Creation, The Flood, And Millions Of Years

[purgedconscience]

the creature became subject to the bondage of corruption when it was created.

What?

So, you're saying that the bondage of corruption was part of the original creation? In other words, that God Himself was the Author of said corruption? You cannot possibly believe that, can you?

Adam would escape that bondage by eating of the tree of life (otherwise why the need for the tree of life?)

So, according to your beliefs, Adam was subject to the bondage of corruption too from the moment that he was created and prior to his sin? How then did death enter into the world as the result of Adam's sin? You're making it sound as if Adam would have died if he had never sinned simply by ceasing to eat from the tree of life. In other words, you're making it sound as if death wasn't actually brought into this world by sin, but that it already existed prior to sin. Am I reading you right? I hope not.

what you overlook is that the Fall was not unanticipated.

I'm not overlooking that at all. Why would you say that?

It was all part of God's plan.

God had foreknowledge of it, sure, but I don't know that I'd say that He planned it. Jesus was most certainly foreordained as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, so God definitely wasn't surprised by the fall of man.

Through the Fall man also became subject to corruption.

?

Now I'm confused.

Didn't you previously imply that Adam could have died prior to the Fall?

Again, what was the cause of the original corruption?

The emphasis in Romans 8 is that all corruption will cease.

That's part of the emphasis, but, again, what is the cause of the corruption to begin with?

Do you believe that God Authored the corruption Himself and somehow set it in motion prior to sin entering the world?

Apparently, you do, but I don't see that anywhere in scripture.

Do you really believe that all living creatures will be resurrected?

When did I say that?

I believe that all human beings will face one of two resurrections, either the resurrection unto life or the resurrection unto condemnation even as Jesus taught.

 

[valiant]

What?
So, you're saying that the bondage of corruption was part of the original creation? In other words, that God Himself was the Author of said corruption? You cannot possibly believe that, can you?

Of course I can. It was only man who was made free from the bondage of corruption because he had the tree of life. What would have happened if he had not partaken of the tree of life? He would have 'corrupted'. Life, death, corruption, are all part of the cycle of nature. It is all good (otherwise the world would soon have overflowed with flies LOL). . It was only man who was lifted above it by God providing the tree of life. How did God bring about Adam's death? By removing him from the tree of life.

So, according to your beliefs, Adam was subject to the bondage of corruption too from the moment that he was created and prior to his sin?

Yes, unless he partook of the tree of life constantly.

How then did death enter into the world as the result of Adam's sin?

God actually tells us. by preventing access to the tree of life. read the account for yourself.

You're making it sound as if Adam would have died if he had never sinned simply by ceasing to eat from the tree of life.

well that's what it implies. what else can what God says about the tree of life mean?

In other words, you're making it sound as if death wasn't actually brought into this world by sin, but that it already existed prior to sin. Am I reading you right? I hope not.

Alas your hopes are dashed. For living creatures death was in the world. For man death was brought into the world by sin because had he not sinned he would have partaken regularly of the tree of life and lived for ever. THATS WHAT GOD SAYS.

I'm not overlooking that at all (that the Fall was anticipated}. Why would you say that?

Because you seem to think that God first created the world wholly 'perfect' without the Fall in mind. In fact God saw it was 'very good'. Just the kind of world He had intended for man.

God had foreknowledge of it, sure, but I don't know that I'd say that He planned it. Jesus was most certainly foreordained as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, so God definitely wasn't surprised by the fall of man.

Precisely. So He would have created the world in the light of the fact. I fail to see how you can create something which will cause something to happen, and say you did not plan what happened. Known consequences are always planned.
?

Now I'm confused. Didn't you previously imply that Adam could have died prior to the Fall?

Yes he could have chosen to die by not partaking of the tree of life. God makes clear that that was crucial to his living for ever.

Again, what was the cause of the original corruption?

the cycle of nature as God planned it.

That's part of the emphasis, but, again, what is the cause of the corruption to begin with?

It was a necessary part of the creation that He planned, knowing what was going to happen.

