The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[Jason0047]

No, Jason, not a type of sin that is forgiven and one type of sin that is not forgiven. No place in that passage can one reach that conclusion, and that interpretation completely contradicts Romans 6:23 -

The wages of sin is death.​

This passage has nothing to do with forgiveness, but about EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES. Some sins lead to death - physical death on this Earth, like driving drunk, some sins don't, like cheating on your taxes.

The wages of all sin is death for the UNBELIEVER, but for the BELIEVER (to whom this passage is written), there are sins which lead to physical death on this Earth and some that don't.



No it's not. There is not ONE WORD about this passage being about folks who are struggling with a particular sin they are confessing:

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death. (from 1 Jn. 5)​

You are COMPLETELY misreading this passage, Jason.



You simply made all of that up.

That passage indicates NONE of that.

And refusing to confess and forsake sin is not what leads to spiritual death; UNBELIEF in Christ is what leads to spiritual death.

Believe in Christ and receive the FREE gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Him. Become a New Creation and experience the new desires that God works into the believer.

Jason - challenge for you: Go through the NT and see how many of the people that Jesus forgave in His ministry confessed and repented beforehand.

Let us know what you find .



Those versions do not remotely support your interpretation, either.

-JGIG

Not sinning is what is in view here. For it says,

" We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Also, if you were to look at every time the words "life" and "death" appear in John's epistle, you would see that they are contrast to one another. They are contrast in talking about that which is spiritual. Don't believe me? Just read it for yourself and you will see.

In addition, the Bible is intergrated message system. It speaks sometimes using the whole counsel of God's Word in many parts of Scripture. For various different truths are wide spride in the Holy Scriptures. Also, Paul was indeed talking about "spiritual death" in relation to the sins he mentioned. For he also says that they which do things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God; And in Romans 1:32, he says that they are worthy of "death." John clarifies what this "death" is. John essentially says that those who do these types of sins will face the "Second Death" (Which is the Lake of FIre) (Revelation 21:8).

 

[Jason0047]

We are living in the last days. Men shall be lovers of their own selves having a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof. I just read a disturbing article of a testimony from a woman about the corrupt and sick things that go on in Bible believing churches today in secret behind close doors. Horrible sins that would turn your stomach. Granted, I am not talking about them all being totally wicked and depraved in doing really sick things, but I know things are not right in the big popular churches of our day. For Jesus was correct that we can know a tree by it's fruit.

 

[Dan_473]

...but I know things are not right in the big popular churches of our day.

Hi Jason,

say, I thought I read on a thread in the past that you didn't go to a church...

did I understand that correctly? do you go to a church?

 

[Willie-T]

I'm feeling very disappointed in some of my brothers and sisters right now..... but, I know there would be a lot of the same attitude even in my own congregation. I guess it's just human nature.

 

[JGIG]

What's your thoughts on talking about the sins in a testimony setting to Glorify what God has done in your life? Grace to you.

We recently had a women's retreat - an unusual one where we 'older' women ministered to the 'younger' women in our fellowship and a couple of other fellowships aged 18-29. In that setting, several testimonies were given by women to an audience of women, and the content was inclusive of some graphic details regarding sexuality, suicide, bearing children out-of-wedlock, rape, incest, etc. BUT - these were not confessions of sins for the purpose of getting right with God, they were a relaying of life events - which did include sins, both committed by these women and against these women - from which God had delivered those testifying. It was very powerful!

The primary theme of the weekend was rejecting the lies the Enemy tells us about ourselves vs. believing the Truths that God says about us because of Christ's Work and who we are in Him. It was so Christ-centered and such a sweet and tender weekend.

One of the most powerful times was when we 'older' women silently did 'cardboard testimonies', but not in the usual way of what sins we had struggled with on one side of the cardboard and had been freed from on the other side, but rather what lies we had believed about ourselves on one side and the Truths God showed us on the other side, all while the song, Beautiful Things played. For instance, one side of the cardboard might say,

Rejected
Unloved​

and the other side would say,

Accepted
Beloved​

About 50 women with their individual struggles with lies the Enemy had told them in their lives and then those same women showed the Truths God had showed them - and that was the side that we left showing - the younger women were all bawling (some of us, too, so many hearts were touched). It was such a real time of sharing weaknesses and the redemption of God and it was a powerful time!

