For those who say they were saved before they spoke in tongues....

WoundedWarrior · Aug 7, 2015

yeah, being a member here takes some patience and exercises forgiveness

it's a lot easier not to offend each other when we're face to face, i think, and talking through messages like this we don't always represent ourselves well. i hope you can stick it out.

i don't know what it's like on your side of the pond, but over here for some decades we've had a charismatic movement that i can't say is entirely wrong - but there are certainly many examples of it where outward displays of spiritual gifts - especially tongues - is so over-emphasized, and so wrongly used and interpreted, that it's been to the detriment of the gospel and of the faith.
there are more than a few people that are members here who have testimonies of coming out of it - Angela for example - and how much it had damaged their faith instead of helping it. there are all kinds of examples of tongues being absolutely faked and taught completely against what's in the scripture -- poking around the internet for a few hours i'm sure you can readily find some sort of history & evidence of that in the States. for a good example check out the recent "strange fire" conference on this subject -- lots of videos of preaching and teaching from this on youtube. it'll give you an idea of where some of us are coming from.

so what 3scoreand10 was saying i think is a reaction to that - more to the OP's opinion that no one who doesn't speak in tongues is saved ((this is actually taught from some false pulpits)) and referring to places where people are literally speaking gibberish because they've been led astray by these wolves.
i don't think he was talking about the real gift & working of the Spirit -- he's (rightfully, IMO) indignant with false teaching, and probably you are taking what he said the wrong way.

I think this is a fair and accurate overall assessment.

Thank you Posthuman!

posthuman · Aug 7, 2015

convallaria said:

^^

i think some of us are confusing convallaria with the person who started this thread - me too, at first (sorry!)
convallaria isn't the one who said "you must speak in tongues or you're not saved"

so let's not point hostility at her that is meant for someone else's ideas

WoundedWarrior · Aug 7, 2015

posthuman said:

Ding Ding Ding! Now, where's Phil? Why does he continue to lash out, yet remain silent to honest reasoning?

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

posthuman said:

maybe "corporeal" would have been a better word for me to use, sorry -
but i used "carnal" to refer to things that appeal to the flesh - through the eyes, through the ears, through pride, through feelings or emotions, like the mormon's 'burning in the bosom' -- all those things are external, deceptive and can be counterfeited. they pertain to what's going to be burned up and destroyed, or what will return to dust.

so what i mean is that i don't need to see physical miracles, outward physical signs, or have a deep emotional experience or high feeling to believe or to confirm what i believe. it's like this:

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
(1 Samuel 16:7)

A person may think their own ways are right, but the LORD weighs the heart.
(Proverbs 21:2)

Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
(Luke 11:39)

what i see in the scriptures is that the inside, the heart, is what really matters to God - more than outward signs. and it's demonstrated over and over in them that what appears good externally can be rotten inside, and also what appears base or foolish externally can be approved by God inside.
so tongues or healing or prosperity or piousness -- those things are the outside of the cup. i don't deny that they can be real blessings or come from God - i'm just saying that they are not incontrovertible evidence, they are not necessary if i have faith, and that they shouldn't form a basis for faith. i'm not singling out tongues here -- but it's an outward thing IMO, and man judges appearance, but God judges the heart.

I understand, thank you for the clarification

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

posthuman said:

i'm just saying it's inconclusive.
like i said, there are grounds to take it as an implication. Paul certainly didn't boast about it, he makes plain that not everyone does this as a gift, and the gifts he tells us we should desire do not include speaking in tongues - moreover as we both agree is 'the right angle,' he is clear that speaking to each other in a way that edifies is better than not, and i'm inclined to believe the same about our conversation with the Father.

what do you think about all the other things i wrote? not worried, i hope

I think we are coming to agreement!

Praise God!

Gr8grace · Aug 7, 2015

convallaria said:

Honestly, for me tongues is a minor issue. I believe that biblical tongues ceased in 70AD. If the believer wants to speak in tongues.........have at it. I post in threads just to give the other side of the argument every once and a while.

ALL of us are deceived in some areas. What kind of danger is 3scoreand10 in exactly?

