Eternal Security

[atwhatcost]

Stop and listen to yourself speak for a moment. If someone did not know you were a Christian and they heard you talk like this, do you think they would get the impression that you were mocking the faith? I say this not to be cruel but in honesty with love.

A pretty amazing thing for a guy to say 12 hours before he made an "I'm ignoring you" thread.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" honesty/love things?

I was that annoying child that tended to try to keep a straight face when Mom pulled one of those, but it never lasted for more than 15 seconds, before the snort, followed by the laughing fit burst out. Sometimes it go Mom laughing too. Other times I spent the rest of the day "confined" to my room. Problem. I liked my room, so never took it as punishment, and never learned a lesson from it.

If Mom couldn't get me not to laugh when she flat out told me I couldn't do something while she did it, what are the chances you can pull it off? lol

 

[atwhatcost]

I knew this would descend into an OSAS argument, after all the writer of the article equates Eternal Security with OSAS. Why are people surprised the debate went this way?

Honest? The only thing different between this thread and all the other OSAS threads is this one was started by a OSAS believer. All the others are "eternal damnation" for all OSAS believers. That's it. No big mystery. Nothing earth shattering. Just the opposite of how it usually goes.

About the same as... did you know most people put on their right sock before putting on their left sock? This is something like someone put their left sock on first, but it's more important than socks. It's salvation through God permanently.

 

[skylove7]

Lol...I love you Lynn.
You are just honest...nothin fake about you.
I dig it sister lol

 

[Jason0047]

A pretty amazing thing for a guy to say 12 hours before he made an "I'm ignoring you" thread.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" honesty/love things?

I was that annoying child that tended to try to keep a straight face when Mom pulled one of those, but it never lasted for more than 15 seconds, before the snort, followed by the laughing fit burst out. Sometimes it go Mom laughing too. Other times I spent the rest of the day "confined" to my room. Problem. I liked my room, so never took it as punishment, and never learned a lesson from it.

If Mom couldn't get me not to laugh when she flat out told me I couldn't do something while she did it, what are the chances you can pull it off? lol

The key difference is that others insult me and they make false accusations against me; versus say, I am correcting wrong behavior that runs contrary to what the Bible teaches. For you have to understand it is not wrong to reprove or to correct others. But that is a far cry to putting down someone and making them feel like dirt (so as to make yourself feel better), though.

 

[JesusIsAll]

1 Timothy 5:8-15 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; [SUP]12[/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

What you've just said is that, if a young woman were to take a vow to exclusive Christian service, then change her mind and decided to get married, this is an unpardonable sin. These verses say no such thing. The damnation is not hell, rather condemnation, as in reproach,

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: VerseHeader"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: VerseBody"]Ver. 12 Having damnation…]
Not for their second marriage, but for their wantonness against Christ, or their sinful and luxurious way of living, contrary to the Gospel of Christ: and this is to be understood not of eternal damnation, which cannot, with propriety, be said to be had now; but either of the reproach and scandal cast upon them, and religion, for their wantonness; or the judgment and censure of the church for the same; or having sin, and the guilt of sin upon them, in which sense the word is used, (Romans 5:16) .
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+1]krivma [/SIZE]Krima (kree'-mah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2917[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. a decree, judgments
2. judgment
   1. condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
   2. in a forensic sense
      1. the sentence of a judge
      2. the punishment with which one is sentenced
      3. condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence
3. a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

There is nothing about damnation to hell in that verse, nothing. It is instruction to not have young widows supported by and dedicated to church service, for reason they are unlikely to be stable and stick to it, will bring reproach on themselves and disrupt the church. That's all, and all you've done is misinterpret scripture, in the course of which you've denied the truth in many other verses, which clearly contradict your claim that there is no eternal security. There are so many here that need to study earnestly, become educated in scripture, before making private, errant interpretations that simply demonstrate a lack of understanding.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Stephen63]

What you've just said is that, if a young woman were to take a vow to exclusive Christian service, then change her mind and decided to get married, this is an unpardonable sin. These verses say no such thing. The damnation is not hell, rather condemnation, as in reproach,

