand. Jesus even says it both ways both positively and negatively. And even in the gospels it is NOT in every single verse yet it is still there and we can't ignore it.