Would have been completely inappropriate in another setting, simply because of the nature of the content of those testimonies.

Now could those same women share their testimonies in a local fellowship? Of course - but with some editing for public consumption.

I'm just saying that we all, whether hearing confession or giving it, must do so in love, and that often means considering who is hearing what we have to say.

-JGIG

[video=youtube;1spkhp41ig4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1spkhp41ig4[/video]

 

[JGIG]

Not sinning is what is in view here. For it says,

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Also, if you were to look at every time the words "life" and "death" appear in John's epistle, you would see that they are contrast to one another. They are contrast in talking about that which is spiritual. Don't believe me? Just read it for yourself and you will see.

In addition, the Bible is intergrated message system. It speaks sometimes using the whole counsel of God's Word in many parts of Scripture. For various different truths are wide spride in the Holy Scriptures. Also, Paul was indeed talking about "spiritual death" in relation to the sins he mentioned. For he also says that they which do things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God; And in Romans 1:32, he says that they are worthy of "death." John clarifies what this "death" is. John essentially says that those who do these types of sins will face the "Second Death" (Which is the Lake of FIre) (Revelation 21:8).

You're not going to answer the questions I posed, are you.

You are preaching in direct contradiction to Scripture when you say that there are some sins which do not lead to spiritual (or the second) death.

The wages of sin is death. Period.

If that is Truth, then the death that John is speaking of in 1 John 5 cannot be spiritual or the second death.

It really is that simple and makes perfect sense.

What you are teaching, however, does not.

-JGIG

 

[dcontroversal]

You're not going to answer the questions I posed, are you.

You are preaching in direct contradiction to Scripture when you say that there are some sins which do not lead to spiritual (or the second) death.

The wages of sin is death. Period.

If that is Truth, then the death that John is speaking of in 1 John 5 cannot be spiritual or the second death.

It really is that simple and makes perfect sense.

What you are teaching, however, does not.

-JGIG

Amen and I agree...it comes down to doctrine....those who erronously believe you can lose it or maintain it by works have to spew this sinless, always working lie.......they totally reject the finished work of Christ on the behalf of men as a once for all act that satisfies the Father.....they must interject self into the equation and deny the fact that they still sin and or are still in a fallen, corrupt body of sin that fails every day in some form or fashion! And the word eternal does not mean eternal, but temporary! And justification does not men rendered legally innocent and the sanctification that is found in Christ is temprorary and based upon your own self and not Jesus!

 

[jonl]

I'm feeling very disappointed in some of my brothers and sisters right now..... but, I know there would be a lot of the same attitude even in my own congregation. I guess it's just human nature.

hi W-T,

I was kind of touched by JGIG’s post about a private woman’s testimonial about confessions of wrongdoing both by and against them. That probably wouldn’t be appropriate in a regular service, but it seems like practicing care and understanding. The problem with confessing only to each other is that it leaves out Christ as healer and forgiver.

Jimmy Swaggart in his television bible study “The Word” in the late 1980’s taught what JGIG taught, that “the cross of Christ” was a finished work and full salvation. This article teaches the same idea:

Did Jesus Accomplish Full Salvation On the Cross? Must I Add Anything?

Dear friends, considering the kinds of false teachings about salvation that are circulating even in Evangelical churches today, we need to get hold of this great fact once again. The Lord Jesus Christ did not go to the cross to make a down-payment for our redemption. He did not go to the cross to make a sacrifice that would be only partially sufficient, so that we could add our own righteousness to it, in order to stand on the Day of Judgment. We are not redeemed from our sins on the installment plan.
We cannot pay the debt! We have nothing to offer! And we don't need to pay the debt - not one tiny part of it! Jesus paid it all! "It is finished!"

