Don't Mix law & Grace

[TMS]

Hey Just-me., As a born again person, there is a total difference in how we are dealt with concerning the law. We are no longer subject to it. It has no power to condemn us as believers. We do suffer the consequences of foolish choices by sinning but the consequences are not God's judgment and wrath. The judgment and wrath for the believer has already been paid for in the body of Jesus on the cross. We are now the righteousness of God IN Christ. Our position has changed from lost sinner to found saint.

Was this thread meant to be about which law.
I believe that we are 100% under grace and 100% under the law.
The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23, Sin is the transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4.
We are no longer subject to it. It has no power to condemn us as believers.
Why do we need grace? Because we are under the law.
What does grace do? Sees us as sinless when we arn't. How can God see us as sinless? His Blood Frees us from the Law.
The perfect Law reveals our sins (condemns us) and Christ pays the price to free us. So we are free from the law's condemnation and that is different to taking away the law. Because if Christ could take away the law that condemns us we wouldn't need grace. We need grace in the days before Christ and today because the same Law revealed all of mankind as a sinner.

 

[JaumeJ]

To the title of the thread only, without grace we are dead in our sin, so it seems law and grace are naturally associated.

 

[ladylynn]

Well I would agree with you when it comes to some, but I do face my own faults all the time when I backslide and commit a sin again.

I do not try and hide my faults as some do and then point out the faults of others as some do, for I have handled the plank in my own eye. And the scripture says clearly when you have handled and admitted your own sins then you can take and work on others to handle theirs.

Some do not like that rebuking and reproving that the bible clearly gives us the right to do, as Jesus and Paul both tell us how to deal with a sinning brother or sister. I do not go around condemning anybody, but I do use the scriptures in the bible to show how it says to another what they are doing is from the flesh and not the fruits of the Spirit.

Love does cover a multitude of sin and that is because for one if you are walking in love then you would have no urge to do wrong to self or others. Therefore there would be no fear of committing sin, then the other is that by love showing another how they continue to walk improperly in the faith and turn them from that way you have saved their soul from death. (James 5:19-20)

I am not being mean or sarcastic so I do not know why you even said that, because nowhere do I ever get hateful or use name calling toward others. Like I said if somebody posts a scripture that another disagrees with, that is not being mean toward that person but instead by love it is showing God's truth to them. Because when we love others we will not let them walk in a false teaching, but instead will try and help them by showing them the truth in God's word.

Why would you think it to be mean to show another love by giving God's truth in how to walk in the faith ???

KennethC, I wasn't saying "you" in particularly in that post before, but any of us can try and 'correct' someone as if we were somehow 'teaching' them and it won't go over well because pride is usually behind such corrections especially here on these posts.


You said;

And the scripture says clearly when you have handled and admitted your own sins then you can take and work on others to handle theirs

I don't see this in scripture. It's not our job to 'take and work on others to handle theirs'. No no.
That kind of assumption is why people get annoyed. The bible talks about how sin is handled in the church there is a way to handle correction among believers. This is not a church. And different interpretations of certain scriptures is always the case with so many different Christians here. Much leeway has to be given here. Walking in love also means using a measure of silence allowing a brother or sister to have their own convictions even when they differ from ours. Being different is not sin. Who can assume another brother is walking improperly in the faith? You'd have to be a close friend to even approach that.

People just don't appreciate being told by a stranger that they are walking improperly in the faith. That is a mighty big claim for anyone to make about another believer. It does sound presumptuous and annoying. Disagreeing about our interpretations is one thing, but stating our interpretation is theeee right and only interpretation is not appreciated. It dismisses the other person and says;

"we will not let them walk in false teaching, but instead will try and help them by showing them the truth in God's word"

We can give our opinion about interpretation, but "correction" in many cases is not ours to give.

 

[TMS]

If you didn't get what i was saying- We don't make void the law by grace. The law is a good thing to help us know what to act like and what not to do (in our hearts and minds) but it is also what tells me i'm a sinner. Thank Jesus for His Grace. Jesus perfectly kept the law and if He is in me, that law will be obeyed in me.

 

[ladylynn]

Was this thread meant to be about which law.
I believe that we are 100% under grace and 100% under the law.
The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23, Sin is the transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4.
We are no longer subject to it. It has no power to condemn us as believers.
Why do we need grace? Because we are under the law.
What does grace do? Sees us as sinless when we arn't. How can God see us as sinless? His Blood Frees us from the Law.
The perfect Law reveals our sins (condemns us) and Christ pays the price to free us. So we are free from the law's condemnation and that is different to taking away the law. Because if Christ could take away the law that condemns us we wouldn't need grace. We need grace in the days before Christ and today because the same Law revealed all of mankind as a sinner.

