Are We Really Predestined?

[hind_let_loose]

So, according to you, we have semi-free will? When God strives with an unregenerate man by His Spirit, that man can only willfully reject the same and not willfully embrace the same? What type of nonsense is that? Your rapist "god" isn't the God of the Bible.

I would encourage you to tone down your rhetoric, a bit. From what I can tell, you're hostility is more a matter of confusion than hatred of a God that predestines. The view isn't nearly as obnoxious as you think it is, and clarifications should be able to correct that.

Answering your questions:

No, we don't have semi-free will. We just have free will. It is sinful, though, since the fall of Adam. And as a leopard can't change his spots, so a sinner can't freely choose to do good. God's grace changes our will, and the Christian -- once born again and having his free will restored -- is the only person morally capable of choosing to do good. The new birth precedes the new nature, and the freedom to do good with one's will.

When God strives with unregenerate man, He mercifully, graciously, powerfully persuades some to repent and be saved. The rest, He doesn't use such persuasive and efficacious means to persuade. And they are not persuaded.

Note: the new birth must come first. Until we are born again, we are "dead" in sin (see Eph. 2:1,5). The dead don't raise themselves, and they don't choose life. But once we're born again, the living can and do choose life freely. The question of predestination revolves around the starting point: how we first come to grace. It isn't by our free will -- but God's. Once we're born again, His people can and do freely choose to walk in His ways.

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

We're born again, but not by the will of man. It is God's will that we're born again.

 

[vic1980]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

Shalom

 

[crossnote]

If the incarnate Christ didn't have free will, then why did He pray, "Not my will, but Thine be done"? Wouldn't Jesus have had to have had His Own free will in order to willfully subject it unto the Father's will?

He chose only to do the Father's will...call it free will if you want, but then you have to ask was it possible to go against the Father's will. ..all hypothetical.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I would encourage you to tone down your rhetoric, a bit.

And I would encourage you to stop spreading heresy here, completely.

From what I can tell, you're hostility is more a matter of confusion than hatred of a God that predestines.

You are the one who is hostile towards the true God of the Bible, friend, so spare me the old switcheroo, okay?

The view isn't nearly as obnoxious as you think it is, and clarifications should be able to correct that.

It's as obnoxious as it gets. Take, for example, the children of Israel who came out of Egypt. God had them all apply the blood of the Passover lamb to their doorposts as a type of Christ's redeeming blood, right? Then, God led them through the Red Sea, a type of water baptism, and also led them by a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day...types of being baptized in the Spirit. He gave them all spiritual food and spiritual drink, according to Paul in I Corinthians chapter 10, and Christ was the Rock Who followed them in their wilderness journeys. After all this, God wiped almost all of them out and wrathfully swore that they would never enter into His rest, right? Why? Because your carrot waving, sadistic "god" had previously predestinated them all to damnation and He was just having a little fun with them, right?

Answering your questions:

No, we don't have semi-free will. We just have free will. It is sinful, though, since the fall of Adam. And as a leopard can't change his spots, so a sinner can't freely choose to do good. God's grace changes our will, and the Christian -- once born again and having his free will restored -- is the only person morally capable of choosing to do good. The new birth precedes the new nature, and the freedom to do good with one's will.

We don't have semi-free will.

We have free will, but only to be sinful, but that's not semi-free will.

God changes our will which wasn't originally semi-free will.

Our free will is restored, but we always had free will which was only free in relation to sinfulness and wasn't semi-free will.

I hope that you're not in any sort of teaching position.

When God strives with unregenerate man, He mercifully, graciously, powerfully persuades some to repent and be saved. The rest, He doesn't use such persuasive and efficacious means to persuade. And they are not persuaded.

Liar.

God is no respecter of persons.

