Does God Hate The Unsaved?

[JaumeJ]

This is better than Perry Mason! I wonder if there are many here who know who he is.......Good elaboration o th eobvious, or maybe not so obvious.....

And before the fall, Adam didn't KNOW good and evil. So he wasn't choosing good and evil until He ate the fruit(Fig/IMO)

So on one hand I could say his freewill got even bigger. Now He can hide from God and can choose good and evil.

But on the other hand he was separated from God. BUT, He hid from(a new choice in his changed nature) God. And God came to Him and Adam still chose to take the animal skins(Christ) and be covered by a sacrifice.

So Adam still chose God, even in His new fallen nature.

So yeah, I am still on the fence that freewill inherently changed. I see circumstances changed. And even more options for our freewill.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My take is that man's choice is limited by his fallen nature and even when confronted with the whole Gospel call and story, will not be moved until God begins opening their eyes of understanding to 'see' their sinfulness and be enlightened to who Jesus is...the Son of God. Thus their free will is useless until God in His mercy moves upon them.

Matthew 16:17 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

ok yes. A man can not understand the things of God until God enlightens them. we agree 100% here

Thus the issue. What is the factor which makes God come and show you and I the truth, but does not cause him to show someone down the street the truth in a way we can understand, does he hide it from them and blind them to it, never to allow them to see it, Or is it because they have hidden god in their heart (see romans 1) and never asked for it, and no matter what God does, they would never believe anyway.

1. A person sees his plight, realizes he needs God. so calls on God to show him in a way he can understand.

2. God, in his omniscience (in the case of a person living in a place who has no access to even the truth of God) Knows that if he brings the truth to these people. they will want to follow him. as apposed to a group of people who God knows, no matter what he does. they would never receive his truth or his love. (this could even be the case that some people in this area became conscious of God as per romans 1, in his wonderous creation, and saw their evil, and called out to God to show them the truth, which I have heard testimony from missionaries who have gone to these countries, has actually happened.)

3. God says I chose to save that person. for no particular reason, So I will enlighten him. I chose not to save that person, so I will never allow them to be given the spirit of understanding.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you think that freewill was adjusted and changed at the fall? Or was it surroundings,circumstances and situations that changed?

I have a hard time seeing that freewill was what inherently changed.

Just throwing things out. Interesting subject.

I see freewill in man as one of the divine institutions established by God. Did God change that freewill at the fall?

no, free will is still there, it is just our choices changed. because our desires changed.. something had to be restored before our desires changed back to the way God intended thus we have the meaning of the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And before the fall, Adam didn't KNOW good and evil. So he wasn't choosing good and evil until He ate the fruit(Fig/IMO)

So on one hand I could say his freewill got even bigger. Now He can hide from God and can choose good and evil.

But on the other hand he was separated from God. BUT, He hid from(a new choice in his changed nature) God. And God came to Him and Adam still chose to take the animal skins(Christ) and be covered by a sacrifice.

So Adam still chose God, even in His new fallen nature.

So yeah, I am still on the fence that freewill inherently changed. I see circumstances changed. And even more options for our freewill.

but always remember, even in this case, God came to adam. It was God who called out to adam, where are you.

It was also God who showed the way to salvation symbilically by covering the sin (nakedness) of adam with the first physical death in the universe.

Imagine adams horror when he realise his one action caused the death of an innocent animal.

Only can we begin to wonder what it is like when we realize our sin caused the death of our creator.

 

[Gr8grace]

Adam chose God in his fallen nature?
Rather Adam hid from God. God came seeking Adam.
Adam then began excuse making and blame shifting.

This is what fallen man does today with his free will...no change.

Yes, Adam chose God in his fallen nature. Yes, we make excuses and blame others and God. And God gave Adam the gospel in the garment of skins He made for Adam and Eve.

And I would guess, that it was quite shocking for Adam to watch God kill one of his animals, skin it, sew up the Garment and give it to Adam.

And based upon the nature of our God, He explained EXACTLY what was going on to Adam......His Gospel.

The idea that God does not seek after some men is what I have a problem with. whosoever looked upon the brazen serpent was healed. Just turn their head and they were healed.No person was excluded from looking.

 

[MarcR]

Try Olivetree next time, at least the Greek seems fine here on CC.

Thx; but I am not in a positiom, financially to buy a new software suite now. Typing is tedious but much less expensive than software.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, Adam chose God in his fallen nature. Yes, we make excuses and blame others and God. And God gave Adam the gospel in the garment of skins He made for Adam and Eve.