I disagree to the extent that a believer still has a carnal nature as Paul described in Romans 6 and 7, and that he needs to confess and seek forgiveness to God if he falls. Human solace in private testimony meetings is part of “loving your neighbor” but everything hinges on faith in God through Christ Jesus. That’s where psychology has utterly failed. It practices group therapy and helping each other out while using SSRI pills and other pseudo-therapies, but it leaves out the need for Christ’s forgiveness and healing.

 

[KennethC]

Once again 1 John 5:16 is not about physical death in the flesh !!!

In order for that to be possible you would have to take the previous verses 13-15, and the following verses 17-20 that ends saying the words eternal life. Then in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is eternal death in the lake of fire, and the only way to escape that ending is by staying in the faith of Jesus Christ and repented/confessing of your sins.

Notice there is two parts to Romans 6:23 wages of willful sinning being death, but being forgiven by the Lords blood by faith and repenting/confessing of them to receive that remission leads to eternal life. No sins were automatically forgiven at the cross, as we still have to chose to put our faith in the Lord to receive that remission through repentance. Then in 1 John 1:7-2:1 shows how to continue to receive that remission by the Lord.

 

[JGIG]

hi W-T,

I was kind of touched by JGIG’s post about a private woman’s testimonial about confessions of wrongdoing both by and against them. That probably wouldn’t be appropriate in a regular service, but it seems like practicing care and understanding. The problem with confessing only to each other is that it leaves out Christ as healer and forgiver.

Please don't misunderstand my position - when I say confess sins one to another, it's with the understanding that the one or two hearing the confession are mature believers in a position to pray with and give counsel to the confessor - always always always pointing to Christ and His ability to bring healing and redemption and to build up the confessor with the Truths about who they are in Christ according to Scripture.

Jimmy Swaggart in his television bible study “The Word” in the late 1980’s taught what JGIG taught, that “the cross of Christ” was a finished work and full salvation. This article teaches the same idea:

Did Jesus Accomplish Full Salvation On the Cross? Must I Add Anything?


I disagree to the extent that a believer still has a carnal nature as Paul described in Romans 6 and 7, and that he needs to confess and seek forgiveness to God if he falls. Human solace in private testimony meetings is part of “loving your neighbor” but everything hinges on faith in God through Christ Jesus. That’s where psychology has utterly failed. It practices group therapy and helping each other out while using SSRI pills and other pseudo-therapies, but it leaves out the need for Christ’s forgiveness and healing.

Posted for your and others' consideration :

[video=youtube;689zk9p6Z0Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689zk9p6Z0Q[/video]


-JGIG

 

[KennethC]

hi W-T,

I was kind of touched by JGIG’s post about a private woman’s testimonial about confessions of wrongdoing both by and against them. That probably wouldn’t be appropriate in a regular service, but it seems like practicing care and understanding. The problem with confessing only to each other is that it leaves out Christ as healer and forgiver.

Jimmy Swaggart in his television bible study “The Word” in the late 1980’s taught what JGIG taught, that “the cross of Christ” was a finished work and full salvation. This article teaches the same idea:

Did Jesus Accomplish Full Salvation On the Cross? Must I Add Anything?



I disagree to the extent that a believer still has a carnal nature as Paul described in Romans 6 and 7, and that he needs to confess and seek forgiveness to God if he falls. Human solace in private testimony meetings is part of “loving your neighbor” but everything hinges on faith in God through Christ Jesus. That’s where psychology has utterly failed. It practices group therapy and helping each other out while using SSRI pills and other pseudo-therapies, but it leaves out the need for Christ’s forgiveness and healing.

I know this was not directed at me, but I wanted to answer because what Jesus did on the cross was pay the dept for our sins.
Nothing more and nothing less, and before hand He taught how we are to receive that remission; Faith, repentance, and baptism !!!

Then Apostle Peter said this;
[h=1]2 Peter 1:5-11[/h]5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[JGIG]

Once again 1 John 5:16 is not about physical death in the flesh !!!

Yes it is.

In order for that to be possible you would have to take the previous verses 13-15, and the following verses 17-20 that ends saying the words eternal life. Then in Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is eternal death in the lake of fire, and the only way to escape that ending is by staying in the faith of Jesus Christ and repented/confessing of your sins.

