When does the rapture occur?

[flob]

Amen to your experience!
wonderful.
Thank You Lord, for saving him. And me.



If you want to present MacArthur's writing at times instead of your own, then he becomes fair game for critique. For example his mistakes or illogic in regard to 'white garments.' But that's a comparatively small thing. I didn't 'falsely accuse' him of misteaching/misinterpreting John 14. In the sample you quoted he teaches that the dwellings, the 'mansions,' are some kind of external place Jesus went to construct, lol, when He resurrected and ascended. And that when He comes back in His Second Coming He will take us there. I don't accuse him of teaching what he doesn't. I accuse him of teaching Jn 14 falsely.

Please what does John MacArthur teach concerning the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25? I can look it up for myself, if you prefer. Just say.

Is this MacArthur's writing: "The verb 'keep' is in the Greek Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep [His commands]. It is the direction of one's life, not the perfection of it. What if we do stumble along the way?"?
What does John MacArthur (or you) interpret 'His commands' 1 Jn 2:4 to be? Because 'a lifestyle of striving to keep' sounds a lot like WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS to me. How is it not Works-Righteousness?

Now this part sounds a lot better: "What if we do stumble along the way? He left us instructions for that too: SEE 1 John 1:9."

This part I do not (yet) see in the word: "Will others be turned to Receive HIM and be Saved during the Great Tribulation? YES MANY." If you have any Bible text beside those about all Israel being saved by being born again at the end, to evidence this, please tell me.
Thanks

 

[PlainWord]

Polite lol. That is what Catholicism teaches. That Rv 12's child is Christ. To which I ask: What is the point?
Jesus' Revelation, which God gave to Him to show to John, includes a vision of His incarnation? And Mary?
Mary who-------------goes away to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years after she gives birth to Jesus?

No, no, no. The Woman is Israel, not Mary. Jesus was caught up (raptured) to God and His throne. This happened in AD 33. Then in AD 70-73, Israel was partly physically scattered among the nations. However, spiritual Israel, the worship of the God of Creation, was not replaced in the Land until 688 with the construction of the Dome of the Rock. At this point, Babylon (False Religion) supplanted Judaism in the Holy Land. Out with the true God, in with the False god.

The 1,260 days are not literal days. They represent years.

688 + 1,260 = 1948

The math works perfectly. Jewish faith (absent Christ) still believing in the God of the Universe, still obeying the first commandment returned to the Land as the dominant spiritual worship.

The number of days perfectly match the 1,260 days that the 2 witnesses (Church) is/was to prophesy. Nothing says these "days"/years run concurrently. I'm not even sure they are literal. To me it seems it's been within the last 20 years or so that Christianity has taken a nose dive on the planet.

Rv 12 is 'about Israel.' What about Israel? That the woman is Israel? The man-child? Both?

This Woman (not to be confused with the contrasted Harlot Woman) is Israel. The Man-Child is Christ.

Israel ............. goes to the wilderness?

Correct. Covered above.

Is Hitler in here somewhere too? I apologize.

You raise a great question. Like many, I have been looking for any hint of Hitler in the Bible and I can't definitively find it. The slaughter of 6 MM Jews allowed for the nations to restore Israel to their Land but aside from that...

A man-child. No, that is not Jesus individually. The stronger part is the overcomers from all the ages. Especially the church, since that is the most numerous. They are caught up. The rest of the believers, both deceased and alive, are left behind. Left behind.............until the 3 1/2 years is completed. Then they also are caught up. But to the cloud, to meet the Lord in the air.

Now you are reaching my friend. There is no caught up raptured Church in Heaven taught or found in the Bible. There is no clear teaching of a Pre-Trib return of Christ. Look in Mat 24 - NOTHING. Look in Revelation - NOTHING. Doesn't that bother you, just a little?

The GT is the wrath of God, as Rv says repeatedly.

Please cite chapter and verse where it is said that the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath. This I've got to see. Repeatedly you say???

As for the 2 witnesses. I made my case a few pages back. I was compelled. If you devote 55 minutes of your life and listen to Dr. GK Beale then come back to me on this if you still disagree.

Eg 6:17. And overcomers are promised to escape this. By rapture.

Nope, its the Wrath of God we are to escape and we are told in Rev 18 to get out of the areas God will punish. Hint, they are Muslim areas. Rapture?? Not yet. End of the age.

I can't respond to everything you said, I read it but it's fluff (said with utmost love and respect of course). I want scripture, not man's views.

We both see a great deception in regard to the rapture. Your response is to deny that matured, overcoming firstfruits are taken..

The firstfruits (THE ACTUAL FIRST ONE) is Christ. The 144K are said to be:

These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Thus, they are firstfruits redeemed from among men to specifically God and the Lamb. This implies there will be other fruits collected by God. Nothing here says they are raptured. There is no catching up associated with any return of Christ. 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of God HIMSELF. Read verse 14. Christ merely has His angels gather His ELECT.

