Jews

robinriley · Jul 12, 2015

(Robin)
Interesting verses there, Prove-all ... I've been playing with them for some years now, and think I have an idea about them,
that I've seen no one else take to ... that is, I'm not compleatly sure, but allow me to try and explain my idea ....

a) in verse 5:29, after talking about a man and wife, Paul then goes on to a related, but different teaching ...

"...according-as also, the Lord to the ecclesia" ... that is, the subject is now about the ecclesia,or body of believers, also called by Paul, the Body of Christ

b) in verse 30 Paul says that this ecclesia or Body of Christ is actually out of the flesh of Christ and the bones of Christ...

"that members we be of the body of Same (out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same)"

Need to clarify something here, this particular verse is one of those that has a major variation between Alexandrian and Byzantine sourde texts ... that is, the Alexandrian Greek sources left off a total of nine words, very revealing words, important words.I'll give you the details on that (see below), but it's just that, a lot of detail ... check it out, if you want, or skip it it you want,just be aware that not all NT versions are the same when it comes to this verse ... a good many of them leave off the words

(out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same)

c) In verse 31 Paul then goes on to quote from the OT

instead of this [thing]: A HUMAN TO THE FATHER AND THE MOTHER OF SAME HE WILL DOWN-LEAVE, AND TOWARDS THE WIFE OF SAME HE WILL BE TOWARDS-CLEAVED, AND INTO THE ONE FLESH THE TWO [ONES] THEY WILL BE.

But here's where I think Paul is telling us something new, not old ... that is, notice that this verse starts out with..."instead of this thing:" ...That is, it appears that Paul is saying, "instead of this married arrangement, as defined in the OT, we the ecclesia have something else, we have another relationship with Christ; That is instead of just cleaving together in one flesh ... our relationship with Christ is that we are even closer yet ... we are out of his flesh and bones, not just two merged together, but one of the very Same.

d) And then, in verse 32 Paul says (as you Prove -all, have already quoted ...This [matter], the great secret it be, yet I for’ [the] Anointed and for’ the ecclesia I say

Think about it, there's no great secret or mystery concerning the marriage arrangement quoted from the OT,no new insight provided there, but if we were to understand that Paul is comparing this OT arrangement,with a new closer yet arrangement with Christ; that is, not just two cleaving together, but we, the ecclesia,the Body of Christ being so close that we are actually part of Hid flesh and bones ...Then that, indeed, would be a great new secret Paul is letting us in on!

***
5:30* Deletions (9)

αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐκ τῶν ὀστέων αὐτοῦ
א[SUP]2[/SUP] D F G (K τοῦ σώματος for τῶν ὀστέων) L P Ψ 075 0278 0285[SUP]vid[/SUP] 88 104 181 256 263 326 330 365 424* 436 451 459 614 (629[SUP]vid[/SUP] omit τῶν) 630 1175 1241 1319 1573 1739[SUP]c[/SUP] 1852 1877 (1912 omit first αὐτοῦ) 1962 1984 2127 2200 2492 2495 Byz Lect (l[SUP]147[/SUP] καὶ ἐκ τῆς) (l[SUP]1154[/SUP] omit καὶ) it[SUP]ar[/SUP] it[SUP]b[/SUP] it[SUP]c[/SUP] it[SUP]d[/SUP] it[SUP]dem[/SUP] it[SUP]e[/SUP] it[SUP]f[/SUP] it[SUP]g[/SUP] it[SUP]mon[/SUP] it[SUP]o[/SUP] it[SUP]x[/SUP] it[SUP]z[/SUP] vg (syr[SUP]p[/SUP]) syr[SUP]h[/SUP] arm geo slav Irenaeus[SUP]gr[/SUP] Irenaeus[SUP]lat[/SUP] Ambrosiaster Victorinus-Rome Ambrose Chrysostom Pelagius Theodore[SUP]lat[/SUP] Theodoret John-Damascus ς ND Dio

autou ek tEs sarkos autou kai ek tOn osteOn autou

of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}
out {1537 PREP} of the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of a flesh {4561 N-GSF} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} out {1537 PREP} of the [things] {3588 T-GPN} of bones {3747 N-GPN} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}

*autou

of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}

αὐτοῦ
p[SUP]46[/SUP] א* A B 048 6 33 81 424[SUP]c[/SUP] 1739* 1881 2464 l[SUP]422[/SUP] it[SUP]s[/SUP] vg[SUP]ms[/SUP] cop[SUP]sa[/SUP] cop[SUP]bo[/SUP] eth Methodius Origen[SUP]lat[/SUP] Jerome Augustine[SUP]vid[/SUP] Ps-Jerome Euthalius WH NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM

blondieindahouse · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

To that I ask: Where do you see the word trinity? But yet it is inferred right?