Do you believe that God Authored the corruption Himself and somehow set it in motion prior to sin entering the world? Apparently, you do, but I don't see that anywhere in scripture.

the world would not function properly without elements of corruption. so yes it was a necessary part of the world He created. What we call corruption keeps nature stable. An it would be a warning to Adam not to sin.

When did I say that?

It is the implication of your reference to Rom 8.

I believe that all human beings will face one of two resurrections, either the resurrection unto life or the resurrection unto condemnation even as Jesus taught.

Jesus clearly says that they will all face one resurrection, for some to life, for others to judgment, both occurring at the same hour.

 

[valiant]

What would an independent peruser make of Genesis 1?


The first thing that would strike him is that on creating the heavens and the earth, the earth was waste and empty. Nothing had been formed or fashioned. There was no form of light. All was covered with water. Thus when God begins to fashion His creation He only has submerged formless matter to work on. There was no sun nor moon. There was nothing.


The aim of this would appear to be in order to bring out that all that is positive within creation was as a consequence of God's positive action. Without God upholding it, it would return to being waste and empty. Meanwhile the Spirit of God is hovering over its emptiness like a brooding bird, waiting to act. And we are not told how long this went on for.


Then God acts. He says 'let there be light.' What has been negative darkness is flooded with positive light. No indication is given of the source of light apart from the word of God. Then He divides the light from the darkness. Light and darkness are separated. Light, and periods of light, sustained by God, are called YOM. Darkness, and periods of darkness are called CHOSHEK. Presumably from now on periods of God-provided light are seen as separate from periods of darkness. Thus 'evening' comes, and following it the night. Which will be followed by another yom. It should be noted that there was no previous evening. Before the light came all had been blackness, negative darkness. Thus when the reader reads, 'and there was evening and there was morning one yom' he naturally thinks of the evening that follows the period of light. The 'morning' would have preceded it. The reason evening is mentioned first is in order to demonstrate the separation of light from darkness which will result in a second yom. The morning stresses that it had a beginning. The reader notes that it is God-provided light not limited by physical factors. From now on all activity will be to do with earth and as seen on earth.


To a people who saw time as fluid, with neither 'year' nor 'moon period' being a fixed length of time, there would be no indication how long the period of light (yom) was. It would depend on God's will. And being God insprted light there was no limit to it.


Unlike us with our time measuring equipment even the ordinary 'days' of those times would not all have been seen as the same length (even approximately). How often we say 'the day flashed by' or 'its been a long day' and it seems like it even though we KNOW it is of the same length. They did not have measurers of time. To them 'days' would have been seen as long or short without any fixity as to time. They had nothing to tell them otherwise.

They would thus simply have seen this first yom (period of light) as any length of time God pleased, as a period of time whether long or short. They would have no fixations like us. They probably would not even have speculated on it.

 

[valiant]

They would thus simply have seen this first yom (period of light) as any length of time God pleased, as a period of time whether long or short. They would have no fixations like us. They probably would not even have speculated on it.


Evening would result in night, and then would commence the second yom (period of light) during which God could work. And this would go on until the evening. During this period God made the atmosphere, forming clouds above, and waters below. 'And the evening (ending) and the morning (beginning) was of the second period of light (yom).' Again they would see God taking as long as He wanted to. The light was God-provided and would last as long as He wanted.


Again evening would introduce night and that would be followed by 'morning' which would introduce another period of light during which God could work. Thus would begin yom 3. This was a very busy period. During it the land appeared out of the water. And then God made and caused to grow all manner of vegetation and plants up to the point where they produced seeds. The ancients would know all about growing vegetation and plants. They would know how long it took, in some cases more than in others. And they would therefore know that this yom took up a considerable period of time. This would cause them no problem. It was God's working day and the One Who provided the light could make it last as long as He wanted. There is no hint that the growth process was miraculously increased.

 

[purgedconscience]

Alas your hopes are dashed. For living creatures death was in the world. For man death was brought into the world by sin because had he not sinned he would have partaken regularly of the tree of life and lived for ever. THATS WHAT GOD SAYS.

Actually, that's not what God says at all.