As for your speculation that Antichrist or someone will 'stage' a false and grand 'rapture event' so as to gather and surprise most of the church, and then slaughter them.........which results in their becoming martyrs (resurrected and raptured anyway,
as a 'great multitude' to God?)..............I think that speaks for itself. That sounds like believing in a false rapture........turns into them getting raptured anyway. Have I represented your thought accurately?

I know my theory is "out there." . It's been awhile since I advanced it. Do I know for certain that a false rapture event will be staged? No. I am merely connecting dots. However, there is no doubt that the GM is killed and if such a number is killed within 3.5 year or even 7 years, it would be an unprecedented death tally the likes the world has NEVER seen.

Just because they are in heaven doesn't mean they are raptured. My grandparents (God bless them) are in heaven, but they didn't get raptued - they died - just as the GM will die.

 

[VCO]

Amen to your experience!
wonderful.
Thank You Lord, for saving him. And me.



If you want to present MacArthur's writing at times instead of your own, then he becomes fair game for critique. For example his mistakes or illogic in regard to 'white garments.' But that's a comparatively small thing. I didn't 'falsely accuse' him of misteaching/misinterpreting John 14. In the sample you quoted he teaches that the dwellings, the 'mansions,' are some kind of external place Jesus went to construct, lol, when He resurrected and ascended. And that when He comes back in His Second Coming He will take us there. I don't accuse him of teaching what he doesn't. I accuse him of teaching Jn 14 falsely.

Please what does John MacArthur teach concerning the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25? I can look it up for myself, if you prefer. Just say.

Is this MacArthur's writing: "The verb 'keep' is in the Greek Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep [His commands]. It is the direction of one's life, not the perfection of it. What if we do stumble along the way?"?
What does John MacArthur (or you) interpret 'His commands' 1 Jn 2:4 to be? Because 'a lifestyle of striving to keep' sounds a lot like WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS to me. How is it not Works-Righteousness?

Now this part sounds a lot better: "What if we do stumble along the way? He left us instructions for that too: SEE 1 John 1:9."

This part I do not (yet) see in the word: "Will others be turned to Receive HIM and be Saved during the Great Tribulation? YES MANY." If you have any Bible text beside those about all Israel being saved by being born again at the end, to evidence this, please tell me.
Thanks

I told you, but I guess you did not understand me. The lack oil in their lamps is symbolism for lacking the HOLY SPIRIT. They are Church GOERS, who have not been born again, YET. They think they are Christians because they go to Church; but in reality they have not YET by the power of the Holy Spirit received JESUS CHRIST as LORD meaning MASTER. They are still lord of their own lives. How common is that? According to Mat. Chapter 7, it is VERY COMMON. They are the Many on the Broad Road to destruction, who came through the wrong gate. If you want to call everyone who goes to a Christian Church a Christian, that would be your definition. We define a Christian as a person who has made a decision as the HOLY SPIRIT ENABLED them, to receive Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER. Are there many who are sitting in Church Pews who are yet to receive Jesus Christ as LORD? YES but we want to leave them there because:

Romans 10:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:17 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

Here is an excerpt from MacArthur's lengthy Commentary on the subject.

There may be significance in the fact that there were ten virgins, because Jews considered ten to be a number representing completion.
. . .
The ten bridesmaids represent professed disciples of Christ who claim to love the prospect of His appearing and who demonstrate outward readiness for entrance into His kingdom. In appearance the ten were indistinguishable. They were all dressed appropriately in wedding garments and all had the required torch to carry in the wedding procession. But they were not truly alike, which is the point of the parable, because they were not all prepared—five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
The evidence that some of the bridesmaids were unprepared despite their outward appearance was the fact that they took no oil with them. They carried torches that looked exactly like those of the others, but they had nothing to burn in them, nothing that would give light and significance. A torch without fuel is obviously worthless, and a profession of faith in Jesus Christ without a saving relationship to Him is infinitely more worthless, because one is left in spiritual darkness.
The prudent bridesmaids, however, took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Their outward profession was substantiated by inward possession. They had the oil of preparedness, namely, the reality of the light of the saving grace of God within them. The oil is similar to the wedding garments in Jesus' parable of the wedding feast that a king gave for his son. The man without the proper wedding clothes who attempted to crash the celebration was thrown out into the darkness (Matt. 22:11-13). The king had invited everyone in his realm to the feast, regardless of social standing, wealth, or character. He made every effort to see that no one was excluded, sending his servants into every obscure part of the country (vv. 9-10). The only condition for attending the feast was the wearing of the wedding clothes provided by the king, symbolizing the divinely bestowed grace apart from which no person can come to God. Because that presumptuous, self-satisfied man would not allow himself to be attired in the king's clothing, he was rejected.
Like that man without proper wedding clothes, five of the bridesmaids were without proper torches. They had a form of godliness but had no spiritual life or power because they did not belong to God (cf. 2 Tim. 3:5). They were committed to Jesus Christ religiously, intellectually, socially, and no doubt emotionally. But they were not committed to Him in their hearts because their hearts had not been regenerated by His saving grace. They had the appearance of faith, but it was dead (cf. James 2:17). They were in darkness, not light.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Matthew 24-28.

