The Rapture
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Yes, we suffer tribulation now - man against man BUT we have not received tribulation from God.
Great Tribulation:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt. 24:21
I answered, Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . . Rev. 7:14
Oops . . . didn't see the other post -
Great Tribulation:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt. 24:21
I answered, Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . . Rev. 7:14
Oops . . . didn't see the other post -
A
Popeye, I won't quote your entire post, but it is an example of what I stated on the 1st page of this thread.
Those verses tend to 'appear' to point to a pre-trib rapture, but, as is often the problem when verses are taken out of context, they are slightly misleading to the scripture there, as a whole.
In the very same Book AND chapter that you quote from is this:
Matt. 24:29-31
"[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
And, someone mentioned before that the 'elect' could be the remnant of the Jews. Upon 'my' understanding/research of scripture, the 'elect' are not a physical/DNA/blood hereditary descendant of anybody, but they are those whom God FOREKNEW.
Meaning they are those devout believers who obey the laws of God, regularly do Works through Faith and truly have the Holy Spirit. That is the recipe for a Whole, Complete Christian. That is whom God FOREKNEW before the creation of the world. All the rest will not be gathered.
1 Peter 1:2 (those who have the Holy Spirit)
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."
2 Peter 2:6 (Jesus or the Holy Spirit)
"Therefore it is also contained in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Zion A Chief Cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
Romans 11:7 (This verse contrasts the 'elect' with the rest of the Israelites)
"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
1 Peter 1:10-11 (How to become 'elect.')
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Furthermore, we are all, as true believers in Christ, appointed to suffer and nowhere does the Bible state that any of us will be saved from tribulation.:
John 16:33 (Jesus speaking)
"These things I have spoken unto you so that you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Acts 14:22 (Paul & Barnabas speaking)
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Phil 1:29 (Just as Jesus suffered GREATLY, we as the 'elect' must suffer greatly)
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for Him,"
We are not appointed to WRATH, but that is NOT the Great Tribulation:
Romans 1:18 (The Wrath comes from God, the Trib comes from man/Antichrist)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"
1 Thes. 5:9 (We, the 'elect,' will be saved from the Wrath)
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Sorry for the long post. As stated earlier, this is a very complicated topic that can only fully be understood through much Bible study, analysis, reflection and prayer. I have found no clear, 'convincing' scripture to prove an opposing perspective other than that which I've presented here.
Those verses tend to 'appear' to point to a pre-trib rapture, but, as is often the problem when verses are taken out of context, they are slightly misleading to the scripture there, as a whole.
In the very same Book AND chapter that you quote from is this:
Matt. 24:29-31
"[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
And, someone mentioned before that the 'elect' could be the remnant of the Jews. Upon 'my' understanding/research of scripture, the 'elect' are not a physical/DNA/blood hereditary descendant of anybody, but they are those whom God FOREKNEW.
Meaning they are those devout believers who obey the laws of God, regularly do Works through Faith and truly have the Holy Spirit. That is the recipe for a Whole, Complete Christian. That is whom God FOREKNEW before the creation of the world. All the rest will not be gathered.
1 Peter 1:2 (those who have the Holy Spirit)
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."
2 Peter 2:6 (Jesus or the Holy Spirit)
"Therefore it is also contained in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Zion A Chief Cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
Romans 11:7 (This verse contrasts the 'elect' with the rest of the Israelites)
"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
1 Peter 1:10-11 (How to become 'elect.')
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Furthermore, we are all, as true believers in Christ, appointed to suffer and nowhere does the Bible state that any of us will be saved from tribulation.:
John 16:33 (Jesus speaking)
"These things I have spoken unto you so that you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Acts 14:22 (Paul & Barnabas speaking)
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Phil 1:29 (Just as Jesus suffered GREATLY, we as the 'elect' must suffer greatly)
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for Him,"
We are not appointed to WRATH, but that is NOT the Great Tribulation:
Romans 1:18 (The Wrath comes from God, the