On-Again/Off-Again in my relationship with God, why is this happening?

[cmarieh]

I know that lately there have been many threads talking about repenting from sin. I have always been taught all throughout my childhood into adulthood that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Lord and Savior that the sins they had committed beforehand have been washed away and that the sins they commit afterwards are the ones they need to turn away from (repent). Jason, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Yonah]

Pro 13:10
Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

 

[Jason0047]

I know that lately there have been many threads talking about repenting from sin. I have always been taught all throughout my childhood into adulthood that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Lord and Savior that the sins they had committed beforehand have been washed away and that the sins they commit afterwards are the ones they need to turn away from (repent). Jason, what are your thoughts on this?

When a person accepts Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, they are forgiven of all past sin. Repentance is something one does automaticallly when they accept Christ. They forsake sin. If they continue in the same sins after accepting Christ (and they believe they are saved by a mental acknowledgment that He is the Savior), then something is not right. For if a beleiver sins again (after having accepted Christ), they need to confess and forsake that sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7.

Confession is more for after you have accepted Christ, all be it, a person can confess certain sins when coming to the Lord in some cases. But as a general rule, confessing is for someone who has already accepted Christ and they have sinned (after receiving Him as their Savior). However, forsaking sin is a requirement in both receiving Christ and in choosing to abide in Him or to walk with Him.

 

[cmarieh]

When a person accepts Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, they are forgiven of all past sin. Repentance is something one does automaticallly when they accept Christ. They forsake sin. If they continue in the same sins after accepting Christ (and they believe they are saved by a mental acknowledgment that He is the Savior), then something is not right. For if a beleiver sins again (after having accepted Christ), they need to confess and forsake that sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7.

Confession is more for after you have accepted Christ, all be it, a person can confess certain sins when coming to the Lord in some cases. But as a general rule, confessing is for someone who has already accepted Christ and they sinned (after receiving Him as their Savior). However, forsaking sin is a requirement in both receiving Christ and in choosing to abide in Him or to walk with Him.

It was exactly what I thought and thank You for clarifying it for me. Jason, May God Abundantly Bless You

 

[Jason0047]

It was exactly what I thought and thank You for clarifying it for me.

You are most welcome.

Jason, May God Abundantly Bless You

Thank you so much. I am wishing you nothing but good things from our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[skylove7]

Oh my oh my....we live in a world where some who proclaim wisdom are fools....and some who call themselves silly fools are wise!...Praise you Jesus I love you!
But I must say that to bare witness to some things...is a mere comedy. Lol...oh me oh my! God bless us all! Goodnight!

 

[Hepzibah]

Just to chime in here, would some of you get over debating your theologies just for one moment and see that,there is a brother in need here. Its bloody disgraceful.

Called4Christ

I apologise if you feel that your request for help has ended up in a theological debate that you did not want.

However, there is bound to be some dispute as there are three differing views in response to your problem.

1) We are all like this don't worry, just try harder.

2) You have never been saved

3) This is a common experience for many believers and there is cause for concern but there is an answer to escape the dryness you fall into which will bring you victory over sin.

So it's up to you to choose which is the most hopeful and useful. If you choose the last one, then you could read more traditional holiness writings which interpret Romans 7 to be what you are going through (or heading towards) that is, a spiritual crisis that will lead you to be made holy and pure.

Otherwise you can just ignore the unease you feel regarding your condition but you will find things just gets worse until you stop striving for righteouness.

I think that you will likely ignore the second option as it does not speak to the experience of most believers and I will move that theological debate to a new thread if you wish.

with love and prayers

 

[SarahM777]

I'm thankful for those of you who reminded me that I am not alone, of Christ's love and the forgiveness we can find in Him. I am disappointed that the tone of the thread turned quite negative multiple times. However, I understand that that is likely because of a passion to make sure that what you feel is Truth is spoken. At least, I really hope that's the case and it isn't a matter of being right.

Some of you alluded to beginning my mornings with prayer. I will say nothing against this! These are good ideas. I also have to tell you, however, that I have a closet shelf cluttered with journals I've barely used, and I've yet keep a new year's resolution. (In other words: I'm terrible at establishing habits, but I will certainly put forth effort).

Someone mentioned that I was being quite general about falling away from God periodically. I'm sorry for not being very thorough. The sin I struggle with, the thing that leads me away from God is apathy itself. After the apathy sets in, that is when I end up sinning by physical action.