Like I do, Dr. John MacArther teaches a genuine personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST as LORD, which means MASTER; not a religion that only slaps on the label of Christianity. NO genuine LOVE for HIM a LORD, equals still not born again. We believe genuine Salvation will produce spiritual fruit and the primary fruit is LOVE. "By their fruit, you will know them." Fruit by the way is lifestyle characteristics. A Personal Relationship is NOT "intellectual knowledge about HIM" but rather it is KNOWING HIM personally in your heart as your LORD.

Do you KNOW HIM?
Do you converse with HIM?
Do you LOVE HIM?

I do, and HE is IN ME, and I am IN HIM, and that is VERY REAL to me on a daily basis.

Much of what you are asking me to post, I have already posted numerous times in this thread. The two witnesses influence most, if not all of the living Jews to receive JESUS as their Messiah, but their influence does not stop at the borders of Israel. We know this because it is the whole world celebrating when the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist in Jerusalem, and they are seen lying there dead by every village via satellite TV. Plus I personally believe the Sermons on the MP3 format about the end times will be played by those who were not Called Out to go to the wedding. Why should they listen to a Pastor who did not make it? So how do we know the teaching of those witnesses will be effective?

Isaiah 55:11 (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Revelation 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

 

[GaryA]

Quite possibly. I think Christ is referring to the 144K here.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

They are the ELECT for whom the days (Tribulation) are shortened.

Yes.

I believe that the 144K are all that remain at the end of the Great Tribulation Period, as defined in scripture.

I believe that the "arrival on the scene" of the two witnesses is what shortens those days. ( Not the Second Coming of Christ -- which I believe comes 3.5+ years later. )

I would not necessarily presume that "for the elect's sake" means that the 144K specifically are the [ only ] 'elect' -- "for the elect's sake" could certainly have a broader definition and meaning; however, I have always held the belief that the 144K were a / the remnant out of the Great Tribulation Period. ( having bodies like we have now - not 'glorified' / 'resurrected' bodies - and, being the 'seed' for continuing humanity during the 1000-year reign of Christ ---- I am not absolutely sure about the necessary female component of that - but I have an idea about what that might be... )

 

[GaryA]

The 144,000 are not who most think they are, nor are they the only ones alive when the Lord returns. IMO.

For what it is worth -- I was not saying that the 144,000 were the only living Christians alive when the Lord returns; rather, I was saying that - at the point in time indicated in Revelation 7:2 - the 144,000 were the only living Christians alive -- "by simple definition of the fact that" - if all who were servants of God at that point in time were 'sealed' in their foreheads - and, there were 144,000 [ counted as ] sealed - then there could be no other Christians alive at that point in time - besides the 144,000.

Make sense?

Does anyone agree with this?

( Or, please see post #2517 and post #2526 )

 

[VCO]

That the 144,000 [in Rev chapter 7] cannot be 'servants of our God' if they are not born-again [7:3] is a good point.
I must rethink this matter, or re-utter it. What do you think the phrase 'who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus' in 12:17 and 14:12 means? That is central to what I am studying now.

If the 144,000 in chapter 7 are born of God, then what is the point of listing their origin? Since there's no difference between Jew and Gentile in the church, then why even mention that they are of Israel? Paul in Philippians mentions that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews and his Benjamin lineage to make the point that he regards all that as nothing. Nothing in comparison to gaining Christ. So again, if the 144,000 in chapter 7 are Christians, then why mention what Paul considered as 'loss'?

I think the 144,000 in chapter 14 are born of God, to say the least. Because I also think they are 'overcomers.' The first-ripened ones from the church. I think they are in the heavens, standing with the Lamb. Because at this juncture, the Lamb has not yet returned to the earth, to the Mount Zion in Israel. Instead, this is the heavenly Mount Zion, Hebrews 12:22, in the third heavens.

