If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus 2:11

[mailmandan]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

So one must FIRST do the work of believing then he can receive God's free gift of everlasting life.

John 6:29 - This is the work of God (this is what God requires) that you believe in Him whom He has sent. Jesus is not saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Jesus did not give a list of condition(s) but a condition in John 6:29, in an answer to the Jews who wanted to know what shall they do that they might work the works (plural) of God. You sound just like them, seeking salvation by works.

Jn 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which the Son of man shall GIVES.

In John 6:27, we labor (work) for the meat (food) which does not perish. What is this meat? In (John 6:55), we see "For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood (John 6:53-56) metaphorically symbolizes the need for accepting Christ's finished work on the cross as the only means of our salvation through faith (John 6:47). The people who Jesus had just explained to labor for the meat which does not perish in (John 6:27), then asked Him in verse 28, What shall we do, that we might work the works (plural) of God? They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works. Sound familiar? But Jesus answers: "The work (singular) of God is that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent" (John 6:29). Strive or labor in order to come to FAITH in Christ for salvation involves a great struggle against conflict. You seem to still be in this process as you refuse to let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

Jesus says He GIVES everlasting life so it's free yet why would he say to WORK for what He gives for free?

Jesus explains what He meant by work and it's not salvation by works, as you perceive it. What did Paul say in Romans 4:5? But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Because that free gift of everlasting life comes with conditions, as the work of believing, yet meeting this condition cannot earn Christ's free gift but one cannot receive the free gift unless he first works to meet the conditions.

Is it the work of believing (condition) or works (conditions)? Make up your mind. Paul tells us how we receive the free gift of eternal life in Ephesians 2:8,9.

Just like I cannot receive the free gift (hamburger) unless I first do the works of going to the restaurant and placing the order.

Faulty human logic. Jesus freely offers the gift of eternal life without us having to go to a restaurant and order it. You use faulty human logic in order to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe does not fit.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Still Naaman received healing from leprosy, NOT THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE after he dipped. God did not attach dipping to His grace in Ephesians 2:8,9 or in Romans 5:2. Saved by grace through FAITH/We receive access by FAITH into grace, not by works, not by dipping, not by jumping through hoops.

What is over looked is that Naaman's healing was a free gift of grace that came with a condition and Naaman meeting the condition did not earn him the free gift.

As God attached the condition of dipping to His free gift of grace to Naaman, likewise God has attached conditions (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) to his free gift of salvation and meeting those conditions no more earns that free gift than Naaman's dipping earned him the free gift offered to him.

The unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins will never be saved in that state, unless and until he meets those conditions, jumps through those hoops, God has placed upon his free gift. If Naaman had faith only, that would have caused him to fall short of God's free gift of healing as it causes one to fall short of God's free gift of salvation.


No one here as yet find a way to get Naaman healed BEFORE he dipped as no one can find a way to get a man saved BEFORE he believes, repents, confesses and baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

John 6:29 - This is the work of God (this is what God requires) that you believe in Him whom He has sent. Jesus is not saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Jesus did not give a list of condition(s) but a condition in John 6:29, in an answer to the Jews who wanted to know what shall they do that they might work the works (plural) of God. You sound just like them, seeking salvation by works.

In John 6:27, we labor (work) for the meat (food) which does not perish. What is this meat? In (John 6:55), we see "For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood (John 6:53-56) metaphorically symbolizes the need for accepting Christ's finished work on the cross as the only means of our salvation through faith (John 6:47). The people who Jesus had just explained to labor for the meat which does not perish in (John 6:27), then asked Him in verse 28, What shall we do, that we might work the works (plural) of God? They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works. Sound familiar? But Jesus answers: "The work (singular) of God is that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent" (John 6:29). Strive or labor in order to come to FAITH in Christ for salvation involves a great struggle against conflict. You seem to still be in this process as you refuse to let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

Jesus explains what He meant by work and it's not salvation by works, as you perceive it. What did Paul say in Romans 4:5? But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Is it the work of believing (condition) or works (conditions)? Make up your mind. Paul tells us how we receive the free gift of eternal life in Ephesians 2:8,9.

Faulty human logic. Jesus freely offers the gift of eternal life without us having to go to a restaurant and order it. You use faulty human logic in order to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe does not fit.

Jn 6:27 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
JEsus did not tell them to do nothing, or do not works less you try and earn everlasting life but Jesus gave them a work to do , the work of believing and He gave them this owrk for he has just said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlastin glife.