Repeated confession and turning from sin is not a requirement for salvation.

Belief in Christ is.

Jesus changes people from the inside out.

Turning from sin doesn't change people - it changes their behavior.

Notice there is two parts to Romans 6:23 wages of willful sinning being death, but being forgiven by the Lords blood by faith and repenting/confessing of them to receive that remission leads to eternal life.

Here are the two parts to Romans 6:23:

1. For the wages of sin is death;
2. but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There's nothing there about "but being forgiven by the Lords blood by faith and repenting/confessing of them to receive that remission leads to eternal life" - no, eternal life is the GIFT of God through Jesus Christ our Lord, not through our confessing and repenting. And eternal life is not something that our acts of confession/repentance LEAD to, it's a GIFT given - not something 'out there' to which to attain.

I was saved when I was 8. Someone told me that Jesus made a way to God for everyone who believes in Him and what He did - the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and that He lives as my High Priest today.

I believed in Who Christ is and what He did.

As a result of that belief in Him, I received the forgiveness of sins (cleansing), so that I could be filled with the righteousness and Life of Christ (put into my now undefiled temple), and then sealed with His Holy Spirit, until the day of redemption for God's glory (Eph. 1).

As an eight-year-old, I didn't have a lot of sin to confess, and in reality, that wasn't even a prerequisite for my salvation.

And 1 John 1:9 is the ONLY place in the New Covenant Scriptures where it says that IF you confess your sins God is faithful and just to cleanse you of ALL unrighteousness. And the focus is not on one's confession, but on God's faithfulness and ability to cleanse you based on the Work of Christ!

Other passages say to simply believe. Another to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.

Notice how these are all Christ's Work centered and not your confession/repentance centered.

I gave this challenge to Jason earlier: Go through the Gospels and show us the people who confessed and repented of their sins before Jesus forgave them.

No sins were automatically forgiven at the cross,

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)​

All sin was forgiven at the Cross.

For there to be more forgiveness, there would need to be more shedding of blood.

That's not going to happen because what Christ did was enough (Heb. 7:25, 10:10,18)

as we still have to chose to put our faith in the Lord to receive that remission through repentance.

You cannot produce one New Covenant verse that states that the remission of sins is through repentance.

I can produce one from the mouth of Christ that supports that the remission of sins is through blood, however:

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (from Mt. 26)​

Then in 1 John 1:7-2:1 shows how to continue to receive that remission by the Lord.

The Gospel says that we enter into what Christ has already accomplished. And that once we've entered into Christ by faith, receiving cleansing (forgiveness), His righteousness, and His Life, we are sealed by His Spirit.

It's that simple and does not require maintenance payments of confession and repentance.

1 John 1 is directed at unbelievers who were not believing that 1) Jesus had come as God in the flesh, and 2) that they had sin. 1 John 1:7 was telling them that they must be in Christ to have fellowship with believers and that Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:9 was telling them that if they 'fessed up and admitted that they were sinful that God would be faithful to cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness.

1 John 2 changes in tone from addressing people in general to addressing believers - "My little children . . . "

No one here is saying that it's okay to sin; sin is dumb and destructive. If you're sinning, stop it! But your salvation does not depend on your behavior, it depends on the Work of Christ and resting in Him.

And here's the really cool thing: Your behavior (speaking of the Fruit of the Spirit here) depends on you resting in Christ, not striving to stop sinning.

If you're resting in Christ and who you are in Him, the stopping-sinning thing is a whole lot easier . And waaaay more consistent.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I know this was not directed at me, but I wanted to answer because what Jesus did on the cross was pay the dept for our sins.
Nothing more and nothing less, and before hand He taught how we are to receive that remission; Faith, repentance, and baptism !!!

Please post for us the New Covenant Scriptures where Jesus told us how we are to receive the remission of sins through faith, repentance, and baptism.

We'll wait.

Then Apostle Peter said this;
2 Peter 1:5-11

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That has nothing to do with maintaining one's salvation, but with walking in Christ and remembering the forgiveness that THEY ALREADY HAVE in Christ.