Not sure how you mean we are 100% under law? The problem is many believers put themselves under the law and it's condemnation. God is no longer angry with us because our sins and all our failings have been nailed and judged on the cross. We are not righteous because we do right, We become righteous because of what Jesus did for us at the cross. Salvation does not come on the installment plan.

I do not frustrate the grace (unmerited favor) of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21

Our sins have already been revealed and forgiven. Jesus does not have to be crucified again like the blood of bulls and goats. We are IN grace, we walk in newness of life., Born again. But many of us don't walk in grace, we keep trying to walk under the law and gain God's favor that way when it is by Christ that we have any standing. We are saved by grace through faith and that is how we have to walk as believers. I think learning this lesson is hard at first because we are so used to giving to get anything as humans.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace (unmerited favor) and truth came through Jesus Christ
John 1:17 Grace and truth are one, we can't separate truth from grace and grace from truth as they are both embodied in the person of Jesus Christ. John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, ---full of grace (unmerited favor) and truth" ----

Grace is grace and law is law. 2 different covenants. Grace came by Jesus where as law was given through Moses. Jesus didn't come to give us more laws. He came to give us His unmerited favor, which is His truth.

 

[atwhatcost]

It looked to me that you were showing the virtues of the law and those were the only verses I saw you posted. But this post shows much more. Especially Heb.8:7-10 Specifically vs 10... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God; and they shall be to me a people"

The law that is written on our hearts is the law of faith. A new covenant a new law. Under the new covenant we no longer need the 10 commandments as a schoolmaster. We now have the Holy Spirit and His Word to show us the deep things of God's grace and how to live our lives here.

Again., it must be hard for you guys to listen to a link the OP puts up for it is clear no one has YET listened and come on here to discuss the subject at hand in it's context. I look forward to 'someone' to do so!!

I was trying to be gracious on why I didn't listen to the video. I didn't lie. I really didn't listen to it because it is another unknown preacher and I'm very tired of erasing junk out of my mind -- trying to unlearn junk firmly planted in there. What I didn't say was why I trusted that's the kind of preacher it was. I trust that's the kind of preacher it was because that's the kind you tend to have full faith. You tend to follow after people without seeing where they are harmful -- like that guy who heals but preaches a foreign gospel, but you never noticed. I have already learned why not to trust one of your Live Guys. Why should I trust others?

And given this is all about preaching something you, personally, believe without any evidence but Live Guys' word for it, why trust you? (Even your scripture proofs come from Live Guys, not something you studied from the Bible itself, as evidence by how thrilled you are to keep reading a book so you "don't mix law and grace.") For some reason you thought I should part from God to get a healing. And then you paste that same video around on as many threads as you could as if you get affiliation money for doing it. That's when I lost trust in you.

Now you seem to think you're Athanasius against the world. Ever consider that's why many aren't clicking the link? (Apart from Mom who couldn't. lol)

And given, once someone did click the link, Phil 316, all you did was defend your belief, instead of talk about the Bible (post 36), it looks like it was definitely appropriate to not see the video.

 

[TMS]

Not sure how you mean we are 100% under law? The problem is many believers put themselves under the law and it's condemnation. God is no longer angry with us because our sins and all our failings have been nailed and judged on the cross. We are not righteous because we do right, We become righteous because of what Jesus did for us at the cross. Salvation does not come on the installment plan.

Does grace do away with the law? No because the unsaved will be judged by the law as sinners, and the saved (by faith) will be guiltless before the law because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. If the law remains should we obey it? The law shows me that i'm a sinner which points me all the more to my need for a saviour. 100% Under the law - I meant that it continues to reveal my sin and guilt, it still convicts me of sin and 100% grace - that i am by faith freed from all that Guilt believing that Jesus paid it all in full.

 

[atwhatcost]

Maybe you should read over your first post to me and do a re-cap?? I know it was you who posted.... unless someone has access to your name on CC???

Not a problem, since you only noticed the post script. Here it is again.

I wanted to write a novel, so I started writing one. Want to know how far I could get without understanding the rules of novel writing? Chapter 3. Twice.

The rules of writing a novel aren't a novel. They tell you what a novel looks like. The Law is not God. They tell us what he looks like. If I write a novel without the rules, I'm not writing a novel. I'm writing a long winded, fully exasperating mixed up piece of junk. If I try to follow God without understanding him, all I get is a long winded, fully exasperating mixed up piece of junk.

There is no following God without knowing what he wants and who he is. That's the law. Understanding that is grace. God's grace.

