God loves the sinner and hates the sin.
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K
Well no I am not shadow boxing by myself, because I seen a few previous posts where like always people are only stating from the parents view. You may still love your kids no matter what they do, but if they choose to never have anything to do with you again when they get older that is their choice.
This choice God gives us as well when it comes to salvation, for He tells us to choose to serve Him or choose to serve flesh/sin.
Serving Him leads to eternal life through Jesus Christ, but serving flesh/sin which is to be carnally minded and leads to spiritual death in the lake of fire. We can not serve both !!!
K
Well God does not take our free will away as some falsely teach.
God tells us in His word all over the place from the OT to the NT that we have the choice of where our fate ends up, by choosing who you deserve to serve determines rather you have eternal life or condemned to spiritual death in the lake of fire. If you choose putting your faith in Jesus Christ, then that means you also follow what He said to do !!!
God tells us in His word all over the place from the OT to the NT that we have the choice of where our fate ends up, by choosing who you deserve to serve determines rather you have eternal life or condemned to spiritual death in the lake of fire. If you choose putting your faith in Jesus Christ, then that means you also follow what He said to do !!!
S
This is gonna sound harsh but I have a lot of time...money...effort....falling down...getting back up... falling down again ...getting back up...needing help getting back up etc etc.......so if you think you can come on some internet forum and cram YOUR doubt about my own faith in Jesus down my throat and I'm gonna put much stock in it...you are mistaken. I've seen you make a few points that were right on but I put emphasis on few.
J
Your point is really illustrative and important. You see a lot of this. I think we're created common sense beings. If we know how to love our children, even the unregenerate, without God, by what measure does God not know how to love more? There is this principle in the Bible,
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
The reasonable proposition is put forth that, if we know how to do some good things, are we good, like God, do we hold a candle to His goodness? Not at all, of course. The same is true for children. Because Johnny didn't make his bed, you don't throw him into a fire pit. We don't have backyard crematoriums, and we'd have to burn us up, each and all, if we did. One unholy thought is a sin, just as the Lord pointed out how adultery is born of lust, and murder of hate, and you better believe there's a principle here for all things, great and small, which fall short of the glory of God: all sin. As a flesh being, you are not free from sin, at all, this why flesh is called corruptible in scripture. This is not rocket science, even painfully explained in Romans 7.
God hates sin, but is He throwing stones? Did He not pay for man's sin on the cross, even? Even to Holy God, the damning sin is not repenting, not changing one's mind and agreeing with God our lost, unholy, miserable state and the need for salvation. Lost creatures, who can, in no way, stand before the Creator in our own right, ever.
The evil of Revelation don't repent. You can't have faith in the Lord Jesus, absent repenting: you can't believe in our Holy Lord, having not changed your mind about your sinful state, without being completely humbled and broken at the foot of the cross and seeing your need for salvation and regeneration, that we are none unique this way. The issue is not even moral sins: it is unrepentance and unbelief that damns. If the issue were individual sins and falling short, nothing could save anybody! This is why grace is a gift, by faith in Jesus Christ, in His righteousness, in His work, clothed in His righteousness, alone. Simple as that. And don't go around diminishing, dishonoring His blood and His work, with your filthy rags self righteousness and doubt of the Lord's ability to save. Somebody who hasn't changed their mind and agreed with God who they are, and who He is, has never repented, in the first place.
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
The reasonable proposition is put forth that, if we know how to do some good things, are we good, like God, do we hold a candle to His goodness? Not at all, of course. The same is true for children. Because Johnny didn't make his bed, you don't throw him into a fire pit. We don't have backyard crematoriums, and we'd have to burn us up, each and all, if we did. One unholy thought is a sin, just as the Lord pointed out how adultery is born of lust, and murder of hate, and you better believe there's a principle here for all things, great and small, which fall short of the glory of God: all sin. As a flesh being, you are not free from sin, at all, this why flesh is called corruptible in scripture. This is not rocket science, even painfully explained in Romans 7.
God hates sin, but is He throwing stones? Did He not pay for man's sin on the cross, even? Even to Holy God, the damning sin is not repenting, not changing one's mind and agreeing with God our lost, unholy, miserable state and the need for salvation. Lost creatures, who can, in no way, stand before the Creator in our own right, ever.