Most definitely I feel there will be left-behind Christians. In fact most Christians alive at the start of the Tribulation will be left-behind. I get this phrase from 1 Thessalonians 4:17, describing the last rapture, the harvest of the majority of the church (Rv 14:14-16): '...Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.' If being left behind were impossible, then the Lord Jesus would not tell His believers, in Luke 21:36, to 'beseech that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man.' If being left behind were impossible, then there would be no difference between firstfruits and harvest, in Revelation 14. There would just be a harvest, of the church, and that would be at the start of the tribulation rather than where it is in fact: at the end. If being left behind were impossible, then the church in Revelation 12, the woman, would not need to be nourished on earth for 3 1/2 years. Instead, she would have been caught up with her son. The woman in chapter 12 includes the church left behind. If none of the church were left behind, there would not be the phrase 'those who have the testimony of Jesus,' in 12:17 and 14:12. I am most curious what you (all) think that (entire) phrase means.

Since there is a harvest of the church at the end of the tribulation (in addition to the firstfruit at its start), and since the woman survives the length of the great tribulation on earth in chapter 12, most of the church will not be martyred nor die
during the Great Tribulation.

In my #2534 I was sharing my understanding of the sequence. I should try to return to that. And the 'trigger,' spiritually, of all these events. What it is God needs in order to consummate this age.

The 144,000 are all Jews who do believe JESUS is their Messiah, they are all chosen and sealed by GOD in their mortal bodies to be protected from harm to their mortal bodies. WHY? Most likely to repopulate ISRAEL with mortals during HIS 1000 Year reign from the THRONE of DAVID. Why is that important? GOD KEEPS HIS WORD!

Genesis 17:8 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

1 Chronicles 16:16-18 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, as your portion for an inheritance.”

NONE of us will be having offspring in the KINGDOM, because we will be in our resurrected, glorified, immortal bodies:

Matthew 22:30 (RSV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

[VCO]

Amen to your experience!
wonderful.
Thank You Lord, for saving him. And me.



If you want to present MacArthur's writing at times instead of your own, then he becomes fair game for critique. For example his mistakes or illogic in regard to 'white garments.' But that's a comparatively small thing. I didn't 'falsely accuse' him of misteaching/misinterpreting John 14. In the sample you quoted he teaches that the dwellings, the 'mansions,' are some kind of external place Jesus went to construct, lol, when He resurrected and ascended. And that when He comes back in His Second Coming He will take us there. I don't accuse him of teaching what he doesn't. I accuse him of teaching Jn 14 falsely.

Please what does John MacArthur teach concerning the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25? I can look it up for myself, if you prefer. Just say.

Is this MacArthur's writing: "The verb 'keep' is in the Greek Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep [His commands]. It is the direction of one's life, not the perfection of it. What if we do stumble along the way?"?
What does John MacArthur (or you) interpret 'His commands' 1 Jn 2:4 to be? Because 'a lifestyle of striving to keep' sounds a lot like WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS to me. How is it not Works-Righteousness?

Now this part sounds a lot better: "What if we do stumble along the way? He left us instructions for that too: SEE 1 John 1:9."

This part I do not (yet) see in the word: "Will others be turned to Receive HIM and be Saved during the Great Tribulation? YES MANY." If you have any Bible text beside those about all Israel being saved by being born again at the end, to evidence this, please tell me.
Thanks

You are confusing Salvation with Sanctification of the Body.

SALVATION IS THE VERY MOMENT YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT IS BIRTHED INTO ETERNAL LIFE, THE VERY MOMENT YOU FIRST BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART and not just with what lies between your ears. That Genuine Salvation produces through your LIVING Human Spirit a desire to show your LOVE for HIM by striving to obey HIM always. THAT step by step process of becoming more and more LIKE HIM, is Sanctification. Salvation is PURELY by the GRACE of God and involves what the HOLY SPIRIT DOES TO OUR HUMAN SPIRIT. The works we do and our striving to obey all of His commandments, are ACTS OF LOVE FOR HIM, who first loved us; AFTER WE ARE SAVED. Those who genuinely LOVE HIM WILL manifest that LOVE by striving to obey HIM. Works righteousness is when you think you can or have to earn part of your Salvation. NEVER, because it is a gift from GOD that we do not deserve; that is what GRACE is. MERCY is NOT receiving what we DO DESERVE. If you have FAITH, that is part of that FREE GIFT FROM GOD.

I also have more news for you, the Jewish Wedding is always held in the new dwelling place that the Bridegroom has built in or very near his father's house. That tradition started before Christ, and most still practice it today. The statement "I go to prepare a place for you."; is also the traditional statement the Jewish Bridegroom makes after his Bride drinks from his betrothal cup, which signifies she accepts HIS proposal. You miss a LOT of depth of meaning in certain verses if you do not study the Jewish Wedding Customs. He called Himself the Bridegroom, and He is following, step by step, the Jewish Wedding Customs. Our New Dwelling Place that HE has built for us is the New City Jerusalem, which will be lowered to the New Earth as we enter the Eternal State after His 1000 Year Earth Reign on the Throne of David.