I have never seen a believer here that threatens another believer with loss of salvation if they speak in tongues.

But many veiled threats that a believer will lose salvation if the don't believe in someones gibberish.

What exactly do you mean by "he is in big trouble?"

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

Honestly, for me tongues is a minor issue. I believe that biblical tongues ceased in 70AD. If the believer wants to speak in tongues.........have at it. I post in threads just to give the other side of the argument every once and a while.

ALL of us are deceived in some areas. What kind of danger is 3scoreand10 in exactly?

I have never seen a believer here that threatens another believer with loss of salvation if they speak in tongues.

But many veiled threats that a believer will lose salvation if the don't believe in someones gibberish.

What exactly do you mean by "he is in big trouble?"

I already posted the scriptures, you can scroll back and look.

WoundedWarrior · Aug 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

Here's 3score's comment: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-before-they-spoke-tongues-5.html#post2220317

I think 3score's comment can be interpreted to mean that he rejects "speaking in tongues" as a spiritual gift. Another, more likely, possible interpretation is that of Posthuman's opinion:

posthuman said:

It seems, to me, that Convallaria understood 3score's comment to mean that God does not hear those who speak in tongues and that those who speak in tongues are foolish.

Hope this helps.
-WW

Gr8grace · Aug 7, 2015

convallaria said:

Ok. So I take that as "He has lost his salvation and God will throw him in the LoF."

Common sense just gets thrown out the window with tongues.

Unbelievers spit upon Jesus Christ, ripped His beard out, beat Him to an unrecognizable state,hung Him on a cross to die. And He says," Father forgive them, they know not what they are doing."

And we have believers, plumb full of a old sin nature, telling other believers that they will be thrown in the pit for calling tongues Foolish.

Certain Tongues folks should just stick to tongues so we can't understand them. The stuff we can understand is just gibbering nonsense too.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 7, 2015

ladylynn said:

Gotta say how much I appreciate Bible commentary and copy and paste. This is an excellent answer to your post saying it's very questionable that this verse is not even 'true' scripture. I totally disagree with that since it is in fact in the Bible. I don't believe we can put in and take out what we don't agree with or what doesn't make sense to us. If there have been Christians who have eaten poison and died or been bitten by snakes and died that does not mean we take out this verse. Note the commentary below for a more in depth interpretation.

Note 10 at Mr 16:17: Some people have tried to get around these verses by saying that they were not found in some of the oldest manuscripts. The only reason that people desire to explain these scriptures away is because their lives don't match up with them. Instead of changing themselves, they would rather change the scriptures.
We still have the same authority today that Jesus gave His disciples to cast out devils. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it. We are still supposed to walk in victory over the devil, and if a true believer lays hands on the sick, they will recover. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb 13:8).
Note 11 at Mr 16:17: When Jesus said that we would do these signs in His name, He was referring to doing these signs through His power and ability. He gave us His power of attorney.
Note 12 at Mr 16:17: Casting out devils is not a special ministry for only some in the body of Christ. It is the right of every believer. No one who reads the Bible can deny that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people. Still some don't believe that this has any relevance to us today. All they have to do is look around at the depravity in our society, and they can see that we still have demon possession today
.
Note 13 at Mr 16:17: Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit discussed in 1Co 12-14. It is one of the first miraculous manifestations that accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Ac 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6).
There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1Co 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels. The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Ac 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost. There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1Co 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1Co 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1Co 14:5).
Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1Co 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1Co 14:4).

This is not what the passage says, it says the signs of those who believe "and are baptised I may add, another follow in the passage" is they will do this.

It does not say some of them, it says they will.

While I agree many of these miracles can still happen today, the fact they can does not mean we take a questionable passage and say it must be scripture. Unfortunately I do not have access to my Logos bible system right now. But I can post some counter commentaries which would say the opposite.

Scripture must agree, it can not contradict, and to say something must say just because it is in our english text is a flaw far to many have made.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 7, 2015

ladylynn said:

Except with the added words, "and is baptised" these wrds are found as an ending in all the gospel. (all the other gospels just say he who believes) the command to go out is also given to all. (ie make disciples)

the rest of what is said is found in no other gospel. and is not supported biblically in any other place.