The evil of Revelation don't repent. You can't have faith in the Lord Jesus, absent repenting: you can't believe in our Holy Lord, having not changed your mind about your sinful state, without being completely humbled and broken at the foot of the cross and seeing your need for salvation and regeneration, that we are none unique this way. The issue is not even moral sins: it is unrepentance and unbelief that damns. If the issue were individual sins and falling short, nothing could save anybody! This is why grace is a gift, by faith in Jesus Christ, in His righteousness, in His work, clothed in His righteousness, alone. Simple as that. And don't go around diminishing, dishonoring His blood and His work, with your filthy rags self righteousness and doubt of the Lord's ability to save. Somebody who hasn't changed their mind and agreed with God who they are, and who He is, has never repented, in the first place.
K
If you are taking it as harsh then you must be feeling the conviction from the Holy Spirit.
I however never made one statement condemning you or speaking from or causing doubt. I am using His clear word that says one can not continue to live however they want when walking in the faith. Apostle Paul and John both show the fruits of the Spirit will lead and guide one to walk properly, and then they also show the other side that those who do not walk accordingly to the faith do not have eternal life abiding in them.
I do not say these things from the bible to condemn a person as that is not the purpose, for the purpose of giving the truth in God's word is to help others to turn away from their sinful ways and walk properly in the faith. Which the fruits of the Spirit will be evident in how they walk, talk, and act toward others.
There is unfortunately two real bad and dangerous doctrines I see floating around on this site and in the world.
The first one being a easy-believism doctrine that teaches a person can continue to live however they want as long as they believe.
The other is an overly self-righteous doctrine that teaches others they no longer sin at all any more, and try to say that even sinning one more time will cost you your salvation....
Both are dangerous and do not teach the truth as one states a person can be sinful and still get salvation, and the other says you can not get salvation unless you are absolutely 100% perfect and never sin again. They both in their own way deny the concept of repentance and confession of our sins.............
The unregenerate has absolutely no free-will whatsoever in spiritual matters. This is not a false teaching but a true teaching of Apostle Paul. If you want to argue with him about that: Your choice. And certainly not a wise one.
The choice to serve and follow Christ comes after a person is regenerated. Not before that.
Are you sure you have chosen Christ?
The choice to serve and follow Christ comes after a person is regenerated. Not before that.
Are you sure you have chosen Christ?
J
Amen. Unregenerate man doesn't have a clue, regenerate man through a glass darkly, none on the face of the earth one thing to boast about.
Romans 3:11-18 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Psalms 14:1-3 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
3
Jason, if you keep placing your hope for eternal life in Heaven with Jesus on you keeping yourself sinless, I am afraid you will spend eternity in the hell you do not believe in.
I have done all I no to do to help you understand what everlasting means, but you continue to reject the truth.
May God have mercy on you soul.
I will no longer waste my time on you.
I have done all I no to do to help you understand what everlasting means, but you continue to reject the truth.
May God have mercy on you soul.
I will no longer waste my time on you.
J
It seems to me there's, "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'," as well as another type of fool. There's the lip service "Christian" who hasn't repented, holy Joe, full of church-speak, but full of doubt and demonstrably bad scripture exegesis, who is such that, "The fool has said in his heart there are two gods, self, and the One he doesn't really know."
Matthew 25:1-12 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
What was it, the Dairy Association or something, anybody remember those television commercials, "Got milk?" If there were a Holy Spirit Association, it would be, "Got born again?"
Matthew 25:1-12 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
What was it, the Dairy Association or something, anybody remember those television commercials, "Got milk?" If there were a Holy Spirit Association, it would be, "Got born again?"