Sheesh.

-JGIG

 

[jonl]

I know this was not directed at me, but I wanted to answer because what Jesus did on the cross was pay the dept for our sins.
Nothing more and nothing less, and before hand He taught how we are to receive that remission; Faith, repentance, and baptism !!!

Then Apostle Peter said this;
2 Peter 1:5-11

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Yes, and always with Jesus as advocate. (I John 2:1-3) If Jesus' atonement sacrifice was absolutely finished, would there be need for him to be advocate at the right hand of God, and for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Unlike a hireling preacher, Jesus follows up on the sheep who have entered the fold, made possible by his redemptive work.

 

[Jason0047]

Hi Jason,

say, I thought I read on a thread in the past that you didn't go to a church...

did I understand that correctly? do you go to a church?

And this is the problem with the thinking of believers today. They think going to a church makes them right with God. It doesn't. You will find no Command to attend a church like building with believers in relalation to being right with God spiritually. The Scriptures say do not forsake fellowship. This means have fellowship with believers. This can be with 2-3 believers at work, in your home, and or in a public place. I have been to a lot of churches, and something is always off in some way. They should be teaching the meat of God's Word but they are still on milk. They should be encouraging believers to get together in groups so as to witness to the neighborhood and or pass out Bible tracts. They should be teaching and training young men and women in the Word of God for free. They should be teaching believers in how to stop sinning. But it is more a light show so as to bring people in so as to accept Christ, feed them treats, and then from there it is on you. There is no training in righteousness. No program set in place to help point someone to walk like Jesus walked. They concern themselves with worldly matters when Jesus should be the focus and treasure in all they do. For there should not be one person who walks into a church and not be a part of being a disciple for Jesus Christ (if they accepted Him as Lord and Savior). But do we see that? No. We sure don't. We are living in the last days, for sure (Where the love of many has waxed cold).

 

[Magenta]

And this is the problem with the thinking of believers today. They think going to a church makes them right with God. It doesn't. You will find no Command to attend a church like building with believers who don't help you in relating to being right with God spiritually. The Scriptures say do not forsake fellowship. This means have fellowship with believers. This can be with 2-3 believers at work, in your home, and or in a public place. I have been to a lot of churches, and something is always off in some way. They should be teaching the meat of God's Word but they are still on milk. They should be encouraging believers to get together in groups so as to witness to the neighborhood and or pass out Bible tracts. They should be teaching and training young men and women in the Word of God for free. They should be teaching believers in how to stop sinning. But it is more a light show so as to bring people in so as to accept Christ, feed them treats, and then from there it is on you. There is no training in righteousness. No program set in place to help point someone to walk like Jesus walked. They concern themselves with worldly matters when Jesus should be the focus and treasure in all they do. For there should not be one person who walks into a church and not be a part of being a disciple for Jesus Christ (if they accepted Him as Lord and Savior). But do we see that? No. We sure don't. We are living in the last days, for sure (Where the love of many has waxed cold).

Hello Jason When I was baptized almost eleven years ago, it was after attending an Alpha Course at a fairly large church... I felt the course was designed to convince people, and at some point I realized I did not need any more convincing, but I carried through to the end at the behest of the pastor and then, after being baptized, and attending services there for a while, I fell through the cracks, just as you are saying... I had nobody instructing me, no mentor, no sense of the need to build myself up in Gods Word through daily disciplines, and I eventually fell away even though at the time I was attending two services every Sunday at different churches and listening to teachings periodically on the radio, especially while at work, and also while driving in my car. I remember so well meeting up with an acquaintance, and when he told me he read the Bible, I asked him why he did that, it seemed so foreign to me. Some time shortly after that I "accidentally" discovered an online religion forum on a secular site, and I was immediately hooked. I learned an awful lot just answering questions and countering the complaints against religion and God and Christianity and Scriptures, because I had to carefully research my answers to make sure I was not making any glaring mistakes. Sometimes I was pleased to discover I knew things I had no idea I knew, and I was seriously beginning to think that maybe I should be considering going to school to study theology! I was three years in by then (2007), and stayed on that site until the forum was taken down four years later (2011), after which I migrated to another site, this time Christian run, where I posted rather sporadically for the last three years to the atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists. I kind of feel like I have outgrown that site. Meanwhile I had started attending a couple of different churches, one of which I still attend, as it is a really wonderful congregation with a winningly personable pastor who truly cares about his flock, and I am back at the mega church, though not for Sunday services, but for the ongoing free weekly courses they offer. My spiritual community is comprised of more than all that still, is vast and varied, and feels to be really thriving. I am really enjoying this site so far. Thank you for adding to my learning experience here!