Ancient Jewish Wedding and the Return of Our Bride Groom King

 

[popeye]

You are confusing Salvation with Sanctification of the Body.

SALVATION IS THE VERY MOMENT YOUR HUMAN SPIRIT IS BIRTHED INTO ETERNAL LIFE, THE VERY MOMENT YOU FIRST BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART and not just with what lies between your ears. That Genuine Salvation produces through your LIVING Human Spirit a desire to show your LOVE for HIM by striving to obey HIM always. THAT step by step process of becoming more and more LIKE HIM, is Sanctification. Salvation is PURELY by the GRACE of God and involves what the HOLY SPIRIT DOES TO OUR HUMAN SPIRIT. The works we do and our striving to obey all of His commandments, are ACTS OF LOVE FOR HIM, who first loved us; AFTER WE ARE SAVED. Those who genuinely LOVE HIM WILL manifest that LOVE by striving to obey HIM. Works righteousness is when you think you can or have to earn part of your Salvation. NEVER, because it is a gift from GOD that we do not deserve; that is what GRACE is. MERCY is NOT receiving what we DO DESERVE. If you have FAITH, that is part of that FREE GIFT FROM GOD.

I also have more news for you, the Jewish Wedding is always held in the new dwelling place that the Bridegroom has built in or very near his father's house. That tradition started before Christ, and most still practice it today. The statement "I go to prepare a place for you."; is also the traditional statement the Jewish Bridegroom makes after his Bride drinks from his betrothal cup, which signifies she accepts HIS proposal. You miss a LOT of depth of meaning in certain verses if you do not study the Jewish Wedding Customs. He called Himself the Bridegroom, and He is following, step by step, the Jewish Wedding Customs. Our New Dwelling Place that HE has built for us is the New City Jerusalem, which will be lowered to the New Earth as we enter the Eternal State after His 1000 Year Earth Reign on the Throne of David.

Ancient Jewish Wedding and the Return of Our Bride Groom King

This dimension is a game changer in the rapture debate.
I recently took another look at Jesus' first miracle,at a wedding feast.

The entire picture is there before us.
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Jesus;".........mine hour is not yet come." (where we are now)

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews
(what the GT is about,DURING THE WEDDING) .....we see both dynamics here

10 "....... but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
(the last of the harvest is the jews that will indeed come home....a remnant"

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Huh? They went DOWN AFTER THE WEDDING???
Huh? Jesus and his disciples went DOWN????

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Note that capernaum means "village of Nahum"
Note; he is the one that prophesied the destruction of nineva.
"........because they would not repent"

Like you said VCO,the postribs miss the depth of the end times.

 

[popeye]

Yes.

I believe that the 144K are all that remain at the end of the Great Tribulation Period, as defined in scripture.

I believe that the "arrival on the scene" of the two witnesses is what shortens those days. ( Not the Second Coming of Christ -- which I believe comes 3.5+ years later. )

I would not necessarily presume that "for the elect's sake" means that the 144K specifically are the [ only ] 'elect' -- "for the elect's sake" could certainly have a broader definition and meaning; however, I have always held the belief that the 144K were a / the remnant out of the Great Tribulation Period. ( having bodies like we have now - not 'glorified' / 'resurrected' bodies - and, being the 'seed' for continuing humanity during the 1000-year reign of Christ ---- I am not absolutely sure about the necessary female component of that - but I have an idea about what that might be... )

The 144 k are harvested towards the end of the GT
harvest has 4 parts. The firstfruits are already harvested.next is the main harvest.The rapture. Then the last 2 parts are the "remnant" Jews

 

[PlainWord]

Gary,

Yes.

I believe that the 144K are all that remain at the end of the Great Tribulation Period, as defined in scripture.

I'm not willing to die on the Hill that says the 144K are not the only believers left on the planet as I believe you could be correct. However, they are called "firstfruits redeemed from men" not "only fruits redeemed from men." Clearly they are special. They are called, ELECT, FAITHFUL and CHOSEN. They are also said to be descendents of the Jewish tribes. All Jews are to return to Israel. Christ gathers to Himself and He will be in Israel.

Zech 14 paints a picture of nations coming to Jerusalem once a year to worship the Lamb. Would it be a big leap to suggest Christians who reside outside of Jerusalem would be included? Just making a counter argument - not saying I agree with it. I just don't see a definitive lesson that the 144K are all the remaining believers in the world. To me that's speculation.

I believe that the "arrival on the scene" of the two witnesses is what shortens those days. ( Not the Second Coming of Christ -- which I believe comes 3.5+ years later. )

I guess you were not impressed by the arguments of Dr. GK Beale that I summarized? You acknowledge that the BEAST which comes up from the Pit and kills the witnesses is figurative yet 2 fire breathing men are literal. I would suggest that if part of a description is figurative then all of it is. I have put forth a more than reasonable interpretation for the witnesses to be the Church.