In fact, this is what God says:

Genesis chapter 3 verse 14

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

After Adam sinned and not before, the LORD God pronounced a curse not only upon the serpent, but also upon all cattle and every beast of the field. Yes, the serpent was cursed above them all, but the implication is that all were cursed after Adam sinned and not before. Furthermore, I believe that it is significant that after Adam sinned and not before, the serpent was told of his mortality in that he was informed that he should eat dust all the days of his life. In other words, the serpent was informed that his life would cease at some point in time in the future.

Genesis chapter 3 verse 16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again, after Adam sinned and not before, Eve was informed that she would bring forth children in sorrow and of her labor pains which would precede such births. Is it any wonder that Paul, in the portion of scripture which I've already covered from the 8th chapter of Romans, likened all of creation to a woman in such a condition...a condition which was introduced into the world after Adam sinned and not before?

Genesis chapter 3 verses 17 thru 19

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Yet again, after Adam sinned and not before, he was not only informed of his own mortality, but also informed that the ground had become cursed for his sake. Yes, as a direct result of Adam's sin and not because of any corruption which you allege was a part of God's original design, the ground would bring forth thorns and thistles.

Yours is a strange doctrine, sir, and hardly what God has actually said.

 

[valiant]

Actually, that's not what God says at all.

well I think it is LOL Indeed I'm sure of it.

In fact, this is what God says: Genesis chapter 3 verse 14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

After Adam sinned and not before, the LORD God pronounced a curse not only upon the serpent, but also upon all cattle and every beast of the field. Yes, the serpent was cursed above them all, but the implication is that all were cursed after Adam sinned and not before

No, no. The curses are specific, on the snake, on Eve and on Adam. The emphasis is on the extremeness of his curse. The remaining living creatures were not affected, and there is no reason why they should have been. Indeed it would have been unrighteous of God. Why should they be cursed when they had done nothing wrong? Had they been included God would have called them in to sentence them.

The point was that the snake would be humiliated, and have to crawl in the dust and have to be constantly defeated, in contrast with other living creatures. .


.

Furthermore, I believe that it is significant that after Adam sinned and not before, the serpent was told of his mortality in that he was informed that he should eat dust all the days of his life. In other words, the serpent was informed that his life would cease at some point in time in the future.

But eating dust is a symbol of defeat, not of death. Indeed it was to go on continually. 'All the days of his life' is a clear indication that in the end he expected to die.

G

enesis chapter 3 verse 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again, after Adam sinned and not before, Eve was informed that she would bring forth children in sorrow and of her labor pains which would precede such births.

No one denies that the woman and the man had a heavy price to pay. Indeed to some extent the heaviest of all. For they were kept from the tree of life, their hope of continual life.

Is it any wonder that Paul, in the portion of scripture which I've already covered from the 8th chapter of Romans, likened all of creation to a woman in such a condition...a condition which was introduced into the world after Adam sinned and not before?

you are changing the subject. we are not talking about whether God punished the man and the woman. we are both agreed on that. But there is no suggestion that the situation of other living creatures apart from the snake, changed.

Genesis chapter 3 verses 17 thru 19
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Yet again, after Adam sinned and not before, he was not only informed of his own mortality, but also informed that the ground had become cursed for his sake. Yes, as a direct result of Adam's sin and not because of any corruption which you allege was a part of God's original design, the ground would bring forth thorns and thistles.

It says nothing there about Adam dying. You are reading that in. What was cursed was the dust from which he came. The point was that being cast out of the Garden he would find himself on land where thorns and thistles abounded. Instead of the easy life in the Garden he would struggle for food. How far thorns and thistles were actually new is an open question. My view is that they were already there just waiting for this to happen. But it says nothing about whether there was 'corruption' in nature which is a necessary part of the cycle of life. You read in more than it says.

Yours is a strange doctrine, sir, and hardly what God has actually said.

Not strange at all. And it fits in adequately to what God said. God said nothing about 'corruption in nature' because it was a normal part of the cycle of life as He created it (the word corruption is a little misleading). what He cursed and deeply affected was the snake's position in respect to living creatures. the woman's childbearing, and the man's struggle to survive by hard toil. But death is not mentioned. THAT God dealt with by removing the tree of life and thus allowing nature to take its course..