Jesus - "work"
mailmandan - "no works"

Now why should myself, or anyone else, listen to mailmandan over Christ when mailmandan keeps saying the exact opposite of what Christ said?

You posted "They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works.."

The passage does not even remotely say this.


Again:
Jesus ALREADY told them to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. No work = no meat = no everlasting life.


When they asked Jesus "what shall WE DO" J
Jesus responeded by giving them a work, the work of believing.
Mailmandan would have told them do no works.

Again, you are 100% opposite with Christ.

You post "Jesus explains what He meant by work and it's not salvation by works, "
Jesus told them to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

Again 100% opposite of Christ.

You then post " Romans 4:5? But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him

Jesus just called belief a work in Jn 6:27-29, therefore "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 CANNOT mean and include the work of believing else you create a contradiction. You have Paul saying "to him that does not do the work of believing but believes on Him."
It has been explained too many times that 'worketh not' refers to works of merit that one does to try and make his reward of debt and not of grace, (verse 4) and does not refer to obedient works of God as believing.


Seabass posted "Just like I cannot receive the free gift (hamburger) unless I first do the works of going to the restaurant and placing the order.

You call that 'faulty human logic". Incredible.

You are PURPOSELY trying to avoid the fact the free offer of the hamburger requires work in going to the restaurant and ordering yet those works DO NOT earn the free gift as just as the works in belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism DO NOT earn God's offer of the free gift of salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

What is over looked is that Naaman's healing was a free gift of grace that came with a condition and Naaman meeting the condition did not earn him the free gift.

That was not overlooked at all. What you overlooked is that Naaman received healing from leprosy (not the gift of eternal life) when he dipped in the Jordan.

As God attached the condition of dipping to His free gift of grace to Naaman,

God attached dipping in the Jordan in this situation in the OT in order for Naaman to be healed from leprosy. But what about this man in the NT who had leprosy? - Luke 5:12 And it happened when He was in a certain city, that behold, a man who was full of leprosy saw Jesus; and he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." 13 Then He put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately the leprosy left him. *What happened to dipping here? Your flawed logic is inconsistent.

likewise God has attached conditions (belief, repentance, confession and baptism) to his free gift of salvation and meeting those conditions no more earns that free gift than Naaman's dipping earned him the free gift offered to him.

Sugar coated double talk. Romans 6:23 - ..the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. *Not through dipping, not by works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Your 4 step flawed plan of salvation that equates to mere "mental assent" belief (no different than the belief of demons) + self reformation + reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check of steps/lip service confession + water baptism does not equal salvation. Your faulty human logic misses the mark. Repentance precedes saving belief/faith in Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21), but you reverse the scriptural order. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism follows saving belief/faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.

The unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins will never be saved in that state, unless and until he meets those conditions, jumps through those hoops, God has placed upon his free gift.

Jumping through your hoops of "water and works" salvation does not lead to forgiveness of sins. Your false gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics. *When will you BELIEVE?

If Naaman had faith only, that would have caused him to fall short of God's free gift of healing as it causes one to fall short of God's free gift of salvation.

Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman did not receive salvation so your whole argument about salvation by dipping/water baptism has been shipwrecked.

No one here as yet find a way to get Naaman healed BEFORE he dipped as no one can find a way to get a man saved BEFORE he believes, repents, confesses and baptized.

A man is not saved until he repents and believes the gospel. If we don't repent then we won't believe. If we believe then we already repented. Confession with our mouth and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart "TOGETHER" (that is, the word of faith which we preach). A man is saved BEFORE water baptism. Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins...vs. 45 - the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" So once again, mere "mental assent" belief (that falls short of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation) + self reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Jn 6:27 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
JEsus did not tell them to do nothing,

I never said that Jesus said to do nothing. Jesus said, "this is the work of God/this is what God requires (not these are the works of God) that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Plain and simple, but you refuse to BELIEVE in Him.

or do not works less you try and earn everlasting life but Jesus gave them a work to do, the work of believing and He gave them this owrk for he has just said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlastin glife.

Jesus did not contradict Himself and was not teaching salvation by works.

Jesus - "work"
mailmandan - "no works"

Jesus - work of God/what God requires/believe in Him

SeaBass - no believing in Him/salvation by works

Paul - Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

SeaBass - But to him who works and does not believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, his works are accounted for righteousness.

Now why should myself, or anyone else, listen to mailmandan over Christ when mailmandan keeps saying the exact opposite of what Christ said?

That statement is the epitome of irony and you are not fooling anyone but yourself and other unbelievers.

