The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

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sparkman

Guest
I explained Hebrews 4. I put the whole book in context. I am not a verse plucker like the Torah observers are. Their superficial analysis of Scriptures is pathetic.

There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:9-11)

Nothing could be simpler.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
The Old Covenant had a ministry of condemnation and death. Read II Corinthians 3. Something you won't hear quoted much from Judaizers. They also won't quote the parts about those who are obsessed with the Old Covenant being blinded until God takes away the blindness. Note the underlined parts.

II Cor 3: 1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our[SUP]a[/SUP] hearts, to be known and read by all. 3And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.[SUP]b[/SUP]
4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one[SUP]c[/SUP] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord[SUP]d[/SUP] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[SUP]e[/SUP] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

By the way, God also was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son, so the same penalty apparently applied to circumcision. Like the Sabbath, circumcision was a sign of the Old Covenant. As we have discussed, the Old Covenant is between God and Israel, not between God and Christians.

Exodus 4: 24At a lodging place on the way the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. 25Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’[SUP]c[/SUP] feet with it and said, “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!” 26So he let him alone. It was then that she said, “A bridegroom of blood,” because of the circumcision.


Yes the old covenant carried a ministry of condemnation and death by the written ordinances.

Which is what the Jews focused to much on and which why Jesus made the statement that they focused on such but forgot to see the underlining truth of the law. They focused to much on condemning and putting to death those who broke any of the Mosaic laws, and not on how it showed a better way to live.

Lord Jesus came in and showed that the better way to live was to walk in love for all others.

There is still condemnation and death still to this day.
However the condemnation is to those who walk by the flesh and not by the Spirit, as walking by the flesh means the person is continuing to willfully sin, be carnal minded, and obey their lusts. Walking by the Spirit means you walk by His guidance, teachings, and the gifts (fruits) of the Spirit.

Also the death under the new covenant for sinning is not physical death in the flesh, but spiritual death in the lake of fire for those who do not believe and also those who do not obey the gospel of Christ. To walk accordingly to His teachings and commands as Apostle Paul shows a true faith by love will uphold..............
 
Apr 25, 2015
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Something to consider: If you dislike obeying God's commandments, the kingdom of God probably isn't for you...

11412351_889311591128071_1119425546837600529_n.jpg
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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@ Grandpa

For me, Bible study comes with 2 important rules that must be followed:
1. Always let the Bible interpret itself. Never insert your own interpretation into it.
2. Be willing to let the Bible change your beliefs. If you're close-minded about your beliefs, it will do you no good to study.

^ Now, bearing these 2 rules in mind, lets take a look at the passage you just quoted again:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to read Galatians 4-5 with this question in mind: Was Paul reprimanding the Galatians because they were observing God's law? Or was he reprimanding them because they were trying to be JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.(2 Peter 3:16)

I'm truly amazed by how careless people are with Paul's word's, despite this powerful warning about the ignorant and unstable misusing them.

Your record keeps skipping and repeating the same wrong things over and over.

It comes from your indoctrination in a false religion. Its why you use your complete judaizers bible instead of the real bible.

2 Peter 3:16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I noticed you post verses 16 and 17 a lot but never include verse 18. Is verse 18 in the complete judaizers bible?

What is the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Well it starts here;

Matthew 11:28 [SUP] [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

There's that word rest, again.

I wonder what that's all about?

Hebrews 4:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Let us enter into that rest and not fall after the error of the wicked, unbelief. Ohhhh, wooops. You thought the error of the wicked was not working at the law....

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Clearly, the error of the wicked is committed by those who remain under the curse.


Unbelief is what causes someone to remain stuck in their work at the law. They don't believe that Christ can give them rest. They don't believe they can enter into the rest of God. So they remain under the law. Still waiting to come to Christ.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


The faith that is still left to be revealed to you is rest in Christ. Unfortunately for you, your religion has you stuck in your works at the law, as does the version of the bible you read.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 
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Karraster

Guest
Hi called4christ. No, they aren't intended to cause confusion or division. Just to help people see that the whole bible is still true and directly relevent in our lives. Saying that certain commandments of God no longer apply directly contradicts what both Jesus and Paul say in the NT. As Peter warned in 2 Peter Chapter 3, ignorant and unstable people are attemping to twist Pauls words into something they aren't.
Hi, welcome to the forum. I've not visited lately, and it's been refreshing to read your posts, glad you're here.:) Hold fast to truth friend, for it a rare treasure. Many say they just "love Jesus"..but they don't even bother to read what He says..so...guard your heart, and be aware of the Jezebel spirit who hates Almighty's instructions, and anyone who teaches them. shalom.