Note: the new birth must come first. Until we are born again, we are "dead" in sin (see Eph. 2:1,5). The dead don't raise themselves, and they don't choose life. But once we're born again, the living can and do choose life freely. The question of predestination revolves around the starting point: how we first come to grace. It isn't by our free will -- but God's. Once we're born again, His people can and do freely choose to walk in His ways.

The same old tired argument. Yes, people are dead in sin, spiritually speaking, but this does not mean that they cannot respond to an offer of new life in Christ. Again, you're promoting a shotgun wedding no matter how you slice and dice it. Are you married? Did you apprehend your wife without her consent? If you did, then you belong in jail. Do you have children? Did you place your "seed" within your wife without her consent? If you did, then, again, you belong in jail...and your "god" deserves the adjoining cell.

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

We're born again, but not by the will of man. It is God's will that we're born again.

Seriously?

Did you miss the parts about "as many as received Him" and "them that believe on His name"? Perhaps your Bible says "as many as he forcefully abducted" and "them that gave no consent"?

Seriously, just go away and take your rapist "god" with you.

 

[Gr8grace]

He chose only to do the Father's will...call it free will if you want, but then you have to ask was it possible to go against the Father's will. ..all hypothetical.

I believe it was possible. Jesus could have said, "I am done." and it would of been over..........for everybody.

New American Standard Bible
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

But Christ, has the will of the Father.

The Hypostatic union is a tough one!

 

[hind_let_loose]

It's as obnoxious as it gets. Take, for example, the children of Israel who came out of Egypt. God had them all apply the blood of the Passover lamb to their doorposts as a type of Christ's redeeming blood, right? Then, God led them through the Red Sea, a type of water baptism, and also led them by a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day...types of being baptized in the Spirit. He gave them all spiritual food and spiritual drink, according to Paul in I Corinthians chapter 10, and Christ was the Rock Who followed them in their wilderness journeys. After all this, God wiped almost all of them out and wrathfully swore that they would never enter into His rest, right? Why? Because your carrot waving, sadistic "god" had previously predestinated them all to damnation and He was just having a little fun with them, right?

No, He does all things for His own glory. Not because He is "having a little fun with them." Scripture tells us why all these things happened, conveniently, in the chapter you quoted:


1 Corinthians 10:6, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

1 Corinthians 10:11, "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

There was a divine purpose, or "intent", behind the way the events unfolded during this period of the Exodus and wilderness wandering. It was to educate people in the future. In 1 Corinthians 10:11, we even see a distinction between why these things happened (assuming that the historical events that unfolded had a higher, deliberate purpose) from the fact that they were "written." So, they were written for our admonition, and the actual events happened to give us an example.

Now, the Jews that fell and were destroyed didn't choose to do this for our example. But God chose to allow this fall and their ruin for our education -- so they would be an example to us.

How do you explain the fact that there was a divine purpose to allowing them to fall away and be destroyed?

The same old tired argument. Yes, people are dead in sin, spiritually speaking, but this does not mean that they cannot respond to an offer of new life in Christ. Again, you're promoting a shotgun wedding no matter how you slice and dice it. Are you married? Did you apprehend your wife without her consent? If you did, then you belong in jail. Do you have children? Did you place your "seed" within your wife without her consent? If you did, then, again, you belong in jail...and your "god" deserves the adjoining cell.

I actually work hard to persuade my wife that I should be loved. But my persuasive powers aren't infallible. God's are. When God persuades, we are persuaded. When God converts, we are converted. "Turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God." (Jeremiah 31:18) Once I'm persuaded, it is me -- by God's grace -- that loves God. I'm not functioning as a mere puppet, etc. Nor am I being raped, as you (unfortunately) blasphemously keep repeating, when you call God a rapist.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

No, He does all things for His own glory. Not because He is "having a little fun with them." Scripture tells us why all these things happened, conveniently, in the chapter you quoted:


1 Corinthians 10:6, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

1 Corinthians 10:11, "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

There was a divine purpose, or "intent", behind the way the events unfolded during this period of the Exodus and wilderness wandering. It was to educate people in the future. In 1 Corinthians 10:11, we even see a distinction between why these things happened (assuming that the historical events that unfolded had a higher, deliberate purpose) from the fact that they were "written." So, they were written for our admonition, and the actual events happened to give us an example.

