Disproving Biblical Infallibility 101

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Jun 21, 2015
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Ok that's fair...no ..the text are not infallible as any one copy of a text would stand alone...but we have copies from all over the known biblical world ...reserved and recorded ...and in view of the overall truth of all the text and in their agreement we can say they are clearly the intended truth of Gods very Word.
My whole question is this: I can find several instances where the scriptures disagree, and no other instance is as "high profile"
as the ressurection story. My train of thought is that if there are differences in that, how can we be sure there are not issues contained elsewhere? At what point do we question every scripture that is not a cornerstone of salvation?
 
Jun 21, 2015
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This is his new argument to unseat the Bible.
Actually i am just trying to have a clear conscience, when i say "This is Gods truth", i want to be found as telling the truth by God. Truthfully, if i read each 4 biblical accounts of the ressurection story to 4 new Christians, i am lying to 3 of them. That makes me sad. I want to know truth. Period.

Forgive me for not knowing it all and seeking answers, and not accepting lies along the way. And thanks for saying "hes not even a real biblical christian" when ive posted 100 times that i love Jesus, my Lord and savior, i am a repentant man, no longer willingly choosing to sin, given to peaceful ways nd charity, forgiving and loving....just plainly have questions about what i see, and i guess NOT knowing it all is frowned upon in this establishment. so sad.....
 
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MPhil01

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Jan 14, 2013
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I find that people don't understand the difference between error in, say, an account you tell in court about your whereabouts during a murder or something and an "error" in the retelling of an account where the sequence of events don't matter as much.

In the instance of a person who is trying to prove they didn't commit murder, not only are that person's whereabouts critically important, but times must be consistent with other things that they can compare the story against (i.e. receipts, time stamps on surveillance footage, etc.). Whether that person went to the store before or after they stopped at home is important because the time it takes to get to the store may have given them a window to commit the murder.

But in the instance of the Bible we talk about how it is infallible. We throw words around like "perfect" or "infinite"… and then people trying to prove the Bible to be infallible or imperfect throw those words right back in our faces… and rightfully so. We are not on our game. We say that God is perfect… but perfect is a description of some kind of state of being. So is God perfectly square? Perfectly round? Perfectly moral? Perfectly white? Perfectly seasoned? Perfectly moral I think is a good description of God, but the other descriptions are ridiculous. My point is that we throw around this idea of perfection and yet many of us rarely consider what we mean by that. God is perfectly moral, He is consistent, what he tells you is right will be right regardless of sins he lets us repent for. Murder is always a sin and is always wrong regardless of whether we are people who lived under the Law or people who are fortunate enough to live under Grace. It will be wrong when we live under the restored kingdom and it was wrong before Cain ever slew Able. He is perfectly moral. In that sense HE is perfect.

We also say God is infallible, and He is so long as you understand what that means. God has put his faith in some people that have really messed up. Does that mean God made a mistake or God was wrong? No, if you think that then you're looking at infallibility wrong. Making a choice that doesn't work out the way you had hoped (because people have free will and don't always do what they say they'd do) doesn't mean you were wrong.

But we're talking about the Bible itself and we are debating it's infallibility. Let's go back to our murder trial for a moment. In a murder trial, the murder suspect's story has a goal, and that goal is to show that the murder suspect couldn't possibly have committed the murder. So a few minutes here and there are crucial, as I said earlier. If the timeline of the story leaves the suspect unaccounted for for 30 minutes, then the suspect is in trouble because 30 minutes is plenty of time to commit a murder. So his story better be infallible in regards to times and locations and sequences of events. Infallible means it can't possibly be wrong. Oh, but wait… when the suspect (who is actually innocent in this scenario I'm describing) described a moment when he went to the store… but instead of saying he bought some toilet paper, he bought some paper plates. Does that add or subtract anything from what matters about his story? What matters about his story are times and locations and sequences of events. The specificity of an item being purchased may not matter at all in trial. And so what is important about the suspect's interpretation of the events is still without mistake because where it matters, everything lines up.

So in the Bible you have the Gospels and there are minor discrepancies between the accounts. Maybe Jesus performed a one miracle in Luke at a different time in the sequence of events than he did in John. How important are the sequence of events in this case? I mean clearly they are important to some degree, for instance if one Gospel, say John, had Jesus dying, being placed in the tomb, and the rock was never put in place… but in Matthew Jesus died, was put in the tomb, and the rock WAS put into place then that calls into question the truth of the idea that Jesus' body disappearing was miracle. But that doesn't happen in the Gospels.