And I would guess, that it was quite shocking for Adam to watch God kill one of his animals, skin it, sew up the Garment and give it to Adam.

And based upon the nature of our God, He explained EXACTLY what was going on to Adam......His Gospel.

The idea that God does not seek after some men is what I have a problem with. whosoever looked upon the brazen serpent was healed. Just turn their head and they were healed.No person was excluded from looking.

When did Adam choose God in his fallen state?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

remembering every sin I ever did will be a constant reminder for eternity I am sure..

Maybe I am just not understanding but why would you want to remember every sin you ever did for eternity? . . . God has already cast them as far as the east is from the west . . . Psalm 103:12

How can there be "no sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" if we have to sit around and remember our own iniquities?

Just asking . .

 

[Gr8grace]

but always remember, even in this case, God came to adam. It was God who called out to adam, where are you.

It was also God who showed the way to salvation symbilically by covering the sin (nakedness) of adam with the first physical death in the universe.

Imagine adams horror when he realise his one action caused the death of an innocent animal.

Only can we begin to wonder what it is like when we realize our sin caused the death of our creator.

God came to us. It is the idea that God does not come to some men, but He does to others is my beef. Not the debate of man can or can't go to God.

When God comes to a man and He will. Man can reject Him.

 

[crossnote]

Maybe I am just not understanding but why would you want to remember every sin you ever did for eternity? . . . God has already cast them as far as the east is from the west . . . Psalm 103:12

How can there be "no sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" if we have to sit around and remember our own iniquities?

Just asking . .

You are going to have to teach me someday how you ask questions nicely. You and aMarc.

 

[MarcR]

Thats sad, So your saying that he does not agree with you. so he must not be very good?

PS. He is not the only one who said that, I only posted one..

I also used biblical examples.

God said to love him and your niehgbor. to love and honor our parents and our spouse.

Yet he also said if we do not HATE these people. we can not follow him or be his children (speaking as in relation to him)

So you telling me God is telling us to despise, detest, or abhor our parents and spouses and children?

Sorry I can not buy it.

I'm sorry, EG. I probably should not have posted that, since it is a pet peeve. My dad briefly taught etymology and philology at Columbia; and made me aware of different approaches to lexicography. I have a dim view of redefining words to fit our point of view. I would be much more comfortable if that were a legitimate definition of the word; but it is not!

There is simply no context in scripture in which that deffinition fits, IMO, and I have been reading (as opposed to learning to read) Hebrew for about 70 years.

 

[atwhatcost]

Anger . . .

Someone hurts me. I get angry.

God hits wrath and everyone but eight people are wiped off the face of the earth. Seems a bit more than angry.

 

[MarcR]

Thats sad, So your saying that he does not agree with you. so he must not be very good?

PS. He is not the only one who said that, I only posted one..

I also used biblical examples.

God said to love him and your niehgbor. to love and honor our parents and our spouse.

Yet he also said if we do not HATE these people. we can not follow him or be his children (speaking as in relation to him)

So you telling me God is telling us to despise, detest, or abhor our parents and spouses and children?

Sorry I can not buy it.

EG,

I specifically said, in my post, that the Greek miseo ( Lk 16) does lend itself to the connotation of love less; but the Hebrew saw nee tiy does not. This is the same word used to say that Esau despised his birthright.

 

[Gr8grace]

When did Adam choose God in his fallen state?

When he didn't throw them(The garments) back in Gods face!

And I cannot give you a scripture that clearly says Adam Chose God. It is what I deduce from scripture.

 

[atwhatcost]

Hate. An interesting word. My daughters and son have sometimes stormed up stairs saying "I hate you."

They do not mean they reject me, and never want a loving relationship, they are saying the dislike into terms of anger about the situation they are in and it is because I am standing in the way and brought about something they definately did not want.

This is very different from hate which plots to murder someone, which is not in the heat of a situation but driven much deeper, and is a lot more cruel and evil. It says the target is not worthy of living, and should be removed at the first opportunity. It destroys peoples souls and consumes them like a desease, where all light goes out, and only this anger remains. It is linked to bitterness, and it poisons a soul. It says something would have been ok and worked if this had not gone that way.

God does not participate in things like this because He sees clearly, He knows the causes and effects, why things happened a particular way and how it will work out. So He cannot be bitter, he truly brings judgement, and destroys, makes flat, clears things out. And it is not as if His enemies can stop Him. So he has no need of Hate or Bitterness like this, these are human conditions.