There is nothing about damnation to hell in that verse, nothing. It is instruction to not have young widows supported by and dedicated to church service, for reason they are unlikely to be stable and stick to it, will bring reproach on themselves and disrupt the church. That's all, and all you've done is misinterpret scripture, in the course of which you've denied the truth in many other verses, which clearly contradict your claim that there is no eternal security. There are so many here that need to study earnestly, become educated in scripture, before making private, errant interpretations that simply demonstrate a lack of understanding.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus speaking to His disciples:
Mark 9:43-48 (NASB) [SUP]43 [/SUP]"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [SUP]44 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]45 [/SUP]"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [SUP]46 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]47 [/SUP]"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-48 (NRSV) [SUP]43 [/SUP]If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [SUP]44 [/SUP][SUP]45 [/SUP]And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. [SUP]46 [/SUP][SUP]47 [/SUP]And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.

Jesus told His disciples it could happen to them.

BTW, didn't you notice that Paul said some of those young widows were already following after SATAN? You mean we can follow Satan & still be saved? Really?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Jesus speaking to His disciples:
Mark 9:43-48 (NASB) [SUP]43 [/SUP]"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [SUP]44 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]45 [/SUP]"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [SUP]46 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]47 [/SUP]"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-48 (NRSV) [SUP]43 [/SUP]If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [SUP]44 [/SUP][SUP]45 [/SUP]And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. [SUP]46 [/SUP][SUP]47 [/SUP]And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.

Jesus told His disciples it could happen to them.

BTW, didn't you notice that Paul said some of those young widows were already following after SATAN? You mean we can follow Satan & still be saved? Really?

All church bodies have the unsaved, the virgins without oil in their lamp. There's absolutely no statement those women are saved, or that they're not saved and chasing carnal things they shouldn't. You're arbitrarily condemning everybody to hell you know absolutely nothing about, assuming things not in the Bible. As to Christ's teaching on hell, He is teaching the faith, which the apostles will pass on, which is in the Bible to all. Except for Judas, who was the son of perdition and there for that purpose, Christ knew He would lose none of His disciples (John 17:12), wasn't threatening all the apostles with hell! How not Biblical can you get! You really need to do some sound and deep study, as you're misusing scripture. Read a gazillion commentaries from down the ages, find the consensus, which is finding sense, study context and key words. Get a grip on scripture.

 

[Budman]

The key difference is that others insult me and they make false accusations against me

But that is a far cry to putting down someone and making them feel like dirt (so as to make yourself feel better), though.

Oh good grief, man-up.

I am correcting wrong behavior that runs contrary to what the Bible teaches. For you have to understand it is not wrong to reprove or to correct others.

You are so full of pride and self importance, it's stunning.

Stop playing the martyr - you're not suffering.

 

[Stephen63]

All church bodies have the unsaved, the virgins without oil in their lamp. There's absolutely no statement those women are saved, or that they're not saved and chasing carnal things they shouldn't. You're arbitrarily condemning everybody to hell you know absolutely nothing about, assuming things not in the Bible. As to Christ's teaching on hell, He is teaching the faith, which the apostles will pass on, which is in the Bible to all. Except for Judas, who was the son of perdition and there for that purpose, Christ knew He would lose none of His disciples (John 17:12), wasn't threatening all the apostles with hell! How not Biblical can you get! You really need to do some sound and deep study, as you're misusing scripture. Read a gazillion commentaries from down the ages, find the consensus, which is finding sense, study context and key words. Get a grip on scripture.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; [SUP]12[/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For some are already turned aside after Satan.

I guess I needed to enlarge it a little more for you to read it.

1 Timothy 5:12-15 (NASB) [SUP]12 [/SUP]thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge. [SUP]13 [/SUP]At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; [SUP]15 [/SUP]for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

Any ignoramus can read that & tell plainly that in order to turn away from the faith you first have to be there..... SHEESH!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Any ignoramus can read that

I haven't disputed you can read it: it's the understanding of it you lack. No problem, have it your way, then, though I find it perhaps not the brightest bulb in the pack that, for faulty exegesis, throws out verses already provided in this thread that state, beyond any shadow of a doubt, eternal security is truth. But you are going to see what you want to see. This isn't my problem. We'll just leave it there, at least I will, having already said more than I wished to say to you. Good night.