It's also been suggested that perhaps I have not fully repented or submitted to God. I have felt what I believe to be godly sorrow. Broken, not from a feeling of being 'caught' or a fear of going to hell, but from realizing just how wonderful God is and how ugly my sin, all sin, is. Broken from realizing that God loves me even more than my physical father, and yet I had denied him, was angry at him, and even said hurtful things--and yet he loved me anyway. (I have a pretty awesome dad here on earth, so when I think about God loving me so much more than he does, it's a bit mind blowing).
I feel that I have repented, but as we all know, our emotions aren't always a good measure of things. This is certainly something to pray about.

Thank you again for all of the encouragement, the scriptural resources, and for taking the time to reply with your thoughts on the matter.

Called4Christ,

The key to doing the things that God asks us to do is SO VERY,VERY simple a child can understand it. You have a symptom of the same problem that we ALL HAVE. And that problem is WE DON'T always love in the same manner as He does. We can't produce that love in ourselves. And thank God He never asks us to produce that in ourselves. Our problem is we DON'T ask Him to teach us to love as He first loved us and to work that out in us.

See many of the things they are telling you are good,no doubt about it. But if THE ROOT is not dealt with you will end up right back where you started from,because you are trying to FORCE something that is NOT naturally there. Start asking the Lord to teach you to love as He loves,and as that is produced in you,you can not remain in apathy. Love CAN NOT SIN. And apathy is a sin,but it too can be overcome by LOVE.

 

[Hepzibah]

Skinski


The Bible does teach a maturing but that is in the context of growing in grace and knowledge, not becoming less and less wicked.


I agree. There is no such thing as a gradual sanctification.


The new birth is inclusive of a total transformation of the human heart and it does not leave an individual in a wretched state carnal and sold under sin.


I agree. To be born again is to be saved, and therefore entirely sanctified.


A Christian has been set free from sin, they are not saved and left in bondage.


I agree. Once a believer has become a full Christian, they are released from bondage.


There is no such thing as a wretched Christian whom is carnal and sold under sin. Those who teach that there is are giving people an excuse to keep sinning and they are also undermining the real meaning of repentance.


Now I have to wonder skinski whether you are reading my posts and deliberately twisting my words and because you never answer my questions. A man who is sinless does not treat people in this manner. I have noticed that others on this forum have questioned your claims of being without sin because of your lack of grace when speaking to others. Just like your fat preacher, displaying an obvious lie. And for the record, no I am not at present walking in the state of sinlessness but I have done in the past and know the real thing.


SIN IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


There now, will you remember that?


I have said repeatedly, that believers who are struggling with their sins need to become fully fledged Christians and therefore free from sin. Quoting the scriptures that confirm the state of being without sin as a fully formed Christian are not helping anyone as I agree with them all. I am not disputing them.


I am disputing your's and Jason's claim to sinlessness. And as neither of you will give me a straight answer here, and instead avoid the points I am bringing up I have to start to doubt your integrity. Again, what is sin and are you without bad thoughts?



According to my theology which is not from theologians but based on my own teaching from God, and then confirmed by reading about what others had experienced (the theology came much later) there are two stages which are typical for a believer. Like others who are writing here, I had an up and down walk, became lukewarm and tried and tried to be the sort of Christian I wished to be. But it was all in vain. I had to ask 'is this it? Is this all there is? Where is the blessedness that I have read about in the scriptures?


The answer came to me at last and I was transported to another realm where sin was defeated and I lived in the sermon on the mount where even evil thoughts are gone because the heart has been made pure.


As you say, the Bible is not a book of texts to argue over. Your theology however, is not shown in the types and pictures that we see throughout the scripture as mine is. We have the example of the disciples, before and after Pentecost where they become changed entirely (sanctified). According to your theology they were nothing before Pentecost despite calling Jesus Lord.


Then we have the narrative of the children of Israel, who failed to trust God even though they were His people and had to wander in the wilderness for many years, until the land of promise became visible. The ones who still disbelieved fell.


You are on here proclaiming your sinlessness and judging others harshly, yet you have not shown yourselves to be approved. You are also giving the true holiness teaching a bad name and discouraging others by telling them that they are not Christians at all.

