POLL: The Deity of Christ

[flob]

The word "organic" does not appear in the bible.

The word 'mingling' does, to which I refer.
As does the word 'life.'
A lot. Referring, variously, to God's life, as well as human life.
Which is what, from the beginning of my usage, was the simple sense I said in which I meant 'organic.'

Like I said earlier son, you need to be listening, not talking. You are obviously in way over your head. You are totally misrepresenting the use of anthropomorphism in scripture.

Lol. You apparently neither know the Scriptures nor the power of God.
And I apologize for you for your arrogance

 

[oldhermit]

The word 'mingling' does, to which I refer.
As does the word 'life'.
A lot. Referring, variously, to God's life, as well as human life.
Which is what, from the beginning of my usage, was the simple sense I said in which I meant 'organic'.

The word for mingled in the Greek is μίγνυμι not organikós. Do not presume to argue about something when you do not have sufficient background knowledge.

Lol. You apparently neither know the Scriptures nor the power of God.
And I apologize for you for your arrogance

Let me see, you are 15 years old. How long have you been studying the Bible? 3,4,5 years maybe? Yet, you presume to correct someone who has been teaching and preaching the Bible longer than your parents have been alive. I cannot help but wonder in which of us the arrogance lies.

 

[senzi]

I've been reading a commentary of 2 Corinthians by George Guthrie. In the preface, he goes deeply into the words in Greek. He also shows how Paul connected his thoughts, used parallelism to connect the beginning and the end of the book, and rebuts claims that the book was put together with fragments of several letters, and shows the connections, the words repeated etc etc.

I love 2 Corinthians, but I was not aware of how incredibly skillful Paul was at using Greek writing style in his letter. Because I really don't know much about Greek writing styles. (I know a little more after reading this commentary)

It has greatly enhanced my understanding of the Bible, and I am learning and growing with each page. Meanwhile, I am reading the 2 Cor. in English and Greek, so what he is saying has more impact. The Holy Spirit is using this book for me to grow in the knowledge of the truth!

That is what the academics is about. It is going well beyond just reading the verses, to really seeing the hand of God directing each writer in the Bible to express his will, and to do it well.

When you read in the Greek (and I'm not saying everyone needs to do this!) you begin to see marked differences in the language, the grammar and word order between the different New Testament writers. For instance, 1, 2 & 3rd John have very simple language. I literally read it straight through on the first reading.

Paul's writing if far more complex. In Romans, where he gets into deep theological concepts, the words used are incredibly difficult and not common. A lot of work for me to read Romans!

So all I am saying, is don't put down academics. The Holy Spirit has led me to a deeper level of understanding of the Bible through my academic studies. My husband though, just reads the NIV and learns from that. God guides and leads us as he gifts us. My husband is a wonderful Christian man, lead by God. But he doesn't appear to want to go deep into the Bible, like I need to do. We are both serving God, and together we are working to expand the Kingdom of God.

Hi Angela
I love ronans it is ny favourite epistle of Paul's. I haven't read it in the Greek, but I know someone who has. They believe when Paul spoke of not being under the law he did not mean that included the ten commandments. So I guess it doesn't always help to gave a great academic mind and the ability to read free does it

 

[flob]

The word for mingled in the Greek is μίγνυμι not organikós. Do not presume to argue about something when you do not have sufficient background knowledge.

Are you trying to be stupid? Because you might, possibly, not need to try that hard.
Organic and Mingling are two separate words

Let me see, you are 15 years old. How long have you been studying the Bible? 3,4,5 years maybe? Yet, you presume to correct someone who has been teaching and preaching the Bible longer than your parents have been alive.

So you think you're accurate about the Bible...........because of your age?
That's like saying there's no such thing as old heretics.
This is what I meant about please don't try to be dumb, sir.

cannot help but wonder in which of us the arrogance lies.