Thats why I said it should be questioned if it is even an actual part of scripture (ecept for those who believe that we must be baptised in water, the passage actually does nnot do anything to support any doctrine in and of itself, and to be honest, does not even support being immersed to be saved by itself)

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

Click to expand...

Again, this is supported by other aspects of scripture, thus is not questionable.

Gr8grace · Aug 7, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree. And most translations will have footnotes or comments on things that are questionable or later additions. It is up to each of us, individually, to study it out and come to our own conclusion.

IMO, the verses in question, should NOT be in our translations.

Honestly, who wouldn't want them in there.........................it would be pretty fun, and self edifying to go lap up some cyanide, with a viper attached to our neck while we call down some thunder with tongues, to cast out a demon!

just-me · Aug 7, 2015

Many religious customs within the Christian churches are based on counsel of the “early post- apostolic writers” like Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian. The fact is that these men have shaped Christianity into what it is today. The most common theme from these founders of the Gentile church is that they severely opposed Jewish culture and law, as do most Christian pastors today. Most church founders appear to have been utterly unable to distinguish between Rabbinical Tradition and Torah observance as taught by Christ Jesus and the Apostles.

Tertullian had great influence, who lived between 155 and 230 CE.

Many religious customs within the Christian churches are based on counsel of the “early post- apostolic writers” like Ignatius, Marcion, and Tertullian. The fact is that these men have shaped Christianity into what it is today. The most common theme from these founders of the Gentile church is that they severely opposed Jewish culture and law, as do most Christian pastors today. Most church founders appear to have been utterly unable to distinguish between Rabbinical Tradition and Torah observance as taught by Christ Jesus and the Apostles.

Tertullian was born into a mainstream Gentile pagan family, but became a devout Christo-Pagan. Like Marcion he also found mainstream Christianity intolerable so he set out to make broad sweeping reform. Accordingly, by those who have researched his influence on the church, Tertullian was “distressed by the envy and laxity of the clergy of the Roman church” so he joined with the Montanist (also known as the Cataphrygian Heresy) founded by Montanus.

Montanus | biography - religious leader | Britannica.com

Montanism, known by its adherents as the New Prophecy, was an early Christian movement of the late 2nd century, later referred to by the name of its founder, Montanus. Montanus was formerly following the pagan mother goddess of fertility named Cybele (similar to ishtar/astaroth Deuteronomy chapter 1) where he learned plenty of things to adapt into Christianity. One of the achievements was to fall into a trance and prophesy under the influence of the “Holy Ghost,” insisting that his utterances were the voice of the “Holy Ghost.” Modern day “tongue-speaking” Pentecostal or Charismatic denominations apparently have very similar experiences to those of the church of Montanus. As Montanus' theologians and influence advanced, he was joined by two women who abandoned their husbands to follow the call of his prophetic ministry. The following website tells the story of these women.

What is Montanism?

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

Hi again! Thank you for helping.

Yes 3score said this:
"My God understands English. He also understand all REAL languages.
If you use foolish jibberish to speak to God, He will not here you. You are wasting your time and making a fool of your self.
I as amased at the ignorance of the Word of some people. "

I have a problem with just about everything he posted here.
First he is implying that the gift of tongues as in the "unknown tongue" that Paul speaks of, is not real.
He calls that gift jibberish secondly, as in rubbish, and then says that God will not hear. God does not give rubbish and I posted the scripture which says he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries unto God. So He does hear, obviously.
Then he says we are wasting our time and making fools of ourselves. So I posted the verse where Jesus warned us not to call our brothers and sisters fools because we are in danger of hell fire in doing so,
And finally he says that we are ignorant of the Word. I pretty much think that we have shown we are not, whereas he has posted no Bible verses at all.

To me, that is a very serious position to be in and really for his own good he needs to know that he can't insult and mock God in that way, and he ought not to be calling the children of God fools, or ignorant. Doesn't he know that God sees it all?

Like I said, for his own good he has to be shown his error. Jesus didn't say stuff for us to ignore, especially if it contains the words hell fire.