 
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Karraster

Guest
we act like Jews who know Yahweh, because we know Yahweh, and love Him , and are called according to HIS PURPOSE in Yahshua Hamashiach (Jesus Messiah King LORD(remember? LORD!)
Hi, my understanding is, Paul uses "Jews" and "Israel" interchangeably...so..if we are grafted into Israel, we don't mind one bit being called a Jew. ..in fact, it's an honor. If it's good enough for Messiah, it's surely good indeed.:)
 
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Karraster

Guest
So do you make women in your house pitch a tent in the backyard and not come in the house for 7 days when the monthly cycle hits? DO you then make them go see your Pastor and he pronounces them clean, before letting them back in the house?
great. every mature discussion about the Creator's instructions should always include sanitary measures. Nowadays there are lot's of neat inventions..have you heard of them? for example, we don't usually "squat" in the woods like a bear, so we do not have to cover it up when we're finished we simply flush.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I emphasized the key prepositions, possessives and verbs in each of the passages you've shared. I also shared the Greek originals for each of the words if it was distinguished. Note the word doesn't use "with" ["Meth" in Greek]. In other words, your own passages show that one isn't sanctified simply because they possess the Holy Spirit. Rather, sanctification is a WORK; a process of the Holy Spirit in a person, guiding them and REMINDING them of Christ's words. So I agree, with your following portion...



Exactly. We are sanctified [i.e. a process of becoming holy for God; set apart] through Christ's words, ALL of Christ's words. All of them. So big question is, what did Christ say?





Sorry, but your conclusion above doesn't follow...but you've laid great proof for what does, so let's follow this out...


1) Sanctification is through the Holy Spirit...Check.

2) Sanctification is through God's truth, who is Christ...Check.

3) Anyone who doesn't have Christ's Spirit in them doesn't belong to Christ...Check.

4) Christ is the only way to the Father. There is no other way...Check.


NOW...where does that leave us? Of course that leaves us with needing Christ's spirit in us, as I'm sure you agree. So How do we receive Christ's spirit in us?


John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


- The words Christ spoke/speaks are life.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks are his spirit.



John 15:3

You are clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Ephesians 5:25-26
...just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,


- The words Christ spoke/speaks clean.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks sanctify.



Luke 6:46-48
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

47"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.



- To hear and do what Christ says, makes Christ one's lord.
- To hear and do Christ's words, builds their house upon the rock.



What words did Christ speak? What did Christ say to do?

Matthew 19:17 & 20
...If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.

21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.



- The words Christ spoke/speaks were keep the commandments to enter life.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks were to follow him to be complete.



Luke 10:25-28
"Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And [Christ] said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"

27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

28 And [Christ] said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."…



- The greatest commandments Christ spoke/speaks are read in God's law.
- The words Christ spoke/speaks was to do what is written in God's law in order to live.



John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


- To Believe in Christ will grant everlasting life.



John 5:47
If you don't believe what Moses wrote, how will you ever believe what I say?"

- To not believe in Moses' writings is to not believe in Christ's words



John 14:15-17, 23-24 & 26

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

24"He who does not love Me does not keep My words;

26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.