If you're serious, then please reexamine your statements, including the last one about your age
attempting to substitute for Spirit or truth. And see what that silliness reflects

 

[oldhermit]

Are you trying to be stupid? Because you might, possibly, not need to try that hard.
Organic and Mingling are two separate words

They are two separate words with two separate meanings and not even from the same root. These are not Greek synonyms.

So you think you're accurate about the Bible...........because of your age?
That's like saying there's no such thing as old heretics.
This is what I meant about please don't try to be dumb, sir.

If you're serious, then please reexamine your statements, including the last one about your age
attempting to substitute for Spirit or truth. And see what that silliness reflects

I meant what I said.

 

[oldhermit]

Are you trying to be stupid? Because you might, possibly, not need to try that hard.
Organic and Mingling are two separate words

There is a forum for teens on this site. Perhaps your time would be better spent there.

 

[flob]

Elin writes: "Distinct" and "separate" are synonyms.

If that's how you're using them, thank you for clarifying that.
I find that 'separate' is stronger than 'distinct.'
In other words things can be connected, but still distinct.
If things are connected, but they are separate, that strikes my ear as illogic and contradiction.

Your distinction between them is without a difference.

I beg to differ. But if now we understand one another, I will try to use your, or different words, to try to communicate with you.

The Trinity are separate in their personhood, not in their Godhood. . .three persons in one God.

Okay.....that's an improvement to merely stating that They are separate. To revert to my terms for the barest second,
Father and Son are distinct persons in that They communicate to One Another (and love One Another). But They are not
separate or separated, persons, in that They indwell One Another.

God does not have a single personality, he has a single essence, substance......Deity, divinity.

Yes, God is Father, Son, and Spirit. But They are One in intention, desire, goal, purpose, in regard to us.
'Deity and divinity' sound to me....................like God. In which case you're revealing that God's single
substance is God. I agree, and I'd also point out that as the Scripture uses the word, or names of, 'God':
God is a person as well

In response to the question "In what sense does Elin not have 3 Gods?"
Viligant_Warrior writes: We do. But only if you attempt to understand God in human terms, which is your major error.

Maybe I don't.
Which is an error. Maybe I don't understand.
VW is saying she or he DOES have 3 Gods? DOES NOT have 3 Gods?
The original question was not an accusation. But rather was a question. With a nonrhetorical question mark.
As far as my 'major error,' lol..............asking a question is major error?
I'm not the One who created humans. God did. In His image, He goes so far as to say. Yes, I agree, at least I cannot
fully, or very much, lower the all-transcendent mysterious beginningless Reproducing 3-1 God to beneath my intellect.
But what do you mean by 'human terms,' VW?

 

[Elin]

'Organic' means 'of living things.

"Things" are material, they are matter, made of atoms and molecules.

The spirit realm is not material, it is immaterial.

flob should try epistomylogy.

To think 'organic' means 'physical' is simple unfamiliarity with English.

At least in Merriam-Webster online, the definition of 'organic' preceding 'carbon' is:
2a : of, relating to, or arising in a bodily organ
b : affecting the structure of the organism
3
a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>

You're missing the English dictionary's assigned meaning of 'organic.' Which is much broader than your limited, physical concept.

Do you even read what you post?

Your unfinished education of a 15-year-old is showing. . .

 

[flob]

Elim........i'm sad to say your arrogance is showing.
I used a valid dictionary definition of organic.
of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution>.

The same, online, dictionary defines 'organism' as:
an individual living thing.


Very broad. Very general. If you show your questioners or debaters.............even a little grace.....
as the Savior has more than done for us.............then perhaps you'd be less strident and overbearing.
I even clarified, in my post, that by 'organic' I simply meant living.
Like I said, if you insist on the 'carbon' definition for 'organic,' then.................now we understand one another.
Or at least I understand you. And will try to accommodate you if I address any of your comments again,
whether you read it or not

 

[Elin]

But the profound reality is that when the Bible says
the Word became flesh, it
means God mingled with man.