 

[MarcR]

..........problem is, that is the "always go to for those who believe the ideology of OSAS......"yeah, they fell away, left the faith, but they weren't TRULY SAVED.......

I suppose that the profession of OSAS qualifies folks to determine the state of a persons relationship with God

Jesus was quite clear about the "falling away"

Verb phrases 53. fall away,

• to withdraw support or allegiance: The candidate's supporters fell away when he advocated racial discrimination.
• to become lean or thin; diminish; decline.
• to forsake one's faith, cause, or principles: Many fell away because they were afraid of reprisals.

54. fall back, to give way; recede; retreat: The relentless shelling forced the enemy to fall back.

Prehaps this is too simplistic, but it works for me:

Jesus said: Jn 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
KJV


From this I conclude:

1) I am secure in the hand of Jesus and the hand of the Father.

2) I am a man.

3} NO MAN, NOT EVEN ME, can pluck me from Jesus hand or the Father's hand.

_____________________________________________________________________

Lord means owner. Jesus, by his payment of my sin debt, has purchased me. I am NOT my own.

I have neither the authority nor the means to cancel Jesus' ownership. I also have no desire to cancel His ownership; but if the previous statements are true, as I believe they are, my desire should not matter.

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus speaking to His disciples:
Mark 9:43-48 (NASB) [SUP]43 [/SUP]"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [SUP]44 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]45 [/SUP]"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [SUP]46 [/SUP][where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.] [SUP]47 [/SUP]"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where THEIR WORM does not die, AND THE FIRE is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-48 (NRSV) [SUP]43 [/SUP]If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [SUP]44 [/SUP][SUP]45 [/SUP]And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. [SUP]46 [/SUP][SUP]47 [/SUP]And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, [SUP]48 [/SUP]where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.

Jesus told His disciples it could happen to them.

BTW, didn't you notice that Paul said some of those young widows were already following after SATAN? You mean we can follow Satan & still be saved? Really?

That is the problem with having a sin and still be saved type doctrine. When one sins as a way of life they are following satan and yet still saved. Yet, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, though. This is a problem with those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief.

 

[flob]

those who hold to a sin and still be saved type belief

How do you think a person can be saved without starting?

 

[vic1980]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Shalom

 

[PeterJens]

To fall in love. Now I do not know how many here have fallen in love with someone. I mean they are your life, you spend everyday with them, you accept their strange behaviour, ups and downs, you just want the best for them.

I fell in love with Jesus as well as my wife. Both experiences broke my heart, risked everything, and have found extraordinary experiences.

I was talking to an anglican vicar yesterday. I heared his testimony, and it made me wonder something.
Evangelical faith assumes here is a door, accept these few ideas and walk in, everything is done, saved etc.

But we have people who for 30 years walked in the revelation, and suddenly have a loving experience of grace, and it is all hypocracy and legalism, and those associated with it are not of the Lord. Funny how grace only applies to them and not their failure to understand where they were.

But when I look at Jesus, stunning, so stunning it is hard not to feel condemned a failure, unworthy, lost, cast adrift, confused.

Do we believe love conquers all? You are not healed, your friends family turn away from you, church seems closed, money drys up, hearts are hard, does love work? That is the question God is asking you, how deep do you believe this goes?

Are you worthy of Jesus? When he looks at you today, where are you? I am not sure how many have learnt this, and how many want their position to be right, when being in love matters more than being right.

 

[PeterJens]

A man watching. I have seen the rich with their families. They have wives and children, they share, laugh, enjoy, care, get hurt, betray, ***** etc. All that changes is the restaurants are more expensive, the hotels top of the range, the flights longer and to more strange places, but everything else is just like you and me.

They often, and I mean often, want jealousy and envy, because they obviously have it so much better.
A person is struck down by an illness. There heart is driven by life and joy, a celebration of existence. They die lifting up the gift they have, and saying thankyou.

We all die, we all have possessions, we all get ill. What defines us is how we react, what we do with these things.
Jesus came to say the kingdom works a particular way, and he wants reality from the heart, truth from your core. This is impossible without the cross, brokenness, at such a fundamental level, unless you have gone there, it is just another language.