Your kids do not mean it. Are you saying God doesn't mean it either? Doesn't that put him in one of these categories then:
Imperfect
Sinful
Inconsistent
Inept?

And if "God does not participate in things like this," then explain
All the firstborns in Egypt being wiped out
The entire Egyptian Army -- Pharaoh and all -being drowned
3000 Israelites keeling over after making a gold calf to represent God.
Sodom
Gomorrah
The other three cities.
One humongous flood.
God telling the Israelites to wipe out all the nations living in the promise land.
The vast majority of people spending eternity in hell?

Hate isn't always limited to bitterness and I don't think God has a soul to let it get poisoned.

You're making a god that's no more than a very big man. He's not a man. He's God. To explain him in human terms is about like trying to explain dirt in human terms. Neither is human.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I wasn't saying anything about heaven only asking.
You don't think Adam's flaw was his inherent weakness to succumb to disobey God as he ended up doing?
So I suppose another fall is a high possibility in heaven by us since the angels were perfect as you say and had free will?

Now that is a scary thought! But we will be living in a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" for eternity - hopefully that makes a difference. Maybe there will be no such thing as "pride" this time around.

Adam and Eve . . . . Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. They made a choice after being tempted and they made the wrong choice.

 

[Sirk]

When he didn't throw them(The garments) back in Gods face!

And I cannot give you a scripture that clearly says Adam Chose God. It is what I deduce from scripture.

And I deduce that God covered them in lamb skin. I think they had the first animal sacrifice. I can't back it up but it certainly would fit the narrative from them on.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Someone hurts me. I get angry.

God hits wrath and everyone but eight people are wiped off the face of the earth. Seems a bit more than angry.

So . . . and God's wrath poured out in the Great Tribulation at the end will be much greater than any anger he has ever let loose or ever known. He is angry and disappointed with mankind and he is going to show them a thing or two!

Just because my anger does not extend or come close to God's anger doesn't change the fact that his wrath is anger.

 

[atwhatcost]

Perhaps you believe you are responding to my post, but I cannot see it.

Why would God put people on eartth who are prechosen to be saved while burning the remainder in the lake of fire? Why would He have cfreated all that is in the first place?

It is very important to pay close attention to the tenses of verbs, the antecedants carried from one sentence to another or simply from the proper pronoun or noun, and much more.

An example is how God will be pouring out a spirit of delusion on the earth so that those who have chosen evil will believe lies. Here their free will is over ridden by God visitig punishment on them for choosing evil over good.
Most times when God visits punishment or chastisement on a people or group it is because He loves them, but in the case of those who have deliberately chosen evil, He is simply visiting punishment upon them.

As for free will, unless a person is a demon incarnate, all people may choose between good and evil. As for what is here in reference to demons incarnate, this too is referred to in freference to the number of those who are to be saved is reached. Please do not construe this as being predestined, soon will come a time when what people are left in this age will all be known as saved or unsavable........for demons will be incarnate. This is easily derived fro Daniel and Revelation,

As for being foreknown, we are all foreknown when we repent and the Holy Spirit enters into us. This only can happen if we, by free will, turn from the world and its works to God...............

Where is this in the Bible?
"God will be pouring out a spirit of delusion on the earth so that those who have chosen evil will believe lies. Here their free will is over ridden by God visiting punishment on them for choosing evil over good."

I've never seen God pouring out any other spirit but his Holy Spirit.

 

[atwhatcost]

That's ridiculous...I've had this verse memorized since I sang Jesus loves me as a child. Yes God loved the world, that encompasses every nation, not all the people from those tribes and nations, but every language and tongue, when I say the whole world, it's from the east to the west, that any man from any nation and tongue can be saved, as Jesus declared that his Gospel would be preached to the world, and also as Paul declared, that his word reaches the ends of the Earth, meaning the whole world. Yes I know the verdict, he passed judgement already by declaring his verdict when he says: "this is the verdict", men loved darkness, and hid their sin and would not come to the light.

But God loves the the whole wide world, there is no tongue that salvation will not reach as declared by scripture, his word goes out into all the earth. That does not mean that every man will accept it, it just means every man will be without excuse.

C'mon Lynn.

Cool. You have that verse memorized. What's the one after that? What are the three after that? What's the next verse -- the grand finale of what Jesus was saying?

You have a bit of what he said memorized. What's the rest? Because the rest defines the meaning of that particular "world."