Now, the Jews that fell and were destroyed didn't choose to do this for our example. But God chose to allow this fall and their ruin for our education -- so they would be an example to us.

How do you explain the fact that there was a divine purpose to allowing them to fall away and be destroyed?

I can't believe what I'm reading.

According to you, more than 600,000 Jews were allegedly created by God and then eternally damned for the mere purpose of serving as examples unto us? What type of examples could they possibly be if God predestinated them to damnation? Do you even consider your own words? I'm thinking that you don't. If somebody was predestinated unto salvation, then those more than 600,000 Jews were created and destroyed for nothing. Similarly, if somebody was predestinated unto damnation, then the same principle applies. How in the world can anybody be an example of anything according to your twisted definition of predestination? IOW, whatever God has allegedly predestined is going to happen anyway, so why the need for any examples?

The actual example that these people serve unto us is that we ought not tempt Christ like they tempted Christ. Again, He was with them during their wilderness journeys, but they simply refused to obey Him and/or to believe Him. Of course, in your twisted theology, they never had the ability to either obey or believe, right? Again, your "god" is a sadistic monster. I'd spit on him if he were before me.

I actually work hard to persuade my wife that I should be loved. But my persuasive powers aren't infallible. God's are. When God persuades, we are persuaded. When God converts, we are converted. "Turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God." (Jeremiah 31:18) Once I'm persuaded, it is me -- by God's grace -- that loves God. I'm not functioning as a mere puppet, etc. Nor am I being raped, as you (unfortunately) blasphemously keep repeating, when you call God a rapist.

When we repent, we are converted:

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."(Ezekiel 18:27-32)

Why did God ask these people, "Why will ye die?" if their wills weren't involved?

Also, I'm not speaking anything the least bit blasphemous against the true God. The "god" that you've been pushing, however, by your own definition, is a rapist.

I've got to get up for work in about 4 hours and I haven't even eaten dinner yet, so I'm done for the night.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

hind_let_loose:

I apologize for being rude to you, personally, but not for anything offensive that I might have said in relation to the "god" whom you've described here. Nothing boils my blood more than Calvin's teachings which I personally deem to have been some of the biggest blots upon Christianity ever. Even so, that doesn't give me the right to speak rudely to you, so I apologize for that.

Good night.

 

[crossnote]

I believe it was possible. Jesus could have said, "I am done." and it would of been over..........for everybody.

New American Standard Bible
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

But Christ, has the will of the Father.

The Hypostatic union is a tough one!

All hypothetical.

 

[psalm6819]

Predestination is the act of God choosing who will be saved and, through His work, ultimately saving all of them. Meanwhile, none of the people He didn't choose will be saved.

This isn't a discouraging doctrine. It is a necessary doctrine, and it is a comforting doctrine when combined with everything else taught in Scripture.

So, here are the key points:

1. Sin and our inability to come to Christ by our own free will

First, we are all sinners and incapable of coming to Christ by our own free will. We're just not able to turn from sin to Christ on our own. Period. So, if left to our free will, we're all on our way to hell. See especially the red font below:

--Jeremiah 13:26, "Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard change his spots? Neither can you who do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

--John 6:44a, "No man can come to me, unless the Father which sent me draw him."

--1 Corinthians 12:3b, "no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

2. If we cannot come on our own, then God has to bring us.

Second, if we cannot come to Christ by our own free will because we are sinners, then God is the one that has to bring us. This is all over the Bible, of course, but the green font in the verses quote above show this, too. God has to bring us to Christ. And when we come to Him, it wasn't because of what we did. It was because of what He did. Hence, we must be "born again." We didn't choose to be born the first time, and we didn't choose the second time, either. God is the author of life -- both our natural life and our spiritual life.