2 Corinthians 11:2-3 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since nI betrothed you to one husband, oto present you pas a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that qas the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts rwill be led astray from a ssincere and tpure devotion to Christ.

Eph 5 25-2725 gHusbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and hgave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by ithe washing of water jwith the word, 27 so kthat he might present the church to himself in splendor, lwithout spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.1

Rev 21:9
9 Then came xone of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of ythe seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you zthe Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

robinriley · Jul 12, 2015

GodIsSalvation said:

(Robin)
Believe you are talking about where it says "Bride of the Lambkin" ...
Revelations uses may figures of speech, and special words ..."Lambkin" ...being one

Again, this is God speaking, through His word ... would not God choose His words carefully?
You phish-tuttle my questioning the non-existent phrase ... it's not exact, but surely close enough ...
So then, are you suggesting that God isn't careful with His selection of words ... that He rambles?

But you are correct, there is a bride, the Bride of the Lambkin ... but we are clearly called the
Body of Christ, so might God be talking about two different things, here?

robinriley · Jul 12, 2015

(Blondieindahouse)
To that I ask: Where do you see the word trinity? But yet it is inferred right?

(Robin)
I try my hardest to never "infer" anything about God's word ...so no, I cant find the word "trinity" in scriptrue,
so I really dont know what that means ... God didn't tell me ... any number of men have tried to define this
for me, but I've found that there's as many subjective definitions as there are men trying to explain this ...

On the nature of God ... I'm not sure, nor can I exaclty determine it from what I find in the scriptures,
so I'll just have to chalk that one up (my spiritual ignorance) as yet another failure (sin) that went to the
cross with Christ ... Thank you Father.

blondieindahouse · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

Well , we know that Christ is the I AM and I AM is the Father . Thats two in one. Then we have the Holy Spirit in which Christ said he would send in Acts. It is Gods spirit which is Christs spirit so they are one in the same. that one makes 3 which is God . The trinity simply means three. from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold") defines God as three consubstantial persons, expressions. Does that make sense?

robinriley · Jul 12, 2015

(Robin)
...nope! ...

Sorry, I dont get it, never will get it ... and frankly, it doesn't really bother me ...
So please dont feel that you have to "save" me by getting me to understand it;
Chrst has already taken care of that ... you're off the hook. Thank you, though ...

blondieindahouse · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

I wasnt implying that I needed to save you. I was simply being me trying to help. Your welcome

God bless you

GodIsSalvation · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

Aye indeed the Bride of the Lamb be the reference in Revelation 21. Since Jesus be the Lamb, and Jesus be the Christ therefore then that be the closest to a direct reference, but for sooth as you have said the direct phrase "Bride of Christ" is not used.

Also aye, God does choose his words carefully I believe. Nay I suggest not that he rambles.

Body of Christ and the Bride may be two different things, and I have not said that they were not, but I have said the Bride is referred to throughout scripture, particularly in regards to the end of days. It is just a supposition, but my personal ponderance is that the Bride is Creation, particularly the new creation, which is called New Jerusalem. Perhaps this make for an interesting topic of further study indeed.

Also as an aside, lol, I have not heard the term "phish-tuttle" before, but it did amuse me indeed. Though I want to add I merely wanted to answer your question, for it is an interesting ponderance. I like you, you are well reasoned, I shall add you as a friend.

prove-all · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

yes it makes a very big diferrance I believe.

like that verse- the body [is] of Christ, is so twisted out of place.

the [is] was added in about the 4th century, and not in the original.

to me this verse should read

do not let anyone tell you about Gods holydays, but the body of Christ [the rock foundation]

prove-all · Jul 12, 2015

GodIsSalvation said:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

-I believe this is when the actual wedding takes place, implys Jerusalem as bride.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
-mansion in mill. before new jer.?