 

[jonl]

Please don't misunderstand my position - when I say confess sins one to another, it's with the understanding that the one or two hearing the confession are mature believers in a position to pray with and give counsel to the confessor - always always always pointing to Christ and His ability to bring healing and redemption and to build up the confessor with the Truths about who they are in Christ according to Scripture.



Posted for your and others' consideration :

[video=youtube;689zk9p6Z0Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=689zk9p6Z0Q[/video]


-JGIG

24:00 min mark: “God trusts your heart.”

25:30 “Refuse to believe that you’re an obstacle. Believe that you’re an instrument.”

30:00 “What if that’s a lie [that you’re the problem]? What if you’re not the problem?

31:30 “What if Jesus Christ is the power, and you’re the instrument.”

That’s kind of the positive thinking that was preached before the vietnam war. A lot of people (including christians) lost faith in a caring God after that period of relentless violence. It’s a lot easier for the younger generation to revive a positive and mutual trust in God.

An economic crisis might be just around the corner. Will the mutual trust be shaken again, like Europe was during wwII, and the US was during the vietnam war? Jesus said about the last days, “And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.” (Matthew 24:12) and (Matthew 24:13,14)
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[SUP]14[/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

One thing about modern times is that television and radio communications and jetliner transportation has made it possible to “preach the gospel of the kingdom to all the world.” No other time in history have christian missionaries been able to share the gospel to all peoples and nations of the world.

So the grace of God is extremely important, because the weakest vessel can be brought to the safe haven of eternal heaven. I’m thinking of the song, “When we all get to heaven.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ClwsynwVrI

 

[convallaria]

We recently had a women's retreat - an unusual one where we 'older' women ministered to the 'younger' women in our fellowship and a couple of other fellowships aged 18-29. In that setting, several testimonies were given by women to an audience of women, and the content was inclusive of some graphic details regarding sexuality, suicide, bearing children out-of-wedlock, rape, incest, etc. BUT - these were not confessions of sins for the purpose of getting right with God, they were a relaying of life events - which did include sins, both committed by these women and against these women - from which God had delivered those testifying. It was very powerful!

The primary theme of the weekend was rejecting the lies the Enemy tells us about ourselves vs. believing the Truths that God says about us because of Christ's Work and who we are in Him. It was so Christ-centered and such a sweet and tender weekend.

One of the most powerful times was when we 'older' women silently did 'cardboard testimonies', but not in the usual way of what sins we had struggled with on one side of the cardboard and had been freed from on the other side, but rather what lies we had believed about ourselves on one side and the Truths God showed us on the other side, all while the song, Beautiful Things played. For instance, one side of the cardboard might say,

Rejected
Unloved​

and the other side would say,

Accepted
Beloved​

About 50 women with their individual struggles with lies the Enemy had told them in their lives and then those same women showed the Truths God had showed them - and that was the side that we left showing - the younger women were all bawling (some of us, too, so many hearts were touched). It was such a real time of sharing weaknesses and the redemption of God and it was a powerful time!

Would have been completely inappropriate in another setting, simply because of the nature of the content of those testimonies.

Now could those same women share their testimonies in a local fellowship? Of course - but with some editing for public consumption.

I'm just saying that we all, whether hearing confession or giving it, must do so in love, and that often means considering who is hearing what we have to say.

-JGIG

Love this! It says something really good that you were able to trust each other enough to share openly, what a beautiful meeting that must have been.