Nope. . .you're using the wrong language.

Well, I won't apologize for preferring the Bible's language and terms to yours.
But thanks for your thoughtful 'nopes.'
They give me something to go on

Nope. . .the Bible's language is not God "mingled (mignumi) with" man.

The Bible's language is "the Word was made (man) flesh (sarx)".
Mignumi is nowhere used in relation to the manhood of God the Son.

And "organic" is also not a Bible term.

Who wrote your bible?

 

[oldhermit]

Nope. . .the Bible's language is not God "mingled (mignumi) with" man.

The Bible's language is "the Word was made (man) flesh (sarx)".
Mignumi is nowhere used in relation to the manhood of God the Son.

And "organic" is also not a Bible term.

Who wrote your bible?

The best thing to do is just ignore him. You are not going to be able to teach this young man anything.

 

[Elin]

From dictionary.com

See?
This person is actually trying.
Thanks for your 'light' that 'organic' is derived from 'organ.'
But you misconstrue language if you think it's unchangeable or bound to its origins.
Christ compares Himself to the Vine. Likewise He has a Body, the church. Which is not plant or
nonhuman, but is fairly 'organic' in keeping with His own definitions

So the man Christ is literally a physical vine. . .with leaves?

So the man Christ is literally all the physical bodies of the believers?

Your unfinished education of a 15-year-old is not up to this task.

 

[flob]

In one of the first posts where I mentioned the word 'mingled,' I cited it's source in the typology.
I'll do so again, quote you from my Bible.
When you present an offering of a meal offering baked in the oven, it shall be of fine flour, unleavened cakes mingled with oil or unleavened wafers anointed with oil. Leviticus 2:4.
Do you follow some of the typology? Such as oil and unleavened?


Also, to repeat, The Word became flesh, isn't the Only Bible language about the Son's humanity.
You're not saying it's the Only such, are you?




In regard to 'organic,' I'm sorry you're still hung up on that. Since it's hard for you to grasp its various possible meanings,
I promise not to use it with you. But we can still use words you 'like,' like 'essence,' (if you like it), since it's in the Bible?

So the man Christ is literally a physical vine. . .with leaves?

No. But He uses plant terms to describe Himself and His church

So the man Christ is literally all the physical bodies of the believers?

Well, He gives Life to our mortal bodies, and eventually swallows up that which is mortal with
Immortality. And also tells the sheep and goats that what they did to His brothers, they did to Him.
Like He told Saul, Why do you persecute Me........

But we can say 'no' to your question. Although Paul uses carbon-based bodily terms, like 'ears and eyes'
to describe the members of the Body of Christ. I guess we could say Paul uses 'organic' descriptions.
Sorry-------I promised not to say the 'o' word to you. Forgive me

 

[Elin]

"Distinct" and "separate" are synonyms.

If that's how you're using them, thank you for clarifying that.
I find that 'separate' is stronger than 'distinct.'
In other words things can be connected, but still distinct.

In a herd of cattle, each cow is distinct; separate.

If things are connected, but they are separate, that strikes my ear as illogic and contradiction.

OK, but synonyms are synonyms. . .based on their assigned meanings, not on how they strike our ear,
and we need to keep their meanings in mind when using them and reading them.

In the spirit realm they are separate in their personhood, not in their Godhood. . .three persons in one God.

Okay.....that's an improvement to merely stating that They are separate. To revert to my terms for the barest second,
Father and Son are distinct persons in that They communicate to One Another (and love One Another). But They are not
separate or separated, persons, in that They indwell One Another.

OKay. . .that part is not correct.

Let's assume timelessness for this next example:
My father is in me in that he sired me from his own person.
I am in my father in that I was in his seed.

But that does not mean my father indwells me, nor that I indwell my father.

Eternity is timeless.
In the spirit realm, God the Father eternally begets God the Son, God the Father does not indwell God the Son,
and God the Son is eternally begotten by God the Father, God the Son does not indwell God the Father.