 

[pwrnJC]

Keep in mind that when GOD said "Let there be LIGHT" that it was not the sun, moon, or stars. There was NO rotation of them for they had NOT been created just yet. There were NO rolexes or Buluva watches then, for man had not been created just yet. A lot of things happened between the 1st and the 2nd verses of Genesis that most do NOT think of. For instance, the casting out of lucifer and 1/3 of the angels in heaven and their fall to earth. etc. Believe me...where those fallen angels are, there is always confusion! Mankind has only one mental 'take" on what a 'day' is. GOD doesn't. One day with HIM is as a 1,000 years. Time is so transcendent in GOD's eyes. We will not understand until we spend eternity with HIM. Then we can look back and think' WOW..was I really hung up about this 24 hour stuff?" It surely isn't that GOD could not do it..but I see it as GOD getting everything just perfect before HE created HIs most awesome creation up to date: MAN!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[purgedconscience]

No, no. The curses are specific, on the snake, on Eve and on Adam. The emphasis is on the extremeness of his curse. The remaining living creatures were not affected, and there is no reason why they should have been. Indeed it would have been unrighteous of God. Why should they be cursed when they had done nothing wrong? Had they been included God would have called them in to sentence them.

The point was that the snake would be humiliated, and have to crawl in the dust and have to be constantly defeated, in contrast with other living creatures. .

But there is no suggestion that the situation of other living creatures apart from the snake, changed.

There is more than just a suggestion that the other living creatures were affected:

Genesis chapter 3 verse 14

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Why did the LORD God tell the serpent that he was cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field if all cattle and all beasts weren't cursed themselves? God called them all into sentence then. Why? Because He was unrighteous as you ask? No, but simply because everything that had been placed under Adam's authority fell with him when he fell.

 

[purgedconscience]

It says nothing there about Adam dying. You are reading that in. What was cursed was the dust from which he came. The point was that being cast out of the Garden he would find himself on land where thorns and thistles abounded. Instead of the easy life in the Garden he would struggle for food. How far thorns and thistles were actually new is an open question. My view is that they were already there just waiting for this to happen. But it says nothing about whether there was 'corruption' in nature which is a necessary part of the cycle of life. You read in more than it says.

I believe that there is great significance in the fact that Christ bore a crown of thorns upon His head. In other words, seeing how the thorns were a direct result of the curse which came after Adam's sin and not before, Christ Who became a curse for us bore the same upon His head.

 

[tanach]

Old Earth creationists are attempting to answer something. They are trying to solve why there are thousands of fossils
scattered around the world of creatures that no longer exist. The only pluaible explanation I can think of is that the creation
mentioned in Genesis was not the first The flood doesnt really cover it there are far too many of these beasts to fit into an Ark and even if they did, it doesnt explain why they are not still here today.

 

[Tintin]

This article sums it up nicely:

Young Earth Creationism is a cult full of fools and liars

Bugger off, JackH.

 

[Tintin]

Keep in mind that when GOD said "Let there be LIGHT" that it was not the sun, moon, or stars. There was NO rotation of them for they had NOT been created just yet. There were NO rolexes or Buluva watches then, for man had not been created just yet. A lot of things happened between the 1st and the 2nd verses of Genesis that most do NOT think of. For instance, the casting out of lucifer and 1/3 of the angels in heaven and their fall to earth. etc. Believe me...where those fallen angels are, there is always confusion! Mankind has only one mental 'take" on what a 'day' is. GOD doesn't. One day with HIM is as a 1,000 years. Time is so transcendent in GOD's eyes. We will not understand until we spend eternity with HIM. Then we can look back and think' WOW..was I really hung up about this 24 hour stuff?" It surely isn't that GOD could not do it..but I see it as GOD getting everything just perfect before HE created HIs most awesome creation up to date: MAN!!!!!!!!!!!