 

[Hepzibah]

So you are not for once saved always saved or a sin and still be saved doctrine? Good. So you believe a saint is supposed to stop in their sinning? Very good. Not sure why you are fighting me on on this point. If you are against those doctrines, then you are in agreement with me. Whatever issue you have with Alan Balou is between you and him. We are talking doctrine here and not somebody's personal life and your judgment of them. For I do not believe being slightly overweight is grounds for God to send someone to Torments and then Gehenna (after the Judgment) to be destroyed. If you do, then you are going to have to show Scripture verse that this is so.

I am not OSAS thank you.

I am contending your view of what sin is and whether you are without it or not. Do you have bad thoughts? Is gluttony not a sin? Stilll no replies.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski

...

Now I have to wonder skinski whether you are reading my posts and deliberately twisting my words and because you never answer my questions. A man who is sinless does not treat people in this manner. I have noticed that others on this forum have questioned your claims of being without sin because of your lack of grace when speaking to others.{/quote]

How is it a lack of grace to contend that that wretched man of Romans 7, whom is carnal and sold under sin, is not a man whom is saved?

Who have I treated in an ungraceful manner? Please present a quote of me doing that.

I have said repeatedly, that believers who are struggling with their sins need to become fully fledged Christians and therefore free from sin. Quoting the scriptures that confirm the state of being without sin as a fully formed Christian are not helping anyone as I agree with them all. I am not disputing them.

The issue is "believers who are struggling with their sins." Those people are not true believers and those people need to be made aware of that. Your advice to them of...

You are in Romans 7 but please ignore those who say that the chapter is about the unsaved man...

... is terrible advice. In that one statement you asserted that the wretch is saved. You soon after stated...

What you need is to pray that you will be delievered by seeing what Christ did on the cross in killing your old nature and be willing to submit yourself entirely to Him.

That is not telling someone that they have to undergo a genuine repentance experience. That is telling someone that they have to...

1. Pray for a future event (future deliverance through sight and submission).
2. Trust that Jesus death killed your old nature and see this in the future.
3. Be willing in the future to submit entirely.

That is not what the Bible teaches. That kind of rhetoric gives one an excuse to keep sinning in the meantime as they wait on God. Why cannot you see that?

I am not being ungraceful by pointing that out. I am actually being graceful because the deception is truly dangerous.

No-one in the Bible went around telling people to pray and wait in the context of deliverance from sin. Instead they contended for hear and do. James taught this...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Your contention that the Romans wretch is actually saved ignores that. Like I asked earlier, what exactly is the Romans wretch saved from? Merely a hardened heart, for they are convicted whilst they continue in sin? Is that what they are saved from?

Salvation is saved FROM sin, not in it (Mat 1:21).

Is that ungraceful to say?

 

[Skinski7]

I am disputing your's and Jason's claim to sinlessness. And as neither of you will give me a straight answer here, and instead avoid the points I am bringing up I have to start to doubt your integrity. Again, what is sin and are you without bad thoughts?

I have answered that question previously. In fact I once linked you to an entire article I wrote on the subject in another thread. Here is the article again...

The Pearl of Great Price: Two Types of Sin

In this very thread I stated...

All your questions are rooted in a foundation of Second Blessing theology. You have to count all that stuff as dung before you can even hope to grasp what I am saying. If you continue to force the traditions of men into the Bible then you will always be confused as to what I am saying.

Sin means "missing the mark" or "not going the correct way." Yet the context of "sin" goes much deeper. The sin that kills is rebellion, not ignorantly missing the mark.

Repentance purges rebellion by destroying the iniquity in the heart of a sinner. Thus it is the willful sin which ceases once and for all for a Christian. We are still tempted for temptation is common to man but we bring our minds into submission to Christ and thus are not drawn away by our natural passions. We bring every thought into submission to God.

Thus we no longer lust after women or entertain sinning in our minds. We are crucified with Christ and we no longer live but He lives in us. This is what Christianity is all about. It is a MANIFEST STATE or an ABIDING WALK.

Wesleyian theology tries to split it into two parts allowing room for "partial obedience" whilst giving people comfort that "total obedience" will come some time later down the track. In other words it is just another disguise for teaching you can sin and not surely die.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...tionship-god-why-happening-2.html#post2041731

Yet you accuse me of ignoring your question on sin?