However, if in the gospels Jesus turned water into wine (and I'm just sort making stuff up now) and then in Luke he went to Thermopylae briefly, but in Mark he stops somewhere else… but then in both accounts they line back up with Jesus healing the blind man, does that really ruin everything? Can you call that a mistake? Perhaps both tellings are true, but one omitted one event. Omitting something from an account isn't wrong if it has no bearing on the crux of the issue. We need to look at what we're trying to prove. We're trying to prove that Christ performed miracles and that he was resurrected. Discrepancies in the accounts are not marks of fallibility, and actually discrepancy would be the wrong word. A discrepancy in a story is literally the incompatibility of two or more facts. A difference in two accounts CAN be a discrepancy but it can also easily be just the mark of a different perspective focused on slightly different details.

If my friend and I both witnessed the same UFO, we may both notice different details that will make each of our stories unique. The main details should line up, 1) We spotted it in the distance, 2) it crept closer and closer until it was just about overhead, 3) then it shot straight up and disappeared. Those facts can all easily line up. In my story, though, I was so focused on the shape and the lights that I lost track of time and it felt like the craft was only there for a minute or two… but I also give a lot of details about the shape of the craft, and the colors, and how it moved, and the sounds. Whereas my friend was a bit more panicked and trying to figure out where it was going so it felt longer to him and we gave more details about locations, like it was spotted heading towards us from the southeast and shifted direction briefly before heading back towards us, and then it shot up into the sky.

Two different stories, both true. I didn't remember that it shifted direction, or maybe I did but I said it went a different direction. My friend didn't remember the color of the craft maybe. But we both get the main points of the story across effectively.

Basically folks, these words like perfect and infallible get us into trouble sometimes because people trying to prove Christianity wrong look at these words as points of weakness that will allow them to poke holes. If the Bible is 100% literally true (which some people say… it drives me nuts when they say it), then someone who doesn't like religion will only have to find one time when the Bible isn't literally true. The problem is, there are TONS of times when the Bible isn't literal. There is figurative language in the Bible… Jesus isn't really a lamb, folks. He's not a branch, he's not a line. The fire of Gehenna is not eternal, it had a beginning and it clearly had an end (that ancient garbage heap isn't burning any more). So if you arguing that the Bible is 100% literal, then you're going to lose. If you say God is perfect, then you need to think about the capacities in which God is perfect. If you say God is infinite, then again, you need to think of the capacities in which God is infinite. And you need to be careful. If you say that God knows everything, then what about when the Bible says God couldn't even fathom the evil that human kind would perform (I forget the specific verse, but it's there)? What is your answer to that question?

And if you are someone who is arguing the Bible IS fallible (even if you're blaming it on human error) then you need to be equally careful. Again, where are the mistakes and ARE they mistakes? Is a slight difference between two stories really crucial to the entirety of the Gospels? What is the Bible trying to prove? If the differences between the stories don't affect the overall narrative being presented then I'd hardly call them mistakes.

It is often a fool's errand to go nitpicking. And I think that's the problem with a lot of these debates… they are too focused on minor details and shifting the rules. They want to take a commonly held and true belief (that the Bible is God breathed and infallible) and they want to boil that down into an assertion that the Bible is 100% literally true… and that's just two simplistic a way to look at it. It's not even reasonable to read a newspaper 100% literally. "Mitt Romney is leaning a bit left of his peers when it comes to tax reform." If I read that 100% literally, I wouldn't know what the heck it was saying? Mitt Romney is leaning left? Is his left leg shorter than his right?! No! it's figurative language regarding political beliefs.

Sorry, rant over.

EDIT: forgive me for any spelling errors or using "Their" when I should have used "There" I do know the difference but I type fast than I think sometimes.
 
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slave

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Mar 20, 2015
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The question that we must answer is what presupposition will we approach scripture with? If we presuppose that the bible contains errors, which seems to be your position Disciple PAG, then we will look for statements thru-out the bible that seem to contradict each other. And if we see things that seem not to fit together, we will assume that they are contradictions, which becomes, by the way, an even more faithful stance in opposition to Gods statements. However, if we presuppose that the bible contains no error, then we will believe that every apparent contradiction has a reasonable explanation for it. Now the reason I set that as a premise to my point is to say; If we prove but one of the over 150 scriptures in question to man, then your base of belief will carry you to have to prove all of them overwhelmingly to mans reasoning. We don't have that much ink in these texts.

