Jews

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

But in Romans 9-11 Paul refers to the promises given to Israel, and then indicates that they will fulfilled to the elect of Israel (9.6 etc), which he then indicates are the foundation of the true church which included Gentiles (Rom 11.12-24). Thus Paul see the promises as given to the church. Furthermore Hebrews 11.10-14 makes clear that the land promises will be fulfilled in the heavenly sphere, in the new heavens and the new earth. There are thus no grounds for seeing the land promises as applying to present unbelieving Israel.

Rom 11 has nothing to do with land. The olive tree represents the place of spiritual blessings.

The olive tree is God's specific name for Israel (Jer 11.16) as Paul well knew.

Why don't you answer post #11 dealing with the two groups especially the 144000 from 12 tribes of Israel? Or do you side with the JWs thinking you are one of those tribes?

I already have LOL. I side with the Holy Spirit Who made clear that the 144000 did not represent Israel. Otherwise Dan would not have been omitted. That is ok in a symbolic representation. It would not be ok if literal.,

I note you dodged Heb 11.10-14, those with your view always do

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

good we disagree, what else is new.

Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:22
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[just-me]

The olive tree is God's specific name for Israel (Jer 11.16) as Paul well knew.



I already have LOL. I side with the Holy Spirit Who made clear that the 144000 did not represent Israel. Otherwise Dan would not have been omitted. That is ok in a symbolic representation. It would not be ok if literal.,

I note you dodged Heb 11.10-14, those with your view always do

Dan was omitted before the New Covenant. They didn't posses the promised land according to their inheritance, The last mention of Dan is in Amos 8:14 "They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again."

Manasseh, the son of Joseph replaced Dan. Ephraim, the other son of Joseph who received the "birthright" is now classified as the Gentiles in the New Testament. Benjamin and Judah are both classified as Jews. In Revelation 7:4-8 neither Ephraim, or Dan are mentioned. So in respect to Dan not being mentioned, there are 12 tribes, and the "house of Ephraim" is the tribe who will be grafted back in.
Hope that makes sense.

Romans 11:22-24
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[crossnote]

The olive tree is God's specific name for Israel (Jer 11.16) as Paul well knew.



I already have LOL. I side with the Holy Spirit Who made clear that the 144000 did not represent Israel. Otherwise Dan would not have been omitted. That is ok in a symbolic representation. It would not be ok if literal.,

I note you dodged Heb 11.10-14, those with your view always do

12 tribes are distinctly named and you deny it's Israel. 12 is taken for the whole. Heb 11 has nothing to do with the distinction of the land promise to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[crossnote]

Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:22
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

all verses are written by Jews promises to Jews.

 

[moonbeam]

I thought cause Jesus was as Jew we would be too good bible scriptures...folks.

 

[Elin]

But in Romans 9-11 Paul refers to
the promises given to Israel, and then indicates that they
will fulfilled to the elect of Israel (9.6 etc), which he then indicates are the foundation of the true church which included Gentiles (Rom 11.12-24). Thus
Paul see the promises as given to the church. Furthermore
Hebrews 11.10-14 makes clear that the land promises will be fulfilled in the heavenly sphere, in the new heavens and the new earth.
There are thus no grounds for seeing the land promises as applying to present unbelieving Israel.

Firstly, Scripture records the land promise to Israel was fulfilled in the possession of it
under Joshua (Jos 21:43-45), and in the full occupation of it under Solomon (1Kgs 4:21, 24-25).

Secondly, unbelieving Israel are not the true seed of Abraham (Jn 8:44; Ro 2:28-29, 9:6-8;
Gal 4:24-26, 30-31, 6:15; Php 3:3).
Because of their unbelief and rejection of the gospel for the law (Ro 9:30-33 Gal 3:18, 22),
Paul disinherits and completely cuts off the unbelieving Jews from the promise to Abraham,
just as God disinherited (Ge 17:18-21) and completely cut off (Ge 21:10-14) Ishmael
from the promise to Abraham (Ro9:6-7; Gal 3:16, 4:25-26, 30-31),

As not all the seed of Abraham (Ishmael) inherited the promise to Abraham,
but only the seed born of the promise (Isaac--Ro 9:6-8),
so now the only seed of Abraham to inherit the promise are the seed born of The Promise, Jesus Christ
(Ge 3:15, 12:3, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4),
leaving no promise of Abraham remaining to the Jews, per se,
just as God left no promise of Abraham remaining to Ishmael (Gal 4:30).

God has shut up all promises in Jesus Christ (2Co 1:20; Gal 3:16),
just as he shut up all promises in Isaac (Ro 9:6-9).
Only the son of Sarah (the new covenant) inherits The Promise, Jesus Christ (Gal 4:30).

So Paul disinherits all those outside of Christ from the promises,
including the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:16),
(Jesus excludes the "outsiders" from the heavenly city in Rev 22:15).
Peter does the same (Ac 3:22-23).
They do so because Christ did so (Mt 21:43, 23:38, 8:12; Lk 13:28),
because God's whole plan from the beginning is to shut up all promises in Christ (2Co 1:20;
Ro 15:8; Col 1:19, 2:9-10, 17; Eph 1:9-10, 22-23, 2:12-22, 3:6, 10-11; Heb 11:40 Jn 1:16),
just as he has shut up all men in sin (Gal 3:22; Ro 3:9-19, 11:32).
God has no other inheritance, blessing or plan outside Christ (Gal 3:16).