 

[Skinski7]

According to my theology which is not from theologians but based on my own teaching from God, and then confirmed by reading about what others had experienced (the theology came much later) there are two stages which are typical for a believer.

Your theology is not Biblical. By your own admission you have "your own" theology from what you think is from your own private teaching from God which you then confirmed by reading about others experiences.

There are not two Christian stages consisting of a disobedient stage and then an obedient stage. One is either obedient to God or they are not and the disobedient are not Christians.

One could say there is the stage of "being lost, being under bondage as well as condemnation" and then the stage of "being saved having been set free from bondage as well as condemnation." There is no such thing as carnal Christianity in the context of serving sin. Anyone who yields themselves to sin is a child of the devil and a slave thereof. We are slaves to whom we obey.

Like others who are writing here, I had an up and down walk, became lukewarm and tried and tried to be the sort of Christian I wished to be. But it was all in vain. I had to ask 'is this it? Is this all there is? Where is the blessedness that I have read about in the scriptures?

You had obviously bought into a false Christianity. A false Christianity which leaves one still dead, in bondage to sin, and a worker of iniquity.

The answer came to me at last and I was transported to another realm where sin was defeated and I lived in the sermon on the mount where even evil thoughts are gone because the heart has been made pure.

The answer came to you and you were transported to another realm? How is that Biblical?

That sounds like pure Gnosticism to me, not Christianity.

Jesus preached REPENTANCE FROM SIN. Jesus never preached that some "answer will come and you will be transported to another realm where sin is defeated." This doctrine you speak of is truly you own.

The Bible teaches...

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART to the doctrine of Christ is what sets one free from the service of sin. Sin is defeated in our lives when we REPENT and YIELD to God. Why not contend for what the Bible actually teaches instead of "your own" theology?

Am I being ungraceful by pointing this out?

Paul preached...

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Why don't you contend for that?

Repent means to change ones mind and it necessitates a "turning to God" or YIELDING and such a thing is evidenced by a manifest change in outward action. Hence repentance is proven by deeds.

The Bible says...

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

and...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

There is no "two stage" Christianity in the context of a first carnal stage and then a second non-carnal stage. There is simply REPENT and be CONVERTED and then be RAISED UP by the power of God. Then we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

That is what the Bible teaches and it is clearly laid our for all to see. You are ignoring the plainly obvious in order to contend for your own theology. Don't do that.

 

[Skinski7]

As you say, the Bible is not a book of texts to argue over. Your theology however, is not shown in the types and pictures that we see throughout the scripture as mine is.

Let's see you prove that. Please take a quote from me and demonstrate it as unbiblical.

Peter was speaking to babes in Christ (1Pet 2:2) when he asserted that their hearts were pure...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You ignore that completely.

In your mind that must be the "second stage" of Christianity. Thus you contend for a Christianity where the "new birth" comes later. In the Bible the new birth is central to being a genuine Christian.

Genuine Christians are born again. If one is not born again then they are not a Christian, they need to repent, turn to God and be refreshed in the Spirit. That is what the Bible teaches.

Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation not to be repented of. Yet you contend that the Romans wretch is already saved. How exactly does that work? Godly sorrow working a repentance proven by deeds leaves one carnal and sold under sin? Even though the Bible teaches that obedience to the truth sets us free from sin? Your theology is contradictory which is why you probably won't answer these kinds of questions.

We have the example of the disciples, before and after Pentecost where they become changed entirely (sanctified). According to your theology they were nothing before Pentecost despite calling Jesus Lord.

So you think the Apostles were carnal and sold under sin before Pentecost? You think they were actually inwardly wicked up until that moment? You must think that the Holy Spirit comes and indwells a defiled vessel and then cleanses it. The Bible does not teach that. The Bible teaches that we cleanse ourselves first through repentance and THEN the Holy Spirit comes and empowers us.

Pentecost was a Jewish festival held 50 days after Passover. John the Baptist had preached that the Messiah would Baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire. Pentecost was a witness to the world about the truth of Jesus Christ.

Pentecost had nothing to do with finally making the hearts of the apostles pure. They were already pure. They were already wholeheartedly yielded to God having already died to sin. Pentecost simply empowered them to speak in other tongues and to perform great signs and wonders before an unbelieving nation and world.