Yet, God has answers for each one. but for every answer there is a Christian who faithfully only needs only one Verse to receive the truth. Versus like: Titus 1:2, "God who never lies." or, Psalms 12:6' "The Word's of the Lord are Word's that are pure.", or, Proverbs 30:5, "Every Word of God proves true." From these versus we have all we need to conclude the, yet heard, answers to the conflicts you have found.

But there is more than one way to the Lord, the easy way or the harder way, let us try to answer it. Here are some reasonable explanations in Mark, Luke, and John, for instance. Now remember these books, altho written about the same Man-God; Jesus Christ, still come from different perspectives, not different truths. For instance Matt. comes from the "King-Savior" perspective while Mark comes from the "Slave -Savior' perspective. Luke comes from the "Man- Savior" perspective and John rounds us off with the powerful "God-Savior" perspective. All perspectives are true of God but all add a element of Him different than the next.

Ok, Let's look at Jesus' Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem with Animals as an example of possible scriptural discord:

Jesus' entry into Jerusalem had to adhere to Prophecy but which one?

Mark 11:2-7, Luke 19:30-35. Following Jesus' instructions the disciples bring him one animal.

Matthew 21:2-6-- Following Jesus' instructions, the disciples bring him two animals.

John 12:4-- Jesus doesn't instruct the disciples at all and get's a single animal himself.

Mark 11:7; Luke 19:35; John 12:14-- Jesus rides a single animal when entering Jerusalem.

Matt. 21:7-- Jesus rides two animals at the same time.

The accounts in Mark and Luke mention that Jesus instructed the disciples to bring a colt for Him to ride on. Matt. 21 adds an additional detail that a donkey was also present. This is not a contradiction. It is simply one telling of the story including more detail than the other two accounts. The John 14 account simply doesn't give any detail at all regarding how Jesus acquired a colt. To claim that Matt. 21:7 says that Jesus rode two animals at one time is simply silly. It would be humanly impossible to drape yourself over a colt and a donkey at the same time.The common sense interpretation is that they set the clothes on the animals, and then sat Jesus on top of the clothes that were on the colt.

As a result, each story is consistent. There is absolutely nothing in your arguments so far that would necessitate an error on the part of Scripture. Your premise of looking for problems gives you poor reasoning, based on its influences,as well as defies common sense. It also does not give God reason to give you insight for it is thru His Spirit He shows understanding in the mix with knowledge. Hence, Garbage in/ Garbage out. And in the end, Proverbs 30:5 was correct from the start. "Every Word of God proves true. Would Jesus say to you, "Oh, ye of little faith!" Or would He simply say, "Because you have seen me you have believed; Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed." If you need to prove each and every one of the controversial scripture text in your view first before belief, Go ahead, we will even help. But you will be fighting human argument with Satan's influence to arrival at a faithful conclusion in God. Proverbs 30:5 is all you need.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Thats all well- but this thread is not about literal interpretation: rather the cause and effect of a fallible book. If it is proven that it contains errors that indeed are blatant oppositional statements, contradictions, if you will....how then, can any self respecting lover of truth, say with any certainty that it is infallible? Im sorry but you cannot. And it also demands that any critical thinker scan the rest of such a document with a wary eye...but your rant was spot on. What are the implications? Personally i say they are huge in theological doctrine formation....
 
Jun 21, 2015
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i think its funny that every last one of you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible is fallible, yet are so hardline scared to death of not knowing, that you defy all logic and just go with the "it can't be so" theory. laughable even. But i cannot say it is for nothing- as there are a few here whom know truth and are not blind- so i will continue pressing in until someone with fortitude to weather this storm with me arrives and actually discusses the differences we find openly. I am praying for revelation as to what the overlay of the 4 gospels could possibly show me- surely they are opposing, when standing by themselves...i do pray there is something i find soon though, as it is wearing on me to bear the sheer ignorance of so many...rarely if ever have i seen so many who were scared of there own intellect to the point of ignoring an elephant in the room....
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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Actually i am just trying to have a clear conscience, when i say "This is Gods truth", i want to be found as telling the truth by God. Truthfully, if i read each 4 biblical accounts of the ressurection story to 4 new Christians, i am lying to 3 of them. That makes me sad. I want to know truth. Period.