Yes, God is Father, Son, and Spirit. But They are One in intention, desire, goal, purpose, in regard to us.
'Deity and divinity' sound to me....................like God. In which case you're revealing that God's single
substance is God. I agree, and I'd also point out that as the Scripture uses the word, or names of, 'God':
God is a person as well

Agreed. . .

 

[Elin]

Elim........i'm sad to say your arrogance is showing.
I used a valid dictionary definition of organic.
of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution>.

The same, online, dictionary defines 'organism' as:
an individual living thing.

Things are material, made of atoms and molecules.

Spirits are immaterial, non-physical, non-corporeal.

Very broad. Very general. If you show your questioners or debaters.............even a little grace.....
as the Savior has more than done for us.............then perhaps you'd be less strident and overbearing.
I even clarified, in my post, that by 'organic' I simply meant living.
Like I said, if you insist on the 'carbon' definition for 'organic,' then.................now we understand one another.
Or at least I understand you. And will try to accommodate you if I address any of your comments again,
whether you read it or not

I appreciate you attitude, and will respond accordingly.

 

[Elin]

In one of the first posts where I mentioned the word 'mingled,' I cited it's source in the typology.
I'll do so again, quote you from my Bible.
When you present an offering of a meal offering baked in the oven, it shall be of fine flour, unleavened cakes mingled with oil or unleavened wafers anointed with oil. Leviticus 2:4.
Do you follow some of the typology? Such as oil and unleavened?

I am quite familiar with typology.

But the NT presents no typology for the mingling of flour and oil.

Also, to repeat, The Word became flesh, isn't the Only Bible language about the Son's humanity.
You're not saying it's the Only such, are you?

It's the only language regarding God becoming man in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

In regard to 'organic,' I'm sorry you're still hung up on that. Since it's hard for you to grasp its various possible meanings,
I promise not to use it with you. But we can still use words you 'like,' like
'essence,' (if you like it), since it's in the Bible?

Actually, "essence" is not in the Bible.

Neither is "organic" as life.

So the man Christ is literally a physical vine. . .with leaves?

No. But He uses plant terms to describe Himself and His church

Is an analogy a representation of the reality, or the reality itself?

So the man Christ is literally all the physical bodies of the believers?

Well, He gives Life to our mortal bodies, and eventually swallows up that which is mortal with
Immortality.

So you think he actually swallows something?

And also tells the sheep and goats that what they did to His brothers, they did to Him.
Like He told Saul, Why do you persecute Me........

Yes, God the Holy Spirit indwells believers.

But we can say 'no' to your question. Although Paul uses carbon-based bodily terms, like 'ears and eyes'
to describe the members of the Body of Christ. I guess we could say Paul uses 'organic' descriptions.

Yes, because the Church is believers' physical bodies.

Sorry-------I promised not to say the 'o' word to you. Forgive me

You may only use it correctly. . .

 

[Sophia]

I am under the impression that God is not as divisible as the doctrine of the Trinity makes Him,
and yet not as simple as Unitarians make Him.

When we talk about Jesus Christ, we are talking about someone who was both man and God. It is tough to describe that in any detail without failing miserably.

I don't know if Arius got it right, or Theodotus, or Apollinaris, or Jerome, or Augustine.
I side more with Theodotus and Apollinaris, but they contradict each other, and are both considered "heresy".

What is clear is that Jesus Christ is Lord, and seated at the right hand of the Father.
I'm not sure that the details are actually important. They will be made known on the Last Day.

 

[flob]

Amen Sophia: Jesus Christ is Lord. Now in regard to Elin....

In a herd of cattle, each cow is distinct; separate.

Unlike Father, Son, and Spirit, herd cows are not inside one another.
Jn 10:38 The Father is in Me and I am in the Father.

but synonyms are synonyms. . . and we need to keep their meanings in mind when using them and reading them.