You posted "

They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works.."

The passage does not even remotely say this.

Are you really that blind? John 6:28 - "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? They said nothing about works in this verse, right? Open your eyes.

Again:
Jesus ALREADY told them to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. No work = no meat = no everlasting life.

And you misinterpreted what Jesus said. All you know is salvation BY WORKS so the word "work" here was quick to tickle your ears. Jesus already said what He meant by "work of God" in John 6:29 - "Believe in Him."

When they asked Jesus "

what shall WE DO" J
Jesus responeded by giving them a work, the work of believing.
Mailmandan would have told them do no works.

100% false. Mailmandan would have told them the exact same thing that Jesus told them. Believe in Him. SeaBass would have called that faith only and said, these are the works (plural) that you must accomplish in order to be saved by works.

Again, you are 100% opposite with Christ.

More irony. You should be a comedian.

You post "

Jesus explains what He meant by work and it's not salvation by works, "
Jesus told them to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

Again, in John 6:27, we labor (work) for the meat (food) which does not perish. What is this meat? In (John 6:55), we see "For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood (John 6:53-56) metaphorically symbolizes the need for accepting Christ's finished work on the cross as the only means of our salvation through faith (John 6:47). The people who Jesus had just explained to labor for the meat which does not perish in (John 6:27), then asked Him in verse 28, What shall we do, that we might work the works (plural) of God? They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works. Sound familiar? But Jesus answers: "The work (singular) of God is that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent" (John 6:29). Strive or labor in order to come to FAITH in Christ for salvation involves a great struggle against conflict. You seem to still be in this process as you refuse to let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH. *The natural is spiritually discerned and will not understand this.

Again 100% opposite of Christ.

Your interpretation is 100% opposite of Christ.

You then post "

Romans 4:5? But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him

You like to ignore Romans 4:5.

Jesus just called belief a work in Jn 6:27-29, therefore "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 CANNOT mean and include the work of believing else you create a contradiction. You have Paul saying "to him that does not do the work of believing but believes on Him."

Jesus said "this is the work of God/this is what God requires" that you believe in Him.. That is not the same thing as calling faith a work just like any other work. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. If faith is just another work like any other work, then we have a contradiction in Ephesians 2:8,9 - saved through faith, not works. *Note the distinction between faith and works.

It has been explained too many times that 'worketh not' refers to works of merit that one does to try and make his reward of debt and not of grace, (verse 4) and does not refer to obedient works of God as believing.

Of course "worketh not" does not refer to believes on Him, but it does refer to any works/performance/accomplishments that would be added to believing by which we would then merit eternal life (at least in part). Either our faith is trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost.

Seabass posted "Just like I cannot receive the free gift (hamburger) unless I first do the works of going to the restaurant and placing the order.

You call that 'faulty human logic". Incredible.

Yes it is. Jesus did not ask us to place our order. Jesus offers us the free gift of eternal life. We either accept it through faith or reject it by unbelief. You are trying to order a different plan of salvation.

You are PURPOSELY trying to avoid the fact the free offer of the hamburger requires work in going to the restaurant and ordering yet those works DO NOT earn the free gift as just as the works in belief repentance confession and submitting to baptism DO NOT earn God's offer of the free gift of salvation.

Changing our mind (repentance) and believing the gospel (the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart) does not earn God's free gift of salvation. Submitting to baptism comes after we place our faith in Christ for salvation and are saved. If we are still lost through faith in Christ until we are water baptized, then we help merit the free gift by getting baptized. Also in a different post you said that good works "maintain" our salvation. More merit. Your so-called free gift is not free after all, but depends on our works/performance/accomplishments.

 

[pwrnJC]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Yes, salvation is solely by GOD's grace and all SAVED people can proudly claim that...so what is the issue? IT seems like you want GOD to force Himself upon all peoples, making them robotic and instantly saved at some point in their lives. This is not the heavenly FAther's idea at all. HE wants us, as children, to willingly come to HIM and embrace His love for ourselves. GOD is a perfect gentleman. HE stands waiting, has sacrificed His own SON, JESUS for our sakes, and is giving the Holy Spirit as our Comforter...the gift of salvation awaits every soul. Salvation does appear to all men......but ALL MEN do not want it.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

1. If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11)?

Not all has accepted God in there lives. Its down to the individual choice. It is by grace we are saved. but untill you personally accept it. then you will see the reason why people are not saved.

 

[Utah]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

How can the burger joint take my order if I do not do the works in going to the burger joint and placing the order?