Forgive me for not knowing it all and seeking answers, and not accepting lies along the way. And thanks for saying "hes not even a real biblical christian" when ive posted 100 times that i love Jesus, my Lord and savior, i am a repentant man, no longer willingly choosing to sin, given to peaceful ways nd charity, forgiving and loving....just plainly have questions about what i see, and i guess NOT knowing it all is frowned upon in this establishment. so sad.....
If this is your true quest than God will give it to you. Human reasoning won't. Satan's suggestions won't. So start and believe in the fact He wants to answer you, in detail. Look to Him not to knowledge to prove Him. Where does your heart start from? God? If it is God He says, "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." You have the prover in you, simply pray and ask. He says, "Trust in the Lord with ALL YOUR HEART and lean not on your own understanding; in ALL YOUR WAYS acknowledge him, and He will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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I have a question for the rest of you:

Is this the same nonsense that he was spouting on those other threads under the other username?

If so, then I'm glad that I missed it.

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about and he apparently has some serious problems with reading comprehension. Hopefully, the rest of you know what I actually said and understand the same.
His aim is to discredit the Word of God by setting up standards according to which the Word of God must be judged by human reason, then showing that the Word of God "fails" his standards and must not be believed.

He has the same father as those who rejected the Word of God Incarnate.

He doesn't know that the Bible can be neither proven nor disproven,
that both are a matter of faith.
His faith is simply not the same as our faith regarding it.

He doesn't have a clue that our belief in the truth of the Bible does not rest on meeting any human standards,
but on the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirits of its truth and power.

He doesn't have a clue that he is wasting his time in his futile effort.

Because he does not have this witness, he cannot know its truth and power, for it is a closed book to him.

And he is foolish enough to think that he can cleverly undo what the Holy Spirit witnesses to us,
when all he is doing is proving who is his father and who is driving him in this maniacal effort.

Let's see if he gives an unequivocal answer regarding believing in the blood of Christ shed on the cross to cleanse his sin and save him from God's wrath at the final judgment.

Let's see if he "believes" in more than just Christianity, or if his belief includes any current Middle-Eastern or Eastern religion.
 
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Jun 21, 2015
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We can know nothing doctrinewise but Jesus, born, died, and resurrected.

We can know that we are to walk like Jesus to our utmost ability.

We can know that we are to love everyone, and be patient.

We can teach what is proven to us as true by revelation from Gods Holy Spirit.

We can believe the bible to be true in its bedrock doctrine of salvation. Nothing els until revealed.


We cannot trust man and his influences over our faith. Look what he has done to church, and to Gods word....
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Thats all well- but this thread is not about literal interpretation: rather the cause and effect of a fallible book. If it is proven that it contains errors that indeed are blatant oppositional statements, contradictions, if you will....how then, can any self respecting lover of truth, say with any certainty that it is infallible? Im sorry but you cannot. And it also demands that any critical thinker scan the rest of such a document with a wary eye...but your rant was spot on. What are the implications? Personally i say they are huge in theological doctrine formation....
You keep revealing your counter-Christian thinking.

You will never see the truth of the Bible by "critical thinking."
That is reserved to the witness of the holy Spirit to one's spirit.
And you don't have that witness. . .and won't see/believe the truth of the Bible until you do.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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His aim is to discredit the Word of God by setting up standards according to which the Word of God must be judged by human reason, then showing that the Word of God "fails" his standards and must not be believed.

He has the same father as those who rejected the Word of God Incarnate.

He doesn't know that the Bible can be neither proven nor disproven,
that both are a matter of faith.
His faith is simply not the same as our faith regarding it.

He doesn't have a clue that our belief in the truth of the Bible does not rest on meeting any human standards,
but on the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirits of its truth and power.

He doesn't have a clue that he is wasting his time in his futile effort.

Because he does not have this witness, he cannot know its truth and power, for it is a closed book to him.

And he is foolish enough to think that he can cleverly undo what the Holy Spirit witnesses to us,
when all he is doing is proving who is his father and who is driving him in this maniacal effort.

Let's see if he gives an unequivocal answer regarding believing in the blood of Christ shed on the cross to cleanse his sin and save him from God's wrath at the final judgment.

Let's see if he "believes" in more than just Christianity, or if his belief includes any current Middle-Eastern or Eastern religion.
You really are pathetic. How long must i bear your insolence and ignorance??
Ok, for the upteenth time. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. There is no hope for salvation nor hope for remission of sin without the shed blood of my Jesus. He died for me. My Spirit within me is the Holy Spirit, given by God for a saving mark. A mark of grace. I have sinned, but no longer willingly and knowingly sin. I am one guilty of repentance. i choose life and perfect liberty by living for Christ.