You are tying "ceasing from sin" to Pentecost or the reception of the Holy Spirit. Thus I suspect that you believe in "total inability" doctrine. Do you believe in Original Sin doctrine? Arminian/Wesleyian theology is premised on it being true which is why they teach this Second Blessing doctrine. They teach that the stain of Original Sin remains after salvation until it is finally purged at the Second Blessing. It sounds like you believe the same thing? Can you address this issue? Do you believe in Original Sin? Inherited Sin? Being born a sinner?

 

[Skinski7]

Then we have the narrative of the children of Israel, who failed to trust God even though they were His people and had to wander in the wilderness for many years, until the land of promise became visible. The ones who still disbelieved fell.

The wilderness experience is a test of faith, not a purging of iniquity.

The wilderness experience is a growing to maturity whilst enduring in the faith. It is not "sinning less" whilst one "struggles with sin."

Israel was set free in Egypt and delivers through the Red Sea. That is a picture of "obedience to the truth setting one free from the service of sin." The service of sin is not meant to cease in the wilderness, the wilderness is a time of testing and maturation.

Your error serves to give sinners assurance that they can sin and not surely die because deliverance will occur in the future. You are not telling people to "die to sin" are you? You are not telling people to "crucify the flesh" in repentance are you? You are instead telling people that they are experiencing the natural progression of two stage Christianity and that they just have to be patient and wait for it to complete its course. That message is actually a message of death to those who hear it, yet it drips with honey.

You are on here proclaiming your sinlessness and judging others harshly, yet you have not shown yourselves to be approved. You are also giving the true holiness teaching a bad name and discouraging others by telling them that they are not Christians at all.

Is that what you think I am doing? That is a shame that you think that.

This "true holiness teaching" is your own from your own private revelation by your own admission. It is false and dangerous. John Wesley was wrong and Arminian theology is wrong. It is unbiblical error premised on Original Sin being true.

[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

 

[Jason0047]

I am not OSAS thank you.

I am contending your view of what sin is and whether you are without it or not. Do you have bad thoughts? Is gluttony not a sin? Stilll no replies.

Do you still have bad thoughts? Have you sold all your possessions and given them to the poor? Have you had hate in your heart or in the way you behave towards someone lately? I asked you to discuss the Scriptures I brought up before that you didn't reply to. This is a Bible discussion thread. This is not a thread about me. You seem to be more focused on throwing stones or what other people are doing rather than focusing on what the Word of God actually says.

I am concerned with how people in the church today do not have a correct view on repentance. That is the Biblical discussion that ties into helping our friend here. Are you interested in helping our friend here? Or no? Do you realize that helping someone is loving them?

Also, I have mentioned how there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. Do you think somebody who is slightly overweight is commiting a sin that leads to spiritual death (or placing them under the Condemnation whereby they will going to Hell)?

 

[CWJ]

I don't understand what causes me to withdraw from God periodically.
When I say withdraw, I don't just mean that I begin to doubt his existence. I mean that I stop praying, stop feeling conviction for sin, cease contact with christian connections, and cease reading the bible. The strange part is, is that I've never during these periods doubted God's existence or soverignty. So when I do begin to feel a sense of conviction again, I pray, I come back to God and I feel terrible for what I've done, for essentially abusing God's grace.

You know, I know God is our father and he loves us more than we can comprehend, but I also know that God won't be mocked. He is sovereign.I'm almost resigned to the fear that I will someday die while in one of these "off" times of my life. I don't want to keep doing this, and I ask God to please give me the grace to stay faithful.

Yet it happens...

I know that it is sin that separates us from God, but I can't understand what sin it is that's causing this sense of separation. I am not saying that I expect to never sin. I'm not saying that at all. I know the blood of Christ continually washes us from sin, and that he is faithful. So it's not like this post is about me lying, feeling some guilt, and then apologizing. But there's a difference between unintentional sin and continued, outright disobedience, right--- am I making any sense here? (Someone save me from rambling!)

I know God will never forsake us, but I also know that we can, by our own will, separate ourselves from God by sinning and rejecting Christ. However, I don't desire separation from God. I love Him, (even though I'm terrible at showing it)-- I don't want to upset Him, and hell scares the crap out of me, but I don't want to be separated from God forever when I die.
I also believe that part of what allows us to remain faithful is the grace of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it's only by God's grace that I'm able to desire to come to Him at all. How then can I fall so far away when I don't desire to and God does not forsake us?