Once I tried to share something in mixed church company that was breaking my heart at home. I chose my words carefully so that no one could possibly be offended, but I had to speak about it because I wanted prayer and if possible counselling, and certainly some alongsidedness from my brothers and sisters in the Lord. At least I thought they were that.

When I came to the end of what I was saying, the man running the meeting totally slaughtered my self-esteem by publicly telling me off, really saying that everything was my fault, and if I was a better wife it would not have happened. I could not believe what I was hearing.

Later on thinking about it, I saw that he had nil discernment to say what he said. I left that place pretty soon after but I must say it made me hesitant to share anything with anyone in a meeting.

Bad things do happen to people and people do need to talk about it. For me it started with the doctor, and then with some counselling urgently arranged for me by him which lasted over many months. It helped because the counsellor was wonderful, but I am still sad and disappointed there was no body of believers I could have appealed to, and none in the church sent by the Lord. A terrible indictment of certain portions of the modern church I feel.


Thanks for your post!

 

[Brother_Don]

The sin in me is between my ears, i can't stop the thoughts but i can control the reaction of the thought, simple, do or don't. in no way am i perfect, although i can be a perfectionist. When one tries to give the Almighty their best because the Almighty deserves nothing less than our best. Its not about being a legalist, its about being obedient and giving the Almighty our lives. The OP compares going back to the Truth, as going back to garbage, hmmm, how can any one compare any of the Word to garbage. i will stick with the whole Truth, the whole Word, and not to what just tickles my fancy, because we all know sometimes the Truth hurts, but it only hurts the flesh because the flesh is sin. Jesus will never insist that i obey, but if i don't, i have already begun to sign the death certificate of the Son of God in my soul. When i stand face to face with Jesus Christ and say,"i will not obey" He will never insist. But when i do this, i am backing away from the recreating power of His redemption. It makes no difference to God's grace what an abomination i am, if i will only come to the Light. but "woe is me" if i refuse the Light ( John 3:19-21).

 

[Jason0047]

Hello Jason When I was baptized almost eleven years ago, it was after attending an Alpha Course at a fairly large church... I felt the course was designed to convince people, and at some point I realized I did not need any more convincing, but I carried through to the end at the behest of the pastor and then, after being baptized, and attending services there for a while, I fell through the cracks, just as you are saying... I had nobody instructing me, no mentor, no sense of the need to build myself up in Gods Word through daily disciplines, and I eventually fell away even though at the time I was attending two services every Sunday at different churches and listening to teachings periodically on the radio, especially while at work, and also while driving in my car. I remember so well meeting up with an acquaintance, and when he told me he read the Bible, I asked him why he did that, it seemed so foreign to me. Some time shortly after that I "accidentally" discovered an online religion forum on a secular site, and I was immediately hooked. I learned an awful lot just answering questions and countering the complaints against religion and God and Christianity and Scriptures, because I had to carefully research my answers to make sure I was not making any glaring mistakes. Sometimes I was pleased to discover I knew things I had no idea I knew, and I was seriously beginning to think that maybe I should be considering going to school to study theology! I was three years in by then (2007), and stayed on that site until the forum was taken down four years later (2011), after which I migrated to another site, this time Christian run, where I posted rather sporadically for the last three years to the atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists. I kind of feel like I have outgrown that site. Meanwhile I had started attending a couple of different churches, one of which I still attend, as it is a really wonderful congregation with a winningly personable pastor who truly cares about his flock, and I am back at the mega church, though not for Sunday services, but for the ongoing free weekly courses they offer. My spiritual community is comprised of more than all that still, is vast and varied, and feels to be really thriving. I am really enjoying this site so far. Thank you for adding to my learning experience here!

I am glad you said this. Most do not see what I am talking about. But I am so joyful you have a pastor who you believe cares for you and the rest of the bretrhen under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and His Word.

Oh, and I am happy that you are learning things here at this site. Always double check (even everything that I say) with the Word of God. For as you know, the Bereans were more noble because:

(1) They kept an open mind.
(2) They searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not.

Anyways, may God bless you (and please be well this fine day).