If I do the works in going to the burger joint and placing the order, does that mean I earned the free meal?

When you go to a burger joint you have faith going there that they will have food for you.

Its not works, its faith!!!

 

[Jeff_56]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

satan hates works.

satan hates faith.

satan hates everyone.

i think this is easily seen in GOD'S WORD.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

That was not overlooked at all. What you overlooked is that Naaman received healing from leprosy (not the gift of eternal life) when he dipped in the Jordan.

God attached dipping in the Jordan in this situation in the OT in order for Naaman to be healed from leprosy. But what about this man in the NT who had leprosy? - Luke 5:12 And it happened when He was in a certain city, that behold, a man who was full of leprosy saw Jesus; and he fell on his face and implored Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." 13 Then He put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately the leprosy left him. *What happened to dipping here? Your flawed logic is inconsistent.

Sugar coated double talk. Romans 6:23 - ..the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. *Not through dipping, not by works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Your 4 step flawed plan of salvation that equates to mere "mental assent" belief (no different than the belief of demons) + self reformation + reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check of steps/lip service confession + water baptism does not equal salvation. Your faulty human logic misses the mark. Repentance precedes saving belief/faith in Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21), but you reverse the scriptural order. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism follows saving belief/faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.

Jumping through your hoops of "water and works" salvation does not lead to forgiveness of sins. Your false gospel is the result of poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics. *When will you BELIEVE?

Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman did not receive salvation so your whole argument about salvation by dipping/water baptism has been shipwrecked.

A man is not saved until he repents and believes the gospel. If we don't repent then we won't believe. If we believe then we already repented. Confession with our mouth and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart "TOGETHER" (that is, the word of faith which we preach). A man is saved BEFORE water baptism. Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins...vs. 45 - the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" So once again, mere "mental assent" belief (that falls short of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation) + self reformation + lip service confession + water baptism does not = salvation.

The facts are:
1) God's grace required the condition of dipping
2) Naaman did the work of dipping
3) he received God's free gift of grace in having his diseased healed

What is overlooked and will continue to be overlooked by some is:

1) God's grace was conditional
2) the condition had to be met before reception of the gift could be had
3) meeting the condition did not, could not earn the free gift.


The case in Lk 5:12 does not change, undo or contradict Naaman's case so you still have your problem.


In Lk 5:12, Jesus conditionally require him to have faith before he would heal. Compare to the case in Matthew 9:

Mt 9:22 "And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us."
Mt 9:23 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

In v22 the man said to Jesus "if thou canst do any thing" - the man lacked faith in Christ. In v23 Jesus is telling the man that healing this child is not something Christ will do alone, but it will also conditionally require that man's faith. (This also is a good analogy against the idea that salvation is by Christ alone, but Christ conditionally requires obedience (Heb 5:9) (obedience in belief repentance, confession, baptism) upon the part of man to save man.)


Compare what each man said:
The man in Luke 5 said " Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean".
The man in Matt 9 said " but if thou canst do any thing"

The man in Lk 5 already conditionally already had faith where the man in Mt 9 did not.


You cannot get anyone saved that does not jump through the "hoops" of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins. You'll never get the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins saved while in that state. Your argument is dead but you will keep arguing just for the sake of arguing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

How can the burger joint take my order if I do not do the works in going to the burger joint and placing the order?

If I do the works in going to the burger joint and placing the order, does that mean I earned the free meal?

yes it does. You earned it by doing to the work to go get it. The only way it would not be earned is if they brought it to you and offered it to you, and gave you the choice to say yes I want it, or no I do not.

We do not earn salvation, because God brings the gift to us, and says here, if you trust me, take it, if not leave it. I will go to someone else

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

[/COLOR]]When you go to a burger joint you have faith going there that they will have food for you.

Its not works, its faith!!!

Going to the burger joint is a work. You would never receive the free gift (hamburger) without doing that work and that work does not in anyway earn you the free gift (hamburger).

Faith only (no works) would never get you to the burger joint to order the free hamburger so how can faith only ever get you that free gift (hamburger)?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

yes it does. You earned it by doing to the work to go get it. The only way it would not be earned is if they brought it to you and offered it to you, and gave you the choice to say yes I want it, or no I do not.

We do not earn salvation, because God brings the gift to us, and says here, if you trust me, take it, if not leave it. I will go to someone else

If I was never given the coupon containing an offer of a free hamburger, then there would have been no free gift to receive and no reason to go to the burger joint for no free hamburger is there for me. The coupon, the free offer, therefore required that I go to the burger joint and order the hamburger which in no way earned me the free hamburger.