- If a person loves Christ they will keep Christ's words
- If a person keeps Christ's words they receive The Spirit of Truth
- The Holy Spirit will remind a person of ALL of Christ's words
- If a person keeps Christ's words Christ lives in them
- But if a person does not keep Christ's words, they do not love Christ (no matter how much they say they do)



So with this truth we can restate the 4 points above:

1) Sanctification is through Christ's words

2) Sanctification is through God's truth, which are Christ's words

3) Anyone who doesn't have Christ's words in them doesn't belong to Christ

4) Christ's words is the only way to the Father. There is no other way

----

Sanctification IS about obedience to the commandments, which are Christ's words...and Christ's words are the Commandments. To love Christ is to obey God's commandments. Note that the only path to holiness (i.e. sanctification) is indeed through Christ alone:

Through his spirit > which is what he said > his words > THE Word > The Law > God's Commandments

Christ IS the word (God's Law)...The Word (God's Law) IS Christ. They ARE him. He IS they. This is why it's so critically important to follow the commandments, because that's the only way we can GUARANTEE that we have CHRIST'S Spirit in us and not a counterfeit's spirit.
Wow, thank you for your posts! It's encouraging to see one who studies and cares about the Word!
 
Apr 25, 2015
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Hi, welcome to the forum. I've not visited lately, and it's been refreshing to read your posts, glad you're here.:) Hold fast to truth friend, for it a rare treasure. Many say they just "love Jesus"..but they don't even bother to read what He says..so...guard your heart, and be aware of the Jezebel spirit who hates Almighty's instructions, and anyone who teaches them. shalom.






Hmm. You just gave me an excellent study for next shabbat. I gotta start reading about this Jezebel spirit. It sounds familiar. Thanks for stopping by.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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Are you under a curse if you are sacrificing animals for your atonement?

Or are there blessings in that too? Reminding you of Christ?
 
Apr 25, 2015
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@ Grandpa


When it comes to sacrifices, the big misconception of mainstream christianity is that you can't believe in the messiah, but still offer gifts to God. When Abel offered the first sacrifice, does it not say that God liked his gift? And when Noah offered burnt offerings after they came out of the ark, does it not say that the Lord "smelled the pleasing aroma of the burnt offering"?
There should be no question that the Lord likes burnt offerings. They aren't just about atonement for sins. Otherwise, the Messiah himself wouldn't have said that HE HIMSELF will eat the passover lamb in the kingdom of God.
And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:16)
Ezekiel chapter 46 goes into great detail about the sacrificial system being restored during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ. So anyone who says "animal sacrifices are never coming back" have disceived themselves.
 
Apr 25, 2015
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Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy. (Ezekiel 20:12)

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Apr 25, 2015
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The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8:7)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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@ Grandpa


When it comes to sacrifices, the big misconception of mainstream christianity is that you can't believe in the messiah, but still offer gifts to God. When Abel offered the first sacrifice, does it not say that God liked his gift? And when Noah offered burnt offerings after they came out of the ark, does it not say that the Lord "smelled the pleasing aroma of the burnt offering"?
There should be no question that the Lord likes burnt offerings. They aren't just about atonement for sins. Otherwise, the Messiah himself wouldn't have said that HE HIMSELF will eat the passover lamb in the kingdom of God.
And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:16)
Ezekiel chapter 46 goes into great detail about the sacrificial system being restored during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ. So anyone who says "animal sacrifices are never coming back" have disceived themselves.
Luke 22:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't say He will eat the Passover Lamb in the kingdom of God.

He says that is the last passover He will eat until the Passover is Fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.

You don't know that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Passover, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?


Hebrews 8:4-7

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
 
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sparkman

Guest
Eliwood, I am not monitoring this thread anymore but I did want to interject a few comments.

In relation to the influence of heretical organizations such as the Armstrongite cult of Restored Church of God and 119ministries and other Judaizing organizations, I would like to recommend a few things.

One, read these books of the Bible, either with a good commentary or alone: Romans, Galatians, Colossians, Hebrews. Don't just skim over them; read each verse and ask yourself what the context really is. If you can't figure it out, read commentaries. Ask yourself whether the assertions of the commentary writers are reasonable given the context.

Two, consider the other point of view from THEIR materials. These cults misrepresent the other point of view. That is how you fall into bondage to them. Whether these teachers are deceived themselves or are actively seeking to deceive others, I do not know. I would suppose that if they were in a real relationship with God, they would fear to do the latter, but I believe there are wicked people who do such things. They are tools of Satan, so either way, there are evil forces behind it.

Read this proverb

Proverbs 18:13 If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.