There is one mediator between God and man, and his name is Jesus Christ- no man comes to the Father but by him, and through Him.

The modern bible is mans attempt at combining the best record we have of what is most dear to us. I believe the Old and New testaments to be Inspired. Not personally written by God, and the older testament written by his prophets is more likely to be true than some newer testament recollections. I know with a surety that there are errors in the bible that do not affect is base truths. i believe the bible to be 99.9% accurate. I also know there are many people who claim to believe in the bible, yet refuse to obey its principles- such as women usurping authority over men. It never fails to suprise me how hard line bible believers are usually the most disobedient to its teachings- professing faith but denying it in there actions. Hypocritical heretical disobedient backbiters devoid of truth or reason. Just sayin.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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We can know nothing doctrinewise but Jesus, born, died, and resurrected.
No, my man, you don't know anything of Jesus if you don't believe and trust the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus' death to pay the penalty for your sin and to save you from God's wrath at the final judgment.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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If this is your true quest than God will give it to you. Human reasoning won't. Satan's suggestions won't. So start and believe in the fact He wants to answer you, in detail. Look to Him not to knowledge to prove Him. Where does your heart start from? God? If it is God He says, "Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." You have the prover in you, simply pray and ask. He says, "Trust in the Lord with ALL YOUR HEART and lean not on your own understanding; in ALL YOUR WAYS acknowledge him, and He will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6.
^^^ TRUTH WITH REASON.

Thank you.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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No, my man, you don't know anything of Jesus if you don't believe and trust the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus' death to pay the penalty for your sin and to save you from God's wrath at the final judgment.
Ressurection? Or did ya miss that part? Im really done talking to you.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Are you trusting in his sin-atoning sacrificial death to pay the penalty for your sin and to save you from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Ressurection? Or did ya miss that part? Im really done talking to you.
How convenient. . .and without giving an unequivocal answer to the question.

You do what your father does.
 
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Jun 21, 2015
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Just because some things do not make sense, when i want them to....is what this is all about. After all is said and done, how many could i have reached in the 3 days ive tried to get answers here??? In retrospect, having taken my own advice from the start would have been more beneficial to the kingdom- yet i sought. Still i seek, but fallibly i seek among men. Forgive me for having came here seeking- it is an experience i will not soon forget, regrettably. Thank you to those who were kind, and to those who were not- i forgive you. Pray for me as i continue to seek the Lords wisdom and will in and for my life. I really was not here to sow doubt, but to strengthen my witness in an effort to sow better seed.

#stillnoanswer

Forgive me Lord- In Jesus name i ask. help me. Amen.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Are you trusting in his sin-atoning sacrificial death to pay the penalty for your sin and to save you from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment?
yes. i am. wholly. not of works, but of grace. Please leave me alone Elin. I have had enough.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Just because some things do not make sense, when i want them to....is what this is all about. After all is said and done, how many could i have reached in the 3 days ive tried to get answers here??? In retrospect, having taken my own advice from the start would have been more beneficial to the kingdom- yet i sought. Still i seek, but fallibly i seek among men. Forgive me for having came here seeking- it is an experience i will not soon forget, regrettably. Thank you to those who were kind, and to those who were not- i forgive you. Pray for me as i continue to seek the Lords wisdom and will in and for my life. I really was not here to sow doubt, but to strengthen my witness in an effort to sow better seed.

#stillnoanswer

Forgive me Lord- In Jesus name i ask. help me. Amen.
It only became intolerable when you got smoked out.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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It's not about the book. You'll never resolve your issues with the 4 accounts because it can't be done (other than a suggestion on page one that different people will often witness different things out of one incident). But again, it's not about the book.

It's about another realm of existence. You don't need a book to discern that. You know, science is reporting conflicting information about dark matter and energy. Do those conflicts mean that they don't exist? Not if you ask those scientists who are researching it. They know it exists and they struggle with how to quantify it in the human realm. Just like the Apostles did.

If you're looking for God in a book you're going to be disappointed. If you're looking for God in the spiritual then the book will make more sense. Then you'll see that the important thing isn't the different viewpoints of the various witnesses to the resurrection, it's that there was a freaking resurrection!

Find the Bible thru God - not the other way around.






And admit that you're trolling because you keep the debate hot while knowing you'll never budge no matter what someone says. And you shouldn't. In print on paper it makes no sense because there is a conflict.

So get your nose out of the print and paper and set your heart on an honest search. Look up once in a while and God may open your eyes.