I did not watch the video simply because I'm still busy erasing man's gospel out of my mind from listening to many "preachers" who never understood enough to preach, but I was just naive enough to think they did. I don't know the preacher, so I'm not going to automatically trust him, just because there's a link.

Your point? Or is it you doing the knee-jerk thingy?

 

[atwhatcost]

Judging my motives now? Carry on.

Telepathy is required here. Keep up. lol

(Seriously, it does seem we're all supposed to have it in this thread.)

 

[atwhatcost]

I just don't understand why being rich needs to be represented. Fine be rich, help the poor and put it to good use. Why air con churches, put in comfy seats, segregate special seating areas for those that give more or are of higher status? What fruits are we counting? Number of bums in fancy church's? It's just frustrating to see for me because I don't believe it is what He intended the church to be like. I wonder even if 99% is truth but 1% is corrupt is the whole 99% null and void? A little yeast works through the whole dough.
WTH - just for me meant what the heck! I don't understand...

Lies require lots of truth and a little bit of twisting. Check out the first lie ever told in scripture --- from a serpent to the first woman. And then see where that one snowballed.

 

[atwhatcost]

Personally, I can't be thinking about what is behind someone's heart motives. I listen to the message, if it's Biblical and if the Lord uses the message spoken by that preacher or teacher to teach me something, I'm not going to judge the thoughts and intents of someone's heart. That job is the Holy Spirit's and He doesn't need me to be a mini-holy spirit to assist Him.

If there is some blatant sin exposed in someones life or some teaching turns wrong, I will not listen to them anymore. But if it's a matter of how much money they have or don't have, or if they buy something I wouldn't buy with their money, that is not for me to compare myself with them and make that the standard. Everyone's situation is not the same and what one may consider extravagant another would consider nominal. I've come to the conclusion God can bless who He wants and cause them to prosper and do well. Judging motives is not something we were made to do. We can't read minds. There are only a few facts we do see and are privy to in another persons life and the older I get the less I'm willing to condemn other people. God has shown grace and He calls us to show it as well.

I wouldn't take that 99% right and 1% wrong causing to nullify the whole person. That is simply legalism at it's finest. What would we do if God dealt with us in such a way? If that is the standard, no one would be able to stand. And that is not even applying the mistakes people make. Better to never try and judge a persons heart. ever.

Oh, come one already! How naive do you think we are? You've been thinking of nothing but motives for everyone who disagrees with you on this thread since the get-go. You even guessed at crossnote's motives already. Now suddenly, when it's YOUR Live Guy, you stop worrying about motive? That's not even a good lie. That is what this type of teaching gets you though.

 

[atwhatcost]

Hey Lynn, I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Sounds like you are offended by something about me or by something I posted?. I apologize for offending you in anyway and hope we can begin again ok? In Jesus we can put aside differences and move on.

Yup, and when you start relying on Jesus instead of false preacher's books, we can get there. All I see is someone promoting something she'd like to believe, but doesn't.

 

[Willie-T]

Yup, and when you start relying on Jesus instead of false preacher's books, we can get there. All I see is someone promoting something she'd like to believe, but doesn't.

I can believe that, because there doesn't seem to be much you see except what you choose to.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie....................................................................................................right on!

I have to say, quite candidly, that I read probably fifty or sixty posts each day that leave me wondering..."Why does he/she hate him/her so much? They went totally out of their way to make sure to be insulting or hurtful in that last post."

And this includes me. But I know why I do it.... I intend to be insulting or hurtful. I don't claim to ooze all this "love" I see others claiming to live in.

 

[KennethC]

KennethC, I wasn't saying "you" in particularly in that post before, but any of us can try and 'correct' someone as if we were somehow 'teaching' them and it won't go over well because pride is usually behind such corrections especially here on these posts.


You said;

And the scripture says clearly when you have handled and admitted your own sins then you can take and work on others to handle theirs

I don't see this in scripture. It's not our job to 'take and work on others to handle theirs'. No no.
That kind of assumption is why people get annoyed. The bible talks about how sin is handled in the church there is a way to handle correction among believers. This is not a church. And different interpretations of certain scriptures is always the case with so many different Christians here. Much leeway has to be given here. Walking in love also means using a measure of silence allowing a brother or sister to have their own convictions even when they differ from ours. Being different is not sin. Who can assume another brother is walking improperly in the faith? You'd have to be a close friend to even approach that.

People just don't appreciate being told by a stranger that they are walking improperly in the faith. That is a mighty big claim for anyone to make about another believer. It does sound presumptuous and annoying. Disagreeing about our interpretations is one thing, but stating our interpretation is theeee right and only interpretation is not appreciated. It dismisses the other person and says;

"we will not let them walk in false teaching, but instead will try and help them by showing them the truth in God's word"

We can give our opinion about interpretation, but "correction" in many cases is not ours to give.