3. God does not bring everyone to Christ.


This is the hard part for many people to accept. They want to say that God is trying to save everyone, but a lot of people just won't agree to it. So, His Spirit is operating on everyone, doing His best to save them without violating their free will. If this is all God did to save us, then no one would be saved since our free will doesn't do good on its own. But here's what Scripture has to say about His passing over some people:

--John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Here, Jesus explicitly excludes many people in his prayer. He is only praying for the people the Father has given him -- and that is not everyone.

--Matthew 11:25-27, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomseover the Son will reveal him."

In this passage (see the red), Jesus thanks the Father for hiding the knowledge of Christ and the truth from many people, and only revealing these things unto some others (i.e., "babes"). In other words, there is a part of the world from which God is hiding the things of salvation -- and Jesus is thanking Him for doing it this way. Notice that no man can know God unless He is one of the people to whom the Father and the Son reveal Him (see the green), and this passage explicitly says that this isn't everyone. So God is not bringing everyone to Christ.

This means that God chooses some people to be saved, and He excludes others from this gift.

Now, the question is, why is this just?

Well, we did have free will at one point -- in the Garden of Eden. But we sinned in Adam. So, now, humans are sinners by nature and deserve to be condemned by God. God does not owe us a way of salvation any more than God owes fallen angels a way of salvation. (And it is interesting to note that God does not offer a way of salvation to fallen angels, but nobody complains about that -- probably because we're not fallen angels.)

In other words, since God doesn't owe any of us mercy, He doesn't have to save everyone. In fact, He doesn't have to save anyone. And the real mystery is that He saves anyone at all.

Finally, Christ's atonement is sufficient to save anyone who comes to him -- even if every person on earth converted. And God promises salvation to anyone who comes to Christ. So this doctrine should not be a source of discouragement to anyone. We can honestly call everyone to Christ, and God will -- He promises -- save any who come to Him. It is confusion about the doctrine that causes problems at this point. The doctrine itself is consistent with a universal offer of the Gospel.

Number 3 is so wrong, I can't even address it.

 

[atwhatcost]

And you're going to somehow back up that assertion, right? I've read the entire epistle to the Romans more times than I can even imagine to guess at, so I'm not ignoring anything. Also, I don't want God to be anything other than Who He truly is, so you really should lay of the false allegations. Now, if you want to discuss these things civilly and without throwing around totally baseless accusations, then I'll be more than happy to engage you in conversation. Thank you.

The way you did? By posting something you copied and pasted from someone sometime in the past?

I read the following somewhere once and it pretty much describes how some people view God (unfortunately):

“Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved. We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn't elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you. Take comfort knowing that we are not like God.

We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won't be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won't be because of anything we did. So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God? So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you. Please, we ask, don't let it bother you---if you find yourself in hell---that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases.”

That is not my God. That's for sure. This is my God:

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (I Timothy 2:1-6)

Why? I've already given what I see from the Bible. It's not helpless pies on a windowsill or an ark elected.

It wasn't blameless, particularly when I included what you copied/pasted.

Do you really want me to go post-by-post? I can. I didn't want to be harsh, despite that "false allegation."

Have you ever wondered exactly why I haven't studied the OT in so long? This is why. I love Romans. I love John. It puts me out of that tailspin that I was saved by my choice. Hubby and I were both saved before we ever met and both saved in roughly the same way. We went to bed one night not believing and woke up the next morning believing. I don't choose anything when I'm asleep. God apparently does. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

They're a bunch of cheaters.

Oh come on now. Don't like them. (Don't like them because they're annoyingly good. lol) But deflated balls in the cold and stealing another teams signals in preseason a few years earlier didn't really make them win. (I can't imagine they're the only team to do that too. They just got caught -- twice!) They've got annoyingly great talent in a completely annoying way... unless they're your team. I'd like them a lot better if they would have traded a few of their members to the Eagles ten years ago.