Thus the 2 witnesses are already on the scene IMO. War against them is already well underway and they are being overcome right now. They will be killed in a spiritual, not literal, place called Sodom and Egypt. The symbolism is clear and coincidentally we see that the church is losing this spiritual war big time. Preaching against Gay Marriage is now considered Hate Speech. Soon pastors who do will get arrested for it, convicted and sent to jail. Wait and see.

I would not necessarily presume that "for the elect's sake" means that the 144K specifically are the [ only ] 'elect' -- "for the elect's sake" could certainly have a broader definition and meaning; however, I have always held the belief that the 144K were a / the remnant out of the Great Tribulation Period. ( having bodies like we have now - not 'glorified' / 'resurrected' bodies - and, being the 'seed' for continuing humanity during the 1000-year reign of Christ ---- I am not absolutely sure about the necessary female component of that - but I have an idea about what that might be... )

This is for everyone - I would suggest that when reading Revelation, knowing that the book was written in code is the key to understanding it correctly. 1st century Christians were under enormous Roman persecution. Thus John used OT symbols (which the Romans would not understand but that the Church would) to protect not only himself, but his readers - the 7 churches in Asia Minor living under Roman rule. Thus, in the case of Revelation, ALWAYS see if the figurative makes sense first. If it does, ignore the literal. I know this is opposite to the usual way of reading things but Revelation was not written specifically to us, it was written to 1st century Christians in a style known to them. So try to put yourself in their mindset as you study.

So, let's look at this phrase:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins.

We have the word "Women or Woman" applied two different ways in Revelation. The first Woman gave birth to the Man-Child. She is/was Israel. Israel believes(d) is the true God. Israel is God's Chosen People. The 144K are called CHOSEN so we have a pretty clear match. The second Woman is the Mother of all Harlots. We know that the word "Harlot or Harlotry" is a figurative word for Idol worship. There is only one MOTHER of all false religions in the world today and that is ISLAM. Thus the second woman is Islam. So "women or woman" refers to a faith/belief system. The two women are compared and contrasted pretty vividly.

...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

COMPARED AND CONTRASTED TO:

And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

Thus when we are told that the 144K or virgins it has NOTHING to do with them being literal virgins. John is not jumping back and forth between figurative and literal as he would then become impossible to understand. Thus there is no gender associated with the 144K.

 

[PlainWord]

For what it is worth -- I was not saying that the 144,000 were the only living Christians alive when the Lord returns; rather, I was saying that - at the point in time indicated in Revelation 7:2 - the 144,000 were the only living Christians alive -- "by simple definition of the fact that" - if all who were servants of God at that point in time were 'sealed' in their foreheads - and, there were 144,000 [ counted as ] sealed - then there could be no other Christians alive at that point in time - besides the 144,000.

Make sense?

Does anyone agree with this?

( Or, please see post #2517 and post #2526 )

I do tend to agree that it is more likely than not (51% to 49% probability) that the 144K are the only Christians left at this point. I don't necessarily believe the actual number is only 144,000 as this number certainly could be symbolic due to the perfect nature of the number. 12 x 12 indicates completeness and perfection. x 1000 indicates a large group.

If there are 2.3 Billion Christians in the world before the GT starts and only 144,000 literal believers left at the Return of Christ, we would have:

2,300,000,000 - 144,000 = 2,299,856,000 killed

How is it possible to literally and discriminately kill nearly 2.3 Billion select people in a 3.5 or even 7 year period by conventional (man made) means?

Can anyone offer a suggestion how this could happen???

 

[PlainWord]

The 144 k are harvested towards the end of the GT
harvest has 4 parts. The firstfruits are already harvested.next is the main harvest.The rapture. Then the last 2 parts are the "remnant" Jews

Actually, the GT is over before Christ returns (Mat 24:29-31)

Rev 14 shows only 2 harvests, not 4.

The righteous are shown to be harvested at Rev 14:14-16
The wicked are shown to be harvest at Rev 14:17-20

Coincidentally, Christ has returned and is standing on Mt. Zion before either harvest is discussed. Mat 13 also discusses 2 harvests, not 4. One for the tares, one for the wheat. Daniel 12 discusses 2 resurrections, one for the righteous, one for the wicked.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot fit a Pre-Trib Rapture into scripture. It just does not fit. A single Post Trib Return harmonizes with everything not to mention it is also clearly taught.

 

[PlainWord]

This dimension is a game changer in the rapture debate.
I recently took another look at Jesus' first miracle,at a wedding feast.