First the bible says this about the plank in one's eye and removing it before helping others with theirs;

Matthew 7:5
"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Notice the bible only calls a person a hypocrite if they have not admitting and repented of their own sins first, but after that is done the Lord says then you can see clearly how to take the speak (sin) out of their eye. This is done by showing them the truth in God's word that says how born again believer's should act.

Second the misconception of the Church has gone way beyond its true biblical meaning, as the Church is not a building of brick and stone. It is the body of believers in Christ all around the world, and when you have 2 or more gathered in His name you have a church setting or assembly. Rather some want to see this or not we are the Church, and when we are all on here speaking on God's word this is an assembly of the Church.

Like I said before the rebuking and reproving that I have done has nothing to do with difference of opinion of the scriptures, but has to deal with one's actions in the faith on how they speak or treat others.

People can have their difference of opinion on the scriptures and I have had many loving and respectful debates with others on here when we have differed. It only comes to rebuking by me to them if they turn and start using unedifying language by demeaning and belittling of another.

Well you can continue to believe that way but the bible does give us, and I have shown you those scriptures from Jesus, Paul, James, and John that show we are called to help others walk properly in the faith. We are commissioned to bring back the lost sheep as well that has turned away from the word to go after following their lusts again.

I understand how you feel on this issue, but I will continue to stick with the bible on this issue that shows we are to help others who are in need and have fallen from the truth !!!

 

[Willie-T]

[SIZE=3 ]......We can give our opinion about interpretation, but "correction" in many cases is not ours to give.

[/SIZE]

This is so true. It is almost ALWAYS just our arrogant assumption that only OUR interpretations can possibly be correct...... and we are going to shove them down other people's throats no matter what.

(Sounds a little like The Crusades and The Inquisitions.)

 

[KennethC]

Lies require lots of truth and a little bit of twisting. Check out the first lie ever told in scripture --- from a serpent to the first woman. And then see where that one snowballed.

Sadly the first lie ever told by the serpent, "surely you will not die" is still being told in some doctrines today.
Those who are in those doctrines believe that lie hook line and sinker to, as they think they can continue to live in sin and serve the Lord both and have salvation. The bible by the words of the Lord says no, as that is the sign of a carnal minded.

Matthew 7:23 is an example of this, as this group thought they were saved for they believed Jesus as their Lord and did things in His name. Yet they also continued to give into and serve their sins as well, and Jesus said, "I never knew you who practice lawlessness."

Why would Jesus say this to them, because the bible says that our sins cause us to be enmity/separated from God.
Only by faith in Christ to repent, be baptized, and continue to walk in the faith do we receive that remission of our sins that then reconciles us to God.

 

[KennethC]

This is so true. It is almost ALWAYS just our arrogant assumption that only OUR interpretations can possibly be correct...... and we are going to shove them down other people's throats no matter what.

(Sounds a little like The Crusades and The Inquisitions.)

Read Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 5 that go together, as both passages show we do have this right to help others by God's word to show them how they are walking improperly by the faith. Then how it goes further to say if they refuse to listen what is to be done, but read it because I know you will not accept this truth from me !!!

The crusades and inquisitions forced people to be Christian or die, so do not even compare that as I am not forcing you to do nothing. Just giving God's truth to you, and then from there it falls on you to accept or not...

 

[Willie-T]

Read Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 5 that go together, as both passages show we do have this right to help others by God's word to show them how they are walking improperly by the faith. Then how it goes further to say if they refuse to listen what is to be done, but read it because I know you will not accept this truth from me !!!

The crusades and inquisitions forced people to be Christian or die, so do not even compare that as I am not forcing you to do nothing. Just giving God's truth to you, and then from there it falls on you to accept or not...

See? Though shielded with lies, you are doing it right there.

The truth is, you are pushing what YOU think truth is. That is really all any of us can possibly do, because it's doubtful ANY of us really have the truth.

 

[KennethC]

See? Though shielded with lies, you are doing it right there.

The truth is, you are pushing what YOU think truth is. That is really all any of us can possibly do, because it's doubtful ANY of us really have the truth.

No I am putting across what the bible says is truth, and then it falls on those who hear what the bible says to believe it or not.

Then you state that none of really have the truth, but once again the bible refutes that thinking as well because it says multiple times the Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth. To say none of has the truth is saying the Holy Spirit is not doing His job to keep us in the Truth of the Lord, but the bible says He will do just that; Keep us in the truth of the word, and help guide us away from iniquity so that we no longer live sinful unfruitful lives !!!