So I wonder what you guys are arguing about. If people loose the picture, miss love and its realities, no theology will save them, they are not built right, it is not a patch up job. Is it possible for people to see Jesus in maturity? Obviously not very easily, and I have seen the best and spoken to many. That should drive us to our knees and make us wonder at how truly lost we so often are.

 

[Jason0047]

How do you think a person can be saved without starting?

You think grace covers a person's evil in the beginning of their faith? Does not God convict a person of sin so as to have them confess and forsake their sin? How can God (Who is our Father) be holy if He allowed his children to sin (with the thinking they were saved)? It doesn't make any sense. It goes against all common good and morality that we know. Do you think people should be rewarded for evil?

 

[Jason0047]

To fall in love. Now I do not know how many here have fallen in love with someone. I mean they are your life, you spend everyday with them, you accept their strange behaviour, ups and downs, you just want the best for them.

I fell in love with Jesus as well as my wife. Both experiences broke my heart, risked everything, and have found extraordinary experiences.

I was talking to an anglican vicar yesterday. I heared his testimony, and it made me wonder something.
Evangelical faith assumes here is a door, accept these few ideas and walk in, everything is done, saved etc.

But we have people who for 30 years walked in the revelation, and suddenly have a loving experience of grace, and it is all hypocracy and legalism, and those associated with it are not of the Lord. Funny how grace only applies to them and not their failure to understand where they were.

But when I look at Jesus, stunning, so stunning it is hard not to feel condemned a failure, unworthy, lost, cast adrift, confused.

Do we believe love conquers all? You are not healed, your friends family turn away from you, church seems closed, money drys up, hearts are hard, does love work? That is the question God is asking you, how deep do you believe this goes?

Are you worthy of Jesus? When he looks at you today, where are you? I am not sure how many have learnt this, and how many want their position to be right, when being in love matters more than being right.

Sin is not like a fault in a person. Sin is like a woman cheating on her husband. How long would some man be together with his wife if she kept cheating on him all the time? That is why we are to have a Godly sorrow that leads to repentance unto salvation. We are to confess and forsake sin. For sin shall not have dominion over you.

 

[PeterJens]

Sin is not like a fault in a person. Sin is like a woman cheating on her husband. How long would some man be together with his wife if she kept cheating on him all the time? That is why we are to have a Godly sorrow that leads to repentance unto salvation. We are to confess and forsake sin. For sin shall not have dominion over you.

Ok. Sin is not like a fault in a person.
Sin is an action. The point is sins happen for a reason, has foundations. It first starts from an impulse. The impulse is feed inappropriately, a vision of an action that is sin is contemplated, the opportunity appears and is taken.

Drive the impulse elsewhere, change the focus and remove the drive for sin.

Now for a person desiring a perfect walk, I am suprised you have not learnt this basic lesson in sin.
How do you stop smoking, remove the habit and craving, refocus it with different behaviour. Jesus does this through His love working through our hearts, our experience, our memories.

So love has not conquered your soul? Or have I got this wrong?

 

[Jason0047]

Ok. Sin is not like a fault in a person.
Sin is an action. The point is sins happen for a reason, has foundations. It first starts from an impulse. The impulse is feed inappropriately, a vision of an action that is sin is contemplated, the opportunity appears and is taken.

Drive the impulse elsewhere, change the focus and remove the drive for sin.

Now for a person desiring a perfect walk, I am suprised you have not learnt this basic lesson in sin.
How do you stop smoking, remove the habit and craving, refocus it with different behaviour. Jesus does this through His love working through our hearts, our experience, our memories.

So love has not conquered your soul? Or have I got this wrong?

Sin is transgression of the Law. If a person has not stopped sinning it is because they love their sin more than God. But the OSAS proponent makes an allowance for some sin to still take place in their life. Which can lead some people to think they could have a license to sin (Which is evil). Others think they can even die in one or two unrepentant sins (Such as lying, lusting after women, hating) and still be saved. For some people have committed suicide because they believed in OSAS. For they thought God was not going to punish them for their sin of self murder because they have a mere belief on Jesus. This is wrong.