 

[resurrection33]

since Jesus was a Jew ( king of the Jews) are we Jews?

I suppose we are what we choose to be.

 

[Elin]

I suppose we are what we choose to be.

. . .or what God makes us to be.

 

[Is]

IMO yes!

Ro 8:15, Ro 8:23, Ro 9:4, Gal 1:4, and Eph 1:5 all speak of believers as adopted into the family of God.

Jesus, a member of the Godhead, had no parental lineage beyond the Father; but on His mother's side his lineage is the tribe of Judah. When a child is adopted, he/she is adopted into both sides of the adopting family.

In a sense, I believe that all believers are Jews by birth and/ or by adoption.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is clearly made with Israel and Judah.

Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 12 clearly indicate that the New Covenant applies to the church.

While this is surely true; it can only be true if the Church has been included in Israel or Judah.

The only basis for such inclusion is the adoption spoken of above.

All Ro.8:15 is not about becoming anything other than Children of God......16. The Spirit itself bearth withness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. 17. We are now joint heirs with Christ.

Ro.9:4 is about the Jew and the Gospel and Paul calls them v3 his kinsmen according to the flesh.

Again all Galations 1:4 is saying is that Jesus gave himself for our sins. Ephesians 1:5 gain addresses the fact that we are now children of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are no nationalities in the Church, Christ is all that matters, Colossians 3:11.
There is no difference between anyone in the Church, Ro.10:12 Gal.3:28 we are all one in Christ.

 

[LT]

So the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 7:1-8 from the 12 tribes of Israel will be believing Gentiles as well? Me no think so.

Revelation 7:4-8 (NET)
4 Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:
5 From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

That was the believing Jews on earth...


Here is the raptured Church (comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles) in heaven...

Revelation 7:9 (NET) After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.

Not sure if you've done a study about OT citizenship, but it makes it clear that the lineage is broken upon unbelief/unfaithfulness. If the parents were cast out of Israel due to unbelief, the children are actually born as Gentiles...

Here is my speculation, based upon my understanding of OT citizenship, NT citizenship, and Biblical prophecy:
The 144k will be pure descendants. Their ancestors will be Believers from the time of Christ (likely the 12 Apostles) and their parents and entire birthline will be Believers. That is the only way for the Remnant to be pure. They are not merely converted Jews, but descendents of a Believing line of Israelites.

There is no separate People of God that remain unsaved, until the End,
but there is a special group that has been kept with a pure lineage of Faith.

 

[Dude653]

Christianity was founded in Judaism. It was a Roman Catholic Church that perverted it

 

[LT]

Also, if we are the Bride of Christ, and He is a Jew, and we convert to His Ways,
we are now Jews, according to OT citizenship.

 

[LT]

The 144k are not referred to as "Jews" in Scripture. Making that assumption is based on many other assumptions.

 

[crossnote]

The 144k are not referred to as "Jews" in Scripture. Making that assumption is based on many other assumptions.

Well the 12 tribes of Israel, get technical if you want...just don't call them Eskimos.

 

[Is]

since Jesus was a Jew ( king of the Jews) are we Jews?

No. Race is not an issue in the body of Christ. The Church is spiritual. When Jew and Gentile accept Jesus Christ as their saviour they both enter into union with Christ and are members of the Royal family of God Gal.3:28, Col.3:11, 1Peter 2:9.

 

[Is]

The 144k are not referred to as "Jews" in Scripture. Making that assumption is based on many other assumptions.

They are indentified by their afiliation to the tribes, making them Jews.

 

[Bowman]

since Jesus was a Jew ( king of the Jews) are we Jews?

Jews, by definition, deny Jesus' deity.

So....no, we are NOT Jews...

 

[flob]

Hebrews are river-crossers, We who believe have a Jew living inside of us, there is no more Jew nor Greek in the church,
God will save all Israel (that survive at the end), Israel is the prince of God, Paul said we the church are the Israel of God

 

[Atwood]

Jews, by definition, deny Jesus' deity.

So....no, we are NOT Jews...

Not by any definition, not by the Bible definition. Here we have a problem of definition. Jews, as a modern term, generally refers to the descendants of Jacob who follow the Talmud (not the OT) and deny the Lord Jesus. I should qualify that by saying that they more or less follow the Talmud on a spectrum ranging to being quite secular. However, as Romans 9 indicates, these are not actually Jews Biblically. To be a Jew Biblically requires that 1) you be a descendant of Jacob, and 2) trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. So there are some real Jews around, like Paul was.

rom 2 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I think that the most exhaustive treatment of this subject is found in Romans 9-11; here are some verses:

rom 9:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren’s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

This passage does not expand the concept of Jew to include Gentiles or Church members. It restricts the concept of Jew to a smaller elect part of Israel. And these can be Christians in the Church.