If my child walks out the door and I never see him again - Is he/she still my child? Does he/she still carry my "seed"? (and it is corruptible seed, being flesh)
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - we are promised eternal life through believing in Jesus Christ. We confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead we are born again of incorruptible seed by the word of God - faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus is to now be our Lord - we are his brothers and sisters in the household of God (Heb. 2:11) . . . we have a heavenly Father who was also His Father. We are children in the household of God. Will we obey 24/7? I'm not sure that is possible - we can't even obey earthly parents 24/7! Once we are born again - we belong to God - we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) . . . we are seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) . . . we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) . . . we have a place reserved in heaven (1 Peter 1:4) . . you do notice that all these are said in the "past tense" as if it is already accomplished? It is an idiom (figure of speech) used for when a future event may be spoken of in the past tense in order to emphasize that it will absolutely come to pass.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - we are promised eternal life through believing in Jesus Christ. We confess him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead we are born again of incorruptible seed by the word of God - faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Jesus is to now be our Lord - we are his brothers and sisters in the household of God (Heb. 2:11) . . . we have a heavenly Father who was also His Father. We are children in the household of God. Will we obey 24/7? I'm not sure that is possible - we can't even obey earthly parents 24/7! Once we are born again - we belong to God - we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30) . . . we are seated in heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) . . . we are joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) . . . we have a place reserved in heaven (1 Peter 1:4) . . you do notice that all these are said in the "past tense" as if it is already accomplished? It is an idiom (figure of speech) used for when a future event may be spoken of in the past tense in order to emphasize that it will absolutely come to pass.
The Bible says:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
Well, it looks like God will make an exception for the Anti- Christ, the False Prophet, and everyone who takes the Anti-Christ's mark.
Doesn't Revelation tell us that people who take the mark of the beast will have no rest day or night?
Yes, they will indeed have "no rest," but when will this happen? It will be during the tribulation period while on this earth. It is important to note that in the previous verse, John wrote in the Greek future tense and refers to the Great White Throne Judgment where the lost will be tormented "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" on Judgment Day. This is a future event for John. The Greek tense is in the future.In this verse, John changes tenses. It is in the Greek present tense. This cannot be stressed enough. In his literal translation of the scriptures, Robert Young, compiler of the Analytical Concordance that bears his name, translates it into a perfect English translation-as John wrote it:
The apostle John writes this word "proskuneo" (worship/bowing) in the Greek present tense. The present tense is the tense he chooses to use to describe the rest of the events of Revelation that occur on the earth. So this must be while on earth since it is in the same Greek tense. Look at verse 9 in which the unsaved "worship" (also in the Greek present tense) the beast "and receive his mark." This is very important because it clearly occurs while on this earth. So, if the receiving of this mark (whatever it may be) is on this earth, then the worshipping in 14:11 must also be on this earth. Hence, the "no rest day or night" must occur on this earth as well.
The "no resting day or night" occurs while they are "bowing" and "worshipping" (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). John also tells us that painful sores break out on their body, "And there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:2) This is while they are on the earth.
Additionally–the very next verse states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Why is this important? Because "keeping" is in the very same tense! John's statement of those "who keep (present tense) the commandments" must be at the same time as those who have "no rest" and are "worshipping (present tense) the beast." Therefore–this is conclusive proof that these both occur on the earth. Need more proof? Well, the same Greek word and tense of "worship" (of God this time) is also used in Revelation 11:1 where it is absolutely clear that the "worship" is going on in the present tense upon this earth. Let me repeat–Revelation 11:1, 14:11, 16:2, all have the same Greek tense! You have to make them all be acts of "worship" while upon this earth.
Therefore, how can anyone "rest day or night" when they have painful such sores on their body and are forced to worship the beast? (Revelation 14:11 & 16:2). And John specifically tells us when this worshipping shall occur-it is when they "dwell upon the earth." "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." (Revelation 13:8) So the worshipping and the no resting both occur while upon this earth.
Revelation 20:10 is dealing with demons and not humans. The word "ever" is taken from the Greek word "aion" which means "age." So the devil and his demonic false prophet or minion will be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. This makes sense because the devil and his minions had tormented mankind for thousands of years (i.e. many ages). So when justice is met.... they too will be destroyed and erased from existence. In fact, we know that the devil will be destroyed according to Scripture. How so?
Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.
Also, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This makes the assumption that there are other enemies before death that have been destroyed (Whether death is physical entity and or a power).
In any event, I hope that what I said here has comforted you. But please do not take my word for it. Search the Scriptures for yourself and pray over them and double check it for yourself. Let the Lord guide you into all truth by asking Him (Jeremiah 33:3).
Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: I do not hold to all views or beliefs by this author; Especially the author's false view of "soul sleep" and the author's false view that the Richman and Lazarus is just a parable).
Yes, they will indeed have "no rest," but when will this happen? It will be during the tribulation period while on this earth. It is important to note that in the previous verse, John wrote in the Greek future tense and refers to the Great White Throne Judgment where the lost will be tormented "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" on Judgment Day. This is a future event for John. The Greek tense is in the future.In this verse, John changes tenses. It is in the Greek present tense. This cannot be stressed enough. In his literal translation of the scriptures, Robert Young, compiler of the Analytical Concordance that bears his name, translates it into a perfect English translation-as John wrote it:
"And they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image." (Young's Literal Translation–Revelation 14:11)
The apostle John writes this word "proskuneo" (worship/bowing) in the Greek present tense. The present tense is the tense he chooses to use to describe the rest of the events of Revelation that occur on the earth. So this must be while on earth since it is in the same Greek tense. Look at verse 9 in which the unsaved "worship" (also in the Greek present tense) the beast "and receive his mark." This is very important because it clearly occurs while on this earth. So, if the receiving of this mark (whatever it may be) is on this earth, then the worshipping in 14:11 must also be on this earth. Hence, the "no rest day or night" must occur on this earth as well.
The "no resting day or night" occurs while they are "bowing" and "worshipping" (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). John also tells us that painful sores break out on their body, "And there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:2) This is while they are on the earth.
Additionally–the very next verse states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Why is this important? Because "keeping" is in the very same tense! John's statement of those "who keep (present tense) the commandments" must be at the same time as those who have "no rest" and are "worshipping (present tense) the beast." Therefore–this is conclusive proof that these both occur on the earth. Need more proof? Well, the same Greek word and tense of "worship" (of God this time) is also used in Revelation 11:1 where it is absolutely clear that the "worship" is going on in the present tense upon this earth. Let me repeat–Revelation 11:1, 14:11, 16:2, all have the same Greek tense! You have to make them all be acts of "worship" while upon this earth.
Therefore, how can anyone "rest day or night" when they have painful such sores on their body and are forced to worship the beast? (Revelation 14:11 & 16:2). And John specifically tells us when this worshipping shall occur-it is when they "dwell upon the earth." "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." (Revelation 13:8) So the worshipping and the no resting both occur while upon this earth.
Revelation 20:10 is dealing with demons and not humans. The word "ever" is taken from the Greek word "aion" which means "age." So the devil and his demonic false prophet or minion will be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. This makes sense because the devil and his minions had tormented mankind for thousands of years (i.e. many ages). So when justice is met.... they too will be destroyed and erased from existence. In fact, we know that the devil will be destroyed according to Scripture. How so?
Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.
Also, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This makes the assumption that there are other enemies before death that have been destroyed (Whether death is physical entity and or a power).
In any event, I hope that what I said here has comforted you. But please do not take my word for it. Search the Scriptures for yourself and pray over them and double check it for yourself. Let the Lord guide you into all truth by asking Him (Jeremiah 33:3).
Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: I do not hold to all views or beliefs by this author; Especially the author's false view of "soul sleep" and the author's false view that the Richman and Lazarus is just a parable).
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P
sigh.
okay, i can go with you on the idea of 'conditional immortality' in a way.
but it ain't conditioned on our performance.
it's conditioned on Christ's perfect performance for us.
that's the Gospel, Jason. it's not about us and what we do.
it's a gift of Righteousness we receive from God.
we obey, and that's important, but it is not what gets us into or keeps us in God's Kingdom.
ps--if you aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit (God's mark) you have the other one.
just that simple.
okay, i can go with you on the idea of 'conditional immortality' in a way.
but it ain't conditioned on our performance.
it's conditioned on Christ's perfect performance for us.
that's the Gospel, Jason. it's not about us and what we do.
it's a gift of Righteousness we receive from God.
we obey, and that's important, but it is not what gets us into or keeps us in God's Kingdom.
ps--if you aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit (God's mark) you have the other one.
just that simple.