This reflects the fact that fools decide something before hearing the other side of the argument.

Three, if you continue on and join one of those heretical groups, don't close your mind to their inconsistencies. You will be presented with them. The tendency is to justify their inconsistencies, doctrinally and behaviorally, because you think they represent God. That should be the real warning sign that you are brainwashed.

Four, you can depend on me addressing potential heretical conversations in the chat room every time I am there. I won't allow others to be swayed by bad doctrine, especially younger believers of any age. And, it's not only me; there's plenty of sound believers in the chat room who won't allow Judaizing to be pushed there.

Regarding the comments in the room yesterday, faith produces salvation produces obedience. Obedience is not to ceremonial or ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant such as physical circumcision, the weekly Sabbath, holy days, new moons, clean and unclean meats, or tithing laws. So, obedience is a necessary fruit of salvation, but it is never perfect and it is not obedience to the Old Covenant. New Covenant Christians are not under the Old Covenant. Obviously moral absolutes were reflected in the Old Covenant, and are part of the New Covenant, but they didn't "carry over"..they are simply moral absolutes that apply to everyone at all times. The above elements are not part of that. They were specific to ancient Israel.

I am not inconsistent and I do include tithing as part of the Old Covenant. So does my church. Giving is by free will and not by compulsion. That's another piece of propaganda from the Judaizers..and they can find particular churches that teach tithing as a Christian obligation, but there are other churches that are perfectly consistent with free will giving in regards to this. This is another misrepresentation that I've seen you conveying here.

I don't really blame you for parroting their theology. I did the same thing as a 22 year old fooled by Herbert Armstrong's false teachings.

Anyways I am not monitoring this thread so I likely won't see the response but I wanted to make these comments.
 
Apr 25, 2015
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@Grandpa

I don't think the word "fulfill" means the same thing as "abolish". Maybe that's the issue here. Here's how the websters dictionary defines it:

ful·fill
fo͝olˈfil/
verb
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

  • 1.
    bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he wouldn't be able to fulfill his ambition to visit Naples"[/COLOR]
    [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
    [TD]achieve, attain, realize, actualize, make happen, succeed in, bring to completion, bring to fruition, satisfy"he fulfilled his ambition to travel the world"


    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]






    • [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]





  • 2.
    carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"some officials were dismissed because they could not fulfill their duties"


    [/COLOR]



 
Apr 25, 2015
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And here's how it defines abolish:

a·bol·ish
əˈbäliSH/
verb
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

  • formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution).



 
Apr 25, 2015
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Remember colossians 2:17? The verse you guys always like to quote to make it sounds like God abolished his feast days?

These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:17)


It's clear that the Passover is a shadow of Christs's sacrifice. Just like the other feast days foreshadow other future event that are still yet to come. Like the Millenial reign (feast of tabernacles) or the day Satan will sealed up in the bottomless pit (day of atonement). Pentecost (or the feast of firstfruits) also foreshadowed the birth of the church.

Anyway, I need to apologize again, because you've managed to offend me, and cause me to get argumentative.
 
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sparkman

Guest
The Day of Atonement is about Jesus Christ.

The Armstrongite view of the Day of Atonement is false.

The two goats portrayed two different aspects of Christ's sacrifice. The first aspect is that his blood was shed for us. The second aspect is that he bore our sins away, outside of the camp, like the second goat.

I realize that destroys the false chronology that Armstrongites claim, but it's pretty basic.

In addition, the Feast of Tabernacles relates to Jesus becoming flesh and dwelling amongst us. He "tabernacled" amongst us. It points directly to the Incarnation.


Remember colossians 2:17? The verse you guys always like to quote to make it sounds like God abolished his feast days?

These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:17)


It's clear that the Passover is a shadow of Christs's sacrifice. Just like the other feast days foreshadow other future event that are still yet to come. Like the Millenial reign (feast of tabernacles) or the day Satan will sealed up in the bottomless pit (day of atonement). Pentecost (or the feast of firstfruits) also foreshadowed the birth of the church.

Anyway, I need to apologize again, because you've managed to offend me, and cause me to get argumentative.