I'm not trying to insinuate that God is a liar, of course, I'm just not sure what to do...

Hi there,

I can empathize with the thoughts you express here. 'Called4Christ': for we have all felt as you do, and questioned 'Why?'

This little saying helps me:- 'Faith, Hope and Experience were walking along a wall, Hope was fine as long as he kept his eyes on Faith, but when he turned around to look at Experience, he fell off the walk and so did Experience, but Faith went walking on.'

Our confidence is in the finished work of Christ isn't it? Not on our feelings, or our experiences. We are saved, we are sealed, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, NOTHING AT ALL. God never changes, and He sees us in Christ Jesus His Son: whose blood cleanses us from all sin.

When I feel as you express, I stop and remember that my access to God in Christ Jesus is open, and that He is just waiting for me to come to Him and commune with Him. The only one I hurt by not coming into His presence is myself, for I miss out on the joy and peace that only He can give.

In His eyes I am forgiven, redeemed, accepted in the Beloved, Holy and without blame before Him, Complete, and made meet to partake of the inheritance of the saints in light. All because of that finished work. Faith believes it, faith does not look back, or look inward, but looks straight ahead to the Author and Finisher of his faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of God.

Praise His Holy Name!

My life is hid with Christ in God, and when He is manifested in glory, I shall be manifested with Him there. So eyes off self, eyes off experience, just follow Faith.

With love in Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Chris

 

[Skinski7]

When a person accepts Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, they are forgiven of all past sin.

Think about that statement for a moment. "When a person accepts Christ for the forgiveness of sins."

Where is that taught in the Bible? It isn't is it?

This "accepting Jesus" is found in many religious denominations but it is not found in the Bible.

Repentance is something one does automaticallly when they accept Christ.

Does the Bible teach this contention? Repentance is "automatic" upon "accepting Jesus." Where is that or anything like it in the Bible?

They forsake sin.

Now this statement makes me think this might be a semantics issue where you are simply using "popular rhetoric" without really realising its connotations, for a genuine repentance is inclusive of a forsaking of sin. If the sin is not forsaken then no change of mind could have really taken place.

If they continue in the same sins after accepting Christ (and they believe they are saved by a mental acknowledgment that He is the Savior), then something is not right.

Something is indeed not right. Firstly the Bible nowhere teaches that one merely "accepts Jesus" and that "repentance is automatic."

The Bible teaches that godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (2Cor 7:10-11). Verse 11 lists what godly sorrow produces.

In Acts we see this...

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These "hearers" were convicted at the words of Peter. Peter then told them they had to "repent" and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. Baptism is a picture of dying to sin and being raised up to newness of life by the Spirit.

Can you see how this is very different to "accept Jesus" and "repentance is automatic"?

Repentance is the result of a crisis of conviction. It is through this crisis of conviction that our old man (who served sin) is put to death. The iniquity in our hearts is purged completely through this process and thus our vessels are prepared to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

This notion of "accept Jesus" negates this crisis and therefore leads people into a Christianity where they perceive they are saved when in fact nothing really happened. They might change somewhat due to a strong emotional experience and due to being surrounded by people that are more or less moral, yet the root of iniquity was never purged from their hearts, they never truly died to sin. This is why after a time they "cool off" from their perceived conversion experience and thus find themselves in the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle. They are then often given assurance that things will work our in the end because they "trust in Jesus and His finished work."

It is all a very diabolical and insidious deception. It is extremely dangerous and extremely deceptive and it has deceived millions of people.

For if a beleiver sins again (after having accepted Christ), they need to confess and forsake that sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7.

No. This kind of rhetoric plays right into the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle many have been hoodwinked by. 1Joh 1:7-10 is presented in the context of initial cleansing of unrighteousness and sin when one is genuinely converted. John is contending against those who claim to have never sinned and that one's actual walk is not a reflection of their true spiritual state. The Gnostics disconnected the spirit from the flesh in the context that the spirit could be pure whilst the flesh still sinned (because they tied sin to matter). Thus under Gnosticism one could be manifestly sinning but not spiritually sinning. John was refuting that by claiming that the "walk" must match the "profession" and that the blood of Jesus only cleanses the truly repentant individual who has forsaken the corruption that is in the world through lust (via the death of the old man).