I am not the one who originated 'distinct but not separate.' I think Chalcedon was, around 400.
I will look for the Christian source that assigned distinct meanings to 'distinct' vs 'separate.'

OKay. . .that part is not correct.
Let's assume timelessness for this next example:
My father is in me in that he sired me from his own person.
I am in my father in that I was in his seed.
But that does not mean my father indwells me, nor that I indwell my father.

Thank you for clarifying that to me, Elin.
I understand that Levi was 'in' Abraham when he gave tithes to Melchisedek.
But the Son of God said both that:
"The Father is in Me and I am in the Father" (Jn 10:38)
AND
"I am in the Father and the Father is in Me" (Jn 14:11).
As well as that the Son was already eternally- begotten of the Father when He said this,
and as well the Son does not beget His Father.
Next, nor are John 10:38; 14:11; and 17:21 in the past tense.
Further: the 'seed' of the Father IS His Son.
And Lastly, Father, Son, and Spirit are Persons, indwelling One Another as Persons,
because They are current, living, Persons. As opposed to abstractions: "I was in His seed"
or "He sired me," like I might say of my human father (who has since gone to be with the Lord).
This is proven by the definite quotations of the Lord, such as:
"He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things which are pleasing to Him"
Jn 8:29. This is a definite Person with Another. With, and In (Jn 10; 14; 17). Not a figure of speech. Not a memory
or past human birth.

Eternity is timeless.
In the spirit realm, God the Father eternally begets God the Son, God the Father does not indwell God the Son,
and God the Son is eternally begotten by God the Father, God the Son does not indwell God the Father.

You have the eternally-begotten parts correct.
But you contradict Scripture by denying the plain words of God: Jn 10:38; 14:10-11, 20.
"The Father who abides in Me does His works."
That is not "the idea of the Father....the memory of the Father....my imagination of the Father..."
No. This is the Person of the Father. He Abides in His Son. And His Son abides in Him. = Indwells.
Just like I abide in the person of Christ, and Jesus Christ lives in me, a mere, simple, blood-washed, born-anew, believer into Jesus. How much more.........the Mutual Indwelling of the Father, Son, and Spirit?

Lastly, to try to comprehend your denial (or ignorance) of Scripture----Is there something about "Eternally-begotten" which You imagine Contradicts Indwelling?
If so, What?

 

[flob]

the NT presents no typology for the mingling of flour and oil.

To the contrary:
"you will conceive in your womb......The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you"
Lk 1:31, 35.
"Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life"
Jn 6:35.
"Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit...Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee...He entered on the Sabbath day into the synagogue and stood up to read...The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me..."
Lk 4:1, 14, 16, 18.

[John 1:14's] the only language regarding God becoming man in the person of Jesus of Nazareth

To the contrary:
Matthew 1:18, 20, 23; Isaiah 7:14; Luke 1:26-45; Philippians 2:5-7 also address God becoming man in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

Is an analogy a representation of the reality, or the reality itself?

A representation.

So you think he actually swallows something?

With Incorruption's or Immortality's (or Victory's) mouth?
1 Cor 15:54.
Or Life's mouth?
"that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life"
2 Cor 5:4.
Please be my guest to check Merriam-Webster (or any dictionary you want)
if you're not sure what 'swallow' can mean.

 

[senzi]

Oh. . .so it's about making sure you mention the Holy Spirit. . .not about what the Holy Spirit illumines to you.

First things first. . .

If anyone acknowledges Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God 1john 4:15

I write these things to you who believe in the name son of God so that you may know you have eternal life 1john 5:13

Do not go beyond what is written 1cor4:6

The holy spirit illumines that to me, but anyone trusting in their own intellect to learn spiritual truth cannot accept it. Incidentally, I have found those who take the mist offence at verses such ad 1cor3:18-22 are often those who do the most condemning of the innocent based on biblical requirements