The entire picture is there before us.
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Jesus;".........mine hour is not yet come." (where we are now)

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews
(what the GT is about,DURING THE WEDDING) .....we see both dynamics here

10 "....... but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
(the last of the harvest is the jews that will indeed come home....a remnant"

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Huh? They went DOWN AFTER THE WEDDING???
Huh? Jesus and his disciples went DOWN????

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Note that capernaum means "village of Nahum"
Note; he is the one that prophesied the destruction of nineva.
"........because they would not repent"

Like you said VCO,the postribs miss the depth of the end times.

The only support for a pre-trib rapture is to do what you have just done. You have read it into scripture which isn't even discussing it. You see the Pre-trib return as some secret code between the lines of unrelated passages. A secret, coded return of Christ is what you've invented.

Meanwhile you ignore the "depths of the end times" which are there.

We are told "through much Tribulation we will enter the Kingdom"
We are shown a GM who die during the GT
We are told Satan wages war and overcomes Saints
We are instructed to take up our Cross...
We are shown the Bride (New Jerusalem after the GT is long over)

Thus we are given clear teachings but you (and many others) prefer to look for imbedded secret things not taught which actually contradict the clear teachings. This is a dangerous practice IMO.

 

[popeye]

Actually, the GT is over before Christ returns (Mat 24:29-31)

Rev 14 shows only 2 harvests, not 4.

The righteous are shown to be harvested at Rev 14:14-16
The wicked are shown to be harvest at Rev 14:17-20

Coincidentally, Christ has returned and is standing on Mt. Zion before either harvest is discussed. Mat 13 also discusses 2 harvests, not 4. One for the tares, one for the wheat. Daniel 12 discusses 2 resurrections, one for the righteous, one for the wicked.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot fit a Pre-Trib Rapture into scripture. It just does not fit. A single Post Trib Return harmonizes with everything not to mention it is also clearly taught.

........and zzziiiiiing,firstfruits is thrown out.........and zzziiiiing,main harvest is thrown out,and zzziiiing,the gleaners are thrown out........

A single Post Trib Return harmonizes with everything not to mention it is also clearly taught.

Yes,that is why you twist rev 20,the wedding,the church in heaven,pretend the escape verses are missing,and have no pigeonhole for the "times of the gentiles fulfilled",or answer as to why you refuse to acknowledge the AC kills every believer.

 

[popeye]

The only support for a pre-trib rapture is to do what you have just done. You have read it into scripture which isn't even discussing it. You see the Pre-trib return as some secret code between the lines of unrelated passages. A secret, coded return of Christ is what you've invented.

Meanwhile you ignore the "depths of the end times" which are there.

We are told "through much Tribulation we will enter the Kingdom"
We are shown a GM who die during the GT
We are told Satan wages war and overcomes Saints
We are instructed to take up our Cross...
We are shown the Bride (New Jerusalem after the GT is long over)

Thus we are given clear teachings but you (and many others) prefer to look for imbedded secret things not taught which actually contradict the clear teachings. This is a dangerous practice IMO.

We are told Satan wages war and overcomes Saints

Huh? we agree there are no saints at the end of the GT?

Corner painting time again?

 

[popeye]

The only support for a pre-trib rapture is to do what you have just done. You have read it into scripture which isn't even discussing it. You see the Pre-trib return as some secret code between the lines of unrelated passages. A secret, coded return of Christ is what you've invented.

Meanwhile you ignore the "depths of the end times" which are there.

We are told "through much Tribulation we will enter the Kingdom"
We are shown a GM who die during the GT
We are told Satan wages war and overcomes Saints
We are instructed to take up our Cross...
We are shown the Bride (New Jerusalem after the GT is long over)

Thus we are given clear teachings but you (and many others) prefer to look for imbedded secret things not taught which actually contradict the clear teachings. This is a dangerous practice IMO.

Meanwhile you ignore the "depths of the end times" which are there.

No,I am allowed to read all the verses.Please bring them..

What you have basically done is take yourself out by snubbing jesus' alagorical depiction of end times.

You can not wrap your natural mind around spiritual laws such as "the last shall be first", "this same jesus shall RETURN IN LIKE MANNER","...that where I am you may be also",....

Not to mention your total lack of any revelation on the wedding dimension.

You see the Pre-trib return as some secret code between the lines of unrelated passages. A secret, coded return of Christ is what you've invented.

Translation; "I can not go toe to toe scripturally,so here,please accept these wild generalizations".

 

[mwc68]

No, no, no. The Woman is Israel, not Mary. Jesus was caught up (raptured) to God and His throne. This happened in AD 33. Then in AD 70-73, Israel was partly physically scattered among the nations. However, spiritual Israel, the worship of the God of Creation, was not replaced in the Land until 688 with the construction of the Dome of the Rock. At this point, Babylon (False Religion) supplanted Judaism in the Holy Land. Out with the true God, in with the False god.