1Joh 1:7-10 is about how we initially enter the faith, it is not about ongoing cleansing from ongoing sinning. Compare 1Joh 1:7-10 to Heb 10:19-22.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The issue John is getting at is this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

The issue is not an ongoing cleansing for repeated misconduct. The blood is not for ongoing sin. The blood is for a one time cleansing whereby we are then to endure in the faith till the end. This is why Heb 10:26-29 states categorically that there is no sacrifice remaining if we willfully sin after having been sanctified by the blood. The blood of Jesus is not a get out of jail free card to be used over and over, such an attitude is to despise and treat grace with contempt.

Generally, modern theologians cannot comprehend this because they believe in the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle and thus, by necessity, they do not believe in genuine heart purity as being connected to the salvation experience.

Confession is more for after you have accepted Christ, all be it, a person can confess certain sins when coming to the Lord in some cases.

Confession after being reconciled is only for sins of ignorance. Willful sin is a completely different matter and one would have to find godly sorrow that works a genuine repentance again and such a thing is not something easy. To willfully sin from a state of full knowledge is extremely dangerous to the soul and any believer who falls and does this is in a more dangerous position than they were in when originally lost. Peter warns strongly against doing something like this.

Most conversions today are false and thus very few people can do this for they were never truly sanctified by the blood in the first place. There old man was never crucified and they never truly died to sin, they just entered into a delusion of false assurance which naturally leads into the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent cycle. This is why the warning of Heb 10:26-29 does not apply to most professing Christians.

Please reflect on these things. The deception today is mind boggling in how it works.

But as a general rule, confessing is for someone who has already accepted Christ and they have sinned (after receiving Him as their Savior).

Again you are reading modern theological rhetoric into 1Joh 1:7-10 and not seeing it for what John is actually teaching. Please try and grasp this as I know it can be difficult. We are constantly barraged with the rhetoric and slogans of the lie and it is very hard to extricate ourselves from it. This is why we have to be so diligent in examining EVERYTHING we hold to be true. The deception taught in the churches has turned the Bible upside down and twisted it to a fine degree, Satan is a master theologian and his deception is very elaborate in how it works on the human mind.

However, forsaking sin is a requirement in both receiving Christ and in choosing to abide in Him or to walk with Him.

You have this part correct. You can see this which is great.

Forsaking sin is indeed the requirement for this. James tells us...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

One cannot receive the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ inwardly lest they forsake all known evil. It is obedience to the truth from the heart which sets us free from sin and it is being obedient that the Spirit indwells us and we are thus purified.

The modern deception is premised on the doctrine of Original Sin which really means "sin you will and sin you must."

"Sin you will and sin you must" is then read into passages like Rom 7:14-28 and 1Joh 1:8-9 for they can easily be twisted into proof tests and proclaimed to the ignorant who then repeat the lie without examining it.

Please think on these things for it seems you are on the right track.

 

[kodiak]

When a person accepts Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, they are forgiven of all past sin. Repentance is something one does automaticallly when they accept Christ. They forsake sin. If they continue in the same sins after accepting Christ (and they believe they are saved by a mental acknowledgment that He is the Savior), then something is not right. For if a beleiver sins again (after having accepted Christ), they need to confess and forsake that sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7.

Confession is more for after you have accepted Christ, all be it, a person can confess certain sins when coming to the Lord in some cases. But as a general rule, confessing is for someone who has already accepted Christ and they have sinned (after receiving Him as their Savior). However, forsaking sin is a requirement in both receiving Christ and in choosing to abide in Him or to walk with Him.

Jason, the way you word things confuses me. What do you think about this?
John 6:39 and John 8:29
John 10:27-28
Hebrews 13:5
1John 2:19
These verses show that if you truly believe, you will not lose your Salvation. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian truly is, sadly.
1 John 2:4
This does not give us the right to willfully sin, but if you truly believe, your actions will show this. You will not keep trying to sin.....but if you do stumble, you will truly be repentant that you sinned

 

[Skinski7]

Jason, please read my whole post and think on it. You say a lot of very true things, I think it is just coloured with some of the rhetoric from the modern lie. I think you use this rhetoric unwittingly for you seem pretty clear in saying the sin (willful) has to stop.