If someone asked me where I got the hamburger and I said "I earned it", that would not be true and would be an insult to the graciousness of the person that gave me that coupon. No way I can say I earned it when the offer (coupon) was freely given me.

No verse says God believes repents confess submits to baptism for man but God's offer of the free gift of salvation requires man to perform those works and those work cannot earn that free offer of God in anyway.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

If I was never given the coupon containing an offer of a free hamburger, then there would have been no free gift to receive and no reason to go to the burger joint for no free hamburger is there for me. The coupon, the free offer, therefore required that I go to the burger joint and order the hamburger which in no way earned me the free hamburger.

You earned it because you had to go. If it was really free, it would have been brought to you.

1. You paid for the gas to get there if you drove, you had to work for the gass
2. If you walked. you paid by your sweat and hard work to get there.

Nice try though.

If someone asked me where I got the hamburger and I said "I earned it", that would not be true and would be an insult to the graciousness of the person that gave me that coupon. No way I can say I earned it when the offer (coupon) was freely given me.

Yet you did in reality.

Gods way is not our way. stop trying to compare God and his grace gift with mans thinking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Going to the burger joint is a work. You would never receive the free gift (hamburger) without doing that work and that work does not in anyway earn you the free gift (hamburger).

Faith only (no works) would never get you to the burger joint to order the free hamburger so how can faith only ever get you that free gift (hamburger)?

the hamburger was in reality not free. It was paid for by the work you did to go get it. you just saved the normal price of the burger, thats all.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

The facts are:
1) God's grace required the condition of dipping
2) Naaman did the work of dipping
3) he received God's free gift of grace in having his diseased healed

What is overlooked and will continue to be overlooked by some is:

1) God's grace was conditional
2) the condition had to be met before reception of the gift could be had
3) meeting the condition did not, could not earn the free gift.


The case in Lk 5:12 does not change, undo or contradict Naaman's case so you still have your problem.


In Lk 5:12, Jesus conditionally require him to have faith before he would heal. Compare to the case in Matthew 9:

Mt 9:22 "And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us."
Mt 9:23 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

In v22 the man said to Jesus "if thou canst do any thing" - the man lacked faith in Christ. In v23 Jesus is telling the man that healing this child is not something Christ will do alone, but it will also conditionally require that man's faith. (This also is a good analogy against the idea that salvation is by Christ alone, but Christ conditionally requires obedience (Heb 5:9) (obedience in belief repentance, confession, baptism) upon the part of man to save man.)


Compare what each man said:
The man in Luke 5 said "Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean".
The man in Matt 9 said "but if thou canst do any thing"

The man in Lk 5 already conditionally already had faith where the man in Mt 9 did not.


You cannot get anyone saved that does not jump through the "hoops" of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins. You'll never get the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins saved while in that state. Your argument is dead but you will keep arguing just for the sake of arguing.

ADDENDUM:

Jesus raised Lasarus from the dead, that required no condition on the part of Lazarus and would be a case of grace being unconditional. But when it comes to salvation, God's grace is always conditional, else all men universally would be saved per Tts 2:11

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

the hamburger was in reality not free. It was paid for by the work you did to go get it. you just saved the normal price of the burger, thats all.

The coupon says "Present this coupon for your choice of one of our hamburger combo meals FREE!"

The hamburger meal is free. It was not paid for by anything I did. I did not pay the price, some one else must have because the burger joint handed me the hamburger at no charge. I did not even do anything to deserve that offer of a free hamburger but was graciously given to me.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

I never said that Jesus said to do nothing. Jesus said, "this is the work of God/this is what God requires (not these are the works of God) that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Plain and simple, but you refuse to BELIEVE in Him.

Jesus did not contradict Himself and was not teaching salvation by works.

You are creating the contradiction.
The people asked Jesus what they must DO. Instead of telling them do no works, Jesus gave them a WORK to DO that work to DO being "believe". Since no one can be saved without doing the work of believing Jesus was most certainly teaching a "works based salvation" leaving you at the opposite end of what Christ said....AGAIN. The simply fact when they asked Jesus what they must DO, what WORK they are to do (verse 28) and Jesus did NOT tell them "do no works just believe only" that response of Christ refutes your argument to no end.

Jesus - work of God/what God requires/believe in Him

SeaBass - no believing in Him/salvation by works

Paul - Romans 4:5 - [/FONT][/COLOR]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

SeaBass - But to him who works and does not believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, his works are accounted for righteousness.