-I do not think it is creation though

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to
be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly,
but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage
of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

prove-all · Jul 12, 2015

1Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord:
shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her:
rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory
of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides,
and be dandled upon her knees.

13As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you;
and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me,
saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

LT said:

But not according to the word of God in Gal 3:28-29.

ember · Jul 12, 2015

skylove7 said:

I almost fell off my chair laughing

I saw 'Jaws' too at first...must be cause it was shark week and I have a thing for sharks LOL!

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

GodIsSalvation said:

We have been grafted into the one olive tree on which Israel are branches (Ro 11:17, 19, 21, 24)
just as the NT believers are.
Israel is not the tree, the tree is (the body of) Christ, into which all the branches are grafted and abide
(Jn 15:4), and whose roots are the holy patriarchs (Ro 11:16).

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

prove-all said:

Which promise was fulfilled in their possession of it under Joshua (Jos 21:43-45), and
in their full occupation of it under Solomon (1Kgs 4:21, 24-25).

They had the same inheritance, and is what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who never possessed a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5), understood the promise of an everlasting inheritance to be (Heb 11:13-16).

We are given the new covenant laws of Christ (Mt 22:37-39), written on our heart, the obedience of which fulfills God's laws (Ro 13:8-10; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8).

Utah · Jul 12, 2015

moonbeam said:

Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. Rejoice for everyone who believes.

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

prove-all said:

-current lost tribes of Israel, that was deforced by God.

Isaiah 8:17: “And I will wait upon the Lord,
that hideth his face from the house of Jacob

-remember there is 2 promises given.

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah …” (Genesis 49:10).
But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).

the promises and the covenants of God, the sonship and the glory,
belong to Israel (Romans 9:4).

Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will
make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy
seed after thee for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 48:2-4).

“And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were
born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into
Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine”

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the
midst of the earth” (verses 14-16).

“Joseph is a fruitful bough,even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches [margin,
daughters] run over the wall” (verse 22).

“[T]he Almighty … shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep
that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: The blessings of thy father have
prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills:
they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren”.

In Genesis 48 Jacob first passed the birthright on to the two sons of Joseph jointly, speaking of them
both together. Then he spoke of them separately—Manasseh was to become the single great nation;
Ephraim, the company of nations.

The promise of a future great nation and a company of
nations, together great for multitude, rich in national material
prosperity,fruits of the ground, possessing the “gates” of the Earth’s other nations,
spreading north s. e. w. applies to these lads and the two tribes which sprang from them.

-nothing about septer promise of one seed or grace in these promises.
only physical nations and multitudes in the midst of earth

Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning
my sons and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
“Behold, the days come, saith the [Eternal],
that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto.....

But the "ten lost tribes" are found in the Bible after the exile, in

1) prophecies relating to the return from exile
---Jer 3:18, 31:27, 31 (where "Israel" is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
---Eze 37:15-22 (where "Ephraim" is the northern kingdom of ten tribes--see Is 7:17 for use of "Ephraim")

2) return from exile - Ezra 6:17

3) NT - Ac 26:7, Jas 1:1

How could they be lost?

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

Are you sure about who has been fed the "doctrinal myth?"

The Church is the wife (Eph 5:31-32) and bride (Rev 21:9) of the Lamb, Jesus Christ (Jn 1:19).

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

Where do you find the phrase "sovereignty of God," yet Scripture teaches it everywhere.

Scripture is quite clear on the sovereignty of God just as it is on the church being the bride of Christ.

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

robinriley said:

(Robin)
The question was, where do you find the phrase "Bride of Christ?"

The phrase "Body of Christ" is in scriptures, but not "Bride of Christ" ...
Again, scripture is God-breathed ... God's words ... so I'm only suggesting, again,
that we be careful with it ... dont assume that certain words (e.g., "heretick") are present,
or certain phrases are present, unless you can specifically find the verse that says such things ...
And even then, you need to be careful about the translation you consult, because many are more
interested in "coloring" the words in such a manner that appears to support some doctrinal bent ...
such as in Colossians where some translations substitute "reality" or "substance" for the actual word "body" ...

Does any of this make a real difference? You tell me?
I think God is very careful about the words He uses to talk with us ... so I start with that idea, always, when reading a verse.

Is there a difference between bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9), Jesus Christ (Jn 1:19, and bride of Christ?

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