It would be great if he came back on here and apologized and said he would read up on tongues for himself, and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is his remaining in that position that I find worrying. Not for me, but for him.

ladylynn · Aug 7, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Like I wrote before, we each have to come to our own conclusions based on the Bible and the HolySpirit's leading. You see it differently and there are others who write Bible commentary who agree with you.., But there are just as many others who don't and I'm in agreement with them. For as many believers that are in the world and study the Bible and write commentary, not all see it one way or your way.
The accompanying verses that clarify the interpretation do indeed support Mark 16:15-20 and they are not isolated. I don't question the translation as it stands in Mark 16 to the end and am not alone. I want to make it clear this interpretation has just as much support from Scripture as you say yours does.

I agree. And most translations will have footnotes or comments on things that are questionable or later additions. It is up to each of us, individually, to study it out and come to our own conclusion.

IMO, the verses in question, should NOT be in our translations.

Honestly, who wouldn't want them in there.........................it would be pretty fun, and self edifying to go lap up some cyanide, with a viper attached to our neck while we call down some thunder with tongues, to cast out a demon!

Not interested in doing that stuff with the cyanide and viper...not a fan of snakes or poison Gr8grace and have never done anything like you said when I pray in tongues in my personal private prayer time.

Gr8grace · Aug 7, 2015

convallaria said:

Sister. the very verse that you are using to condemn another believer applies to YOU.

3scoreand10's comment is about something(One thing) that is foolish in his mind that you are doing. He is calling out ONE THING that he thinks you are in error about.He hasn't cursed you to the pit of hell for it.

You on the other hand, have called him completely foolish,empty and have cursed him to hell.

The verse you are using................It applies to what you are doing to 3scoreand10. Not what he said to you.

And it is not "Hell fire" judgement as going to the LoF. It is extreme divine discipline for cursing another Brother or Sister.

just-me · Aug 7, 2015

WoundedWarrior said:

If you have the gift of tongues, use it to minister the gospel to the lost who cannot understand the language you speak. It is incorrect according to the gift to use it in a self centered way.

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

If there are no lost souls in you midst, keep quite with your gift, and speak in your own language so you can edify those who talk in you own language.

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:19

The gift of discerning of spirits even without tongues is necessary to know what spirit is actually motivating. It needs to be confirmed by God's Word. Tongues are NOT the only gift! It is wise to not isolate it as something special over all the others.

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

Sister. the very verse that you are using to condemn another believer applies to YOU.

3scoreand10's comment is about something(One thing) that is foolish in his mind that you are doing. He is calling out ONE THING that he thinks you are in error about.He hasn't cursed you to the pit of hell for it.

You on the other hand, have called him completely foolish,empty and have cursed him to hell.

The verse you are using................It applies to what you are doing to 3scoreand10. Not what he said to you.

And it is not "Hell fire" judgement as going to the LoF. It is extreme divine discipline for cursing another Brother or Sister.

That is not at all true.

Utah · Aug 7, 2015

convallaria said:

Score is a man of God who walks the walk and understands the magnitude of God's saving grace in Jesus Christ. I initially "liked" his comment because knowing him, I felt he was mocking the attitude of Pharisees who proclaim you have to have the gift of tongues in order to be saved. After re-reading his post, I understand where you're coming from.

Be that as it may, make no mistake, Score loves God with all his heart, mind and soul, and would never mock God in any manner. If he tripped up in his communication to the point that God is upset, then the Spirit will move him to renounce his words, but God knows Score's heart, and that's all that matters. His salvation is not in question nor is it in danger.

convallaria · Aug 7, 2015

Utah said:

Thank you for understanding where I am coming from.

Yes you are right, God knows his heart: that will either be a comfort to him or a worry. Hopefully it was only an unfortunate use of words arising from a bad personal experience. Most things can be put right with humility and a repentant attitude.

There is a whole world of service out there required and we need to know that we cannot do this by the flesh. Whatever others are doing, or not doing, we need to make sure that we ourselves are moving in the will of God, and consistent with His plain word.

For those who say they were saved before they spoke in tongues....

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