 

[atwhatcost]

No offence, but what I wrote is biblical and based upon scripture....so......nothing here in this post but your opinion!

You spend a lot of time fitting scripture into your beliefs. Since most of your belief is wrapped up in End Times, and I don't rightly care about that line of thought, I usually ignore it. But this time you wrapped it up to people choose God, which isn't scripture. It's anti-scripture.

I did give scripture to show why I believe what I believe, and frankly I'm the only one giving full books of the Bible instead of giving a few verses, then making them say what I want them to say. You know that or you wouldn't have targeted that down to one post.

What game is this? Am I supposed to copy/paste the same books, the same versus, the same points one person at a time, so no one has to read anything except when someone is talking directly to them?

You know me. I don't play games when it comes to God and his word.

 

[atwhatcost]

You were doing fine until you said "absolutely no one is saved by their choice". Are you set to defend that claim scripturally and preferably from the epistle to the Romans which we're presently discussing? It doesn't have to be from that epistle, but you can't just make claims without any Biblical support, can you? Where's the beef?

I did. My first post. Next?

 

[atwhatcost]

I took the question "Did Jesus have free will" to be referring to the incarnate Son of God not the preincarnate Son. So as Jesus, he did not have free will as He binded himself (or bound) to the Father's will. To have broken that covenant would have broken the Father's Will as well as His own while preincarnate and thus had sinned.

Ah. Kind of thought we were on the same train, until you said that. Apparently not, but we got to the same station together. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Typical tecnical Lynn...sigh. Moving moreso in a salvific manner. Sorry for the imprecision but I assumed it was inherent in my statement.

It may have been. I just totally missed it. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Btw, I'm a pretty good-natured guy, so please don't read this in the wrong tone. In all honesty, when I first engaged myself in this thread, I thought, "atwhatcost is going to show up and start hitting people over their heads with a rolling pin"...and here you are. lol. I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards you. It's just that I read in your other thread yesterday that you are "Reformed" and something told me that you were going to be here shortly. This could be an interesting conversation, but you really do need to back up your assertions with scripture or else they're going to be viewed as nothing more and nothing less than just your opinion. Again, no offense intended. I'm not mad at you or anything and I hope that we can discuss these things in a scriptural manner. I'm sorry if I sounded agitated or grumpy in my above quote. It wasn't my intent. Thank you.

P.S. If you bribe me with chocolate, then I'll be even nicer to you. lol.

You insulted me and Hind_let_loose over and over again. You believe we are heretics, but, hey? You're pretty good-natured, not agitated, nor grumpy? Are you aware that's the same line every spouse-abuser gives after they calm down?

I'm not a victim. If someone hits me, my impulse is to hit back. If they physically hit me, I go with that impulse. Oh, and being weak and a woman, I go for the groin. The only reason I haven't hit back is because God is in control. I can, and have, stepped out of God's will before.

Since you rather use cute little stories you found online to distort a doctrine, give scripture, but then defend it by typing "IOW," (which frankly means, "I don't like what it says, so I'll fix it"), and attack, meet Iggy, so I don't get kicked off this site.

That's what I think of this gentle man you believe I'm buying now.

 

[atwhatcost]

Number 3 is so wrong, I can't even address it.

Then Hitler is saved?

 

[atwhatcost]

One of the best books I have ever read on the subject is called, Predestined for hell? NO! by John R. Rice. If you can get your hands on a copy, I think you'll love it.

The Book of Romans is better. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

I believe it was possible. Jesus could have said, "I am done." and it would of been over..........for everybody.

New American Standard Bible
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

But Christ, has the will of the Father.

The Hypostatic union is a tough one!

If Jesus had done that then he wasn't obeying the Father and wasn't loving. In short, Jesus would have sinned, destroying all hope, including God.

Instead he went with "It is finished."