Good gravy. You didn't bother to read any of the thread did you? The Gap theory is bogus and Satan and his kind fell between the end of Creation Week (it was 'very good') and the Fall of Man. The earth did rotate from day one, it's just that the light was from God until He created the great lights in the sky to take over that job. And stop bringing up that verse concerning God's patience and our hope in Jesus return as relating to the Creation of all things, it doesn't apply at all. Context, context, context.

 

[dcontroversal]

I was reading though this thread and wondered an even bigger question.....Why 6 days? and a day of rest? I have heard that it represents 6000 years of history and the mil. reign....but God is God..he could have done it in a millisecond if he wanted and did he NEED to rest? Now ponder that!

 

[purgedconscience]

I was reading though this thread and wondered an even bigger question.....Why 6 days? and a day of rest? I have heard that it represents 6000 years of history and the mil. reign....but God is God..he could have done it in a millisecond if he wanted and did he NEED to rest? Now ponder that!

I have pondered that and I expressed my beliefs concerning the same in post #66:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ation-flood-millions-years-4.html#post2174029

What I stated there wasn't exhaustive, but it lays a pretty good foundation for what I believe this whole one day is with the Lord as a thousand years thing is all about.

 

[valiant]

There is more than just a suggestion that the other living creatures were affected:

Genesis chapter 3 verse 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Why did the LORD God tell the serpent that he was cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field if all cattle and all beasts weren't cursed themselves? God called them all into sentence then. Why? Because He was unrighteous as you ask? No, but simply because everything that had been placed under Adam's authority fell with him when he fell.

Now lets translate it literally. 'you are cursed from/out of (min) all cattle, and from/out of (min) all wild animals.'

That changes the emphasis a little. He was not cursed more than they were, but was selected out from among them to be cursed. It best to check the Hebrew before you become too dogmatic. Hebrew, unlike Greek, is not an exact language.

And this is precisely what we would expect.

So at this stage it was only the snake who was cursed. Why should the other animals be cursed? They were not responsible in any way.

 

[valiant]

I believe that there is great significance in the fact that Christ bore a crown of thorns upon His head. In other words, seeing how the thorns were a direct result of the curse which came after Adam's sin and not before, Christ Who became a curse for us bore the same upon His head.

But in any view thorns were related to the curse on man. So that fits my view equally with yours. Man became involved with thorns because he was cursed. Christ became involved with thorns because He was cursed for us. Praise be to His Name!!!

 

[valiant]

I was reading though this thread and wondered an even bigger question.....Why 6 days? and a day of rest? I have heard that it represents 6000 years of history and the mil. reign....but God is God..he could have done it in a millisecond if he wanted and did he NEED to rest? Now ponder that!

Because 6 is the number of man, and seven is the number of God? Thus the writer presents Man's creation in SIX yom, and God's work as completed in SEVEN yom.

Furthermore the six is clearly divided into three and three. Three is the number of completeness. Two threes represent total completeness. That is how people thought in those days.

 

[Budman]

I was reading though this thread and wondered an even bigger question.....Why 6 days? and a day of rest? I have heard that it represents 6000 years of history and the mil. reign....but God is God..he could have done it in a millisecond if he wanted and did he NEED to rest? Now ponder that!

It represents man's workweek. Six days of labor followed by the Sabbath rest.

 

[valiant]

Good gravy. You didn't bother to read any of the thread did you? The Gap theory is bogus and Satan and his kind fell between the end of Creation Week (it was 'very good') and the Fall of Man. The earth did rotate from day one, it's just that the light was from God until He created the great lights in the sky to take over that job. And stop bringing up that verse concerning God's patience and our hope in Jesus return as relating to the Creation of all things, it doesn't apply at all. Context, context, context.

If the sun and moon did not exist, why should the earth rotate from yom 1? That is just your presupposition to support your theory.

As to the fact that with God yoms and millenniums are practically an irrelevance, I think he is perfectly justified in bringing it up. Not that one of God's yoms was exactly a millennium, but that it was timeless. It brings out that time means nothing to God which is a very relevant point.

 

[Jack_]

I think people have to stop thinking an old universe is mutually exclusive with a recent creation time. Do people think God seriously doesn't have the ability to create a universe that is already so far along the axis of time?