That statement is the epitome of irony and you are not fooling anyone but yourself and other unbelievers.

Are you really that blind? John 6:28 - "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? They said nothing about works in this verse, right? Open your eyes.

And you misinterpreted what Jesus said. All you know is salvation BY WORKS so the word "work" here was quick to tickle your ears. Jesus already said what He meant by "work of God" in John 6:29 - "Believe in Him."

100% false. Mailmandan would have told them the exact same thing that Jesus told them. Believe in Him. SeaBass would have called that faith only and said, these are the works (plural) that you must accomplish in order to be saved by works.

More irony. You should be a comedian.

Again, in John 6:27, we labor (work) for the meat (food) which does not perish. What is this meat? In (John 6:55), we see "For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." The eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood (John 6:53-56) metaphorically symbolizes the need for accepting Christ's finished work on the cross as the only means of our salvation through faith (John 6:47). The people who Jesus had just explained to labor for the meat which does not perish in (John 6:27), then asked Him in verse 28, What shall we do, that we might work the works (plural) of God? They missed the point that eternal life is Christ's free gift received through faith and they were thinking in terms of achieving it by pious works. Sound familiar? But Jesus answers: "The work (singular) of God is that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent" (John 6:29). Strive or labor in order to come to FAITH in Christ for salvation involves a great struggle against conflict. You seem to still be in this process as you refuse to let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH. *The natural is spiritually discerned and will not understand this.

Your interpretation is 100% opposite of Christ.

You like to ignore Romans 4:5.

Jesus said "this is the work of God/this is what God requires" that you believe in Him.. That is not the same thing as calling faith a work just like any other work. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. If faith is just another work like any other work, then we have a contradiction in Ephesians 2:8,9 - saved through faith, not works. *Note the distinction between faith and works.

Of course "worketh not" does not refer to believes on Him, but it does refer to any works/performance/accomplishments that would be added to believing by which we would then merit eternal life (at least in part). Either our faith is trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost.

Yes it is. Jesus did not ask us to place our order. Jesus offers us the free gift of eternal life. We either accept it through faith or reject it by unbelief. You are trying to order a different plan of salvation.

Changing our mind (repentance) and believing the gospel (the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart) does not earn God's free gift of salvation. Submitting to baptism comes after we place our faith in Christ for salvation and are saved. If we are still lost through faith in Christ until we are water baptized, then we help merit the free gift by getting baptized. Also in a different post you said that good works "maintain" our salvation. More merit. Your so-called free gift is not free after all, but depends on our works/performance/accomplishments.

You posted "Are you really that blind? John 6:28 - "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? They said nothing about works in this verse, right? Open your eyes. "

WHAT????????????????????????????

The people in verse 28 asked "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

Can YOU not see they asked what shall we DO that WE might WORK. They were clearly asking Jesus washt work they were to do and Jesus gave them a work in response to the is question, He gave them the work of believing.

Your argument here is not even based in realty but can only come from the imagination of a mind biased by Martin Luther's faith only.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

The coupon says "Present this coupon for your choice of one of our hamburger combo meals FREE!"

The hamburger meal is free. It was not paid for by anything I did. I did not pay the price, some one else must have because the burger joint handed me the hamburger at no charge. I did not even do anything to deserve that offer of a free hamburger but was graciously given to me.

Christ says my gift is free. I came to you to offer it. If you accept it in faith. I will raise you in the last day to heaven, so you can redeem your free gift.

Sorry. but your faulty example does not fit what God says about his grace gift. You forget. According to God, before you can to him, you had no power. you were dead. there is no walking to heaven to redeem your gift. Because your dead.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: If salvation is "solely by grace," why are not all people saved since Read Titus

Christ says my gift is free.

The coupon said the hamburger was free.

I came to you to offer it.

Some gracious person gave me the coupon that offered a hamburger for free, I did nothing to earn that coupon with a free offer.

If you accept it in faith. I will raise you in the last day to heaven, so you can redeem your free gift.

The coupon, with the free offer of a hamburger, said "redeem at participating store when ordering".

The coupon did not say "do nothing" and the hamburger will magically appear before you no more than Christ said "do nothing" and salvation will magically come to you.

Sorry. but your faulty example does not fit what God says about his grace gift. You forget. According to God, before you can to him, you had no power. you were dead. there is no walking to heaven to redeem your gift. Because your dead.

Sorry but you never proved I earned the hamburger that was given to me FREE.