The 1,260 days are not literal days. They represent years.

688 + 1,260 = 1948

The math works perfectly. Jewish faith (absent Christ) still believing in the God of the Universe, still obeying the first commandment returned to the Land as the dominant spiritual worship.

The number of days perfectly match the 1,260 days that the 2 witnesses (Church) is/was to prophesy. Nothing says these "days"/years run concurrently. I'm not even sure they are literal. To me it seems it's been within the last 20 years or so that Christianity has taken a nose dive on the planet.



This Woman (not to be confused with the contrasted Harlot Woman) is Israel. The Man-Child is Christ.



Correct. Covered above.



You raise a great question. Like many, I have been looking for any hint of Hitler in the Bible and I can't definitively find it. The slaughter of 6 MM Jews allowed for the nations to restore Israel to their Land but aside from that...



Now you are reaching my friend. There is no caught up raptured Church in Heaven taught or found in the Bible. There is no clear teaching of a Pre-Trib return of Christ. Look in Mat 24 - NOTHING. Look in Revelation - NOTHING. Doesn't that bother you, just a little?



Please cite chapter and verse where it is said that the Great Tribulation is God's Wrath. This I've got to see. Repeatedly you say???

As for the 2 witnesses. I made my case a few pages back. I was compelled. If you devote 55 minutes of your life and listen to Dr. GK Beale then come back to me on this if you still disagree.



Nope, its the Wrath of God we are to escape and we are told in Rev 18 to get out of the areas God will punish. Hint, they are Muslim areas. Rapture?? Not yet. End of the age.

I can't respond to everything you said, I read it but it's fluff (said with utmost love and respect of course). I want scripture, not man's views.



The firstfruits (THE ACTUAL FIRST ONE) is Christ. The 144K are said to be:

These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Thus, they are firstfruits redeemed from among men to specifically God and the Lamb. This implies there will be other fruits collected by God. Nothing here says they are raptured. There is no catching up associated with any return of Christ. 1 Thes 4 discusses the return of God HIMSELF. Read verse 14. Christ merely has His angels gather His ELECT.



I know my theory is "out there." . It's been awhile since I advanced it. Do I know for certain that a false rapture event will be staged? No. I am merely connecting dots. However, there is no doubt that the GM is killed and if such a number is killed within 3.5 year or even 7 years, it would be an unprecedented death tally the likes the world has NEVER seen.

Just because they are in heaven doesn't mean they are raptured. My grandparents (God bless them) are in heaven, but they didn't get raptued - they died - just as the GM will die.

Rev 12
Is the Blessed Mary and this " rapture" theory is nonsense. Most of you can't even agree on this made up heresy

 

[popeye]

Rev 12
Is the Blessed Mary and this " rapture" theory is nonsense. Most of you can't even agree on this made up heresy

Read 1 thes 4,look upward,and tell Jesus he made it up

 

[mwc68]

Read 1 thes 4,look upward,and tell Jesus he made it up

1Thes 4 is the LAST DAY! Not some so-called rapture. You make Jesus a liar with this nonsense. "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood, I will raise on the LAST DAY" Not a rapture, the LAST DAY

 

[flob]

#2561 "The [Rv 12] Woman is Israel."
The reason you think that is because the Dome of the Rock was begun in 688, and 688 + 1260 = 1948?
Did you hear someone say that, or did you do that yourself?
Israel did not only worship the God of creation, they worshipped the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They worshipped the God of Israel. And then they crucified the God of Israel. He left their house to them desolate in Mt 23:38.
Their religion became false. No need to have Islam supplant it.
Unlike your accounting, Dan 9:24-27's 69th week ends with the crucifixion of Christ, not with the Dome of the Rock.
(And the 70th and final week begins with a firm covenant between the 7th king in Rv 17:10, and 'the many.' Which has yet to happen, and which, when it happens will be a sign to you and me and anyone else who is paying attention, that the Great Tribulation will begin 3 1/2 years later.)

In Rv 12:6, 14, the woman goes to one place. She isn't scattered like Israel's Diaspora after Titus the Roman, Dan 9:26.

If the 688 + 1260 = 1948 math works perfectly, then why are you not sure the 1260 days are consecutive, or literal?

Since it appears that you are into history, then do you know what is the river Satan cast out of his mouth which the earth swallowed in Rv 12:15-16?

I'm taking this opportunity to learn and be taught. Since you seek to know the fulfilment of numbers, what is the time, times, and half a time in 12:14 (Dan 7:25) ? Does that = the 1260 days? And if so, how? Then lastly, since Rv 12 and 11 are connected for this 1260 period, what are the 42 months in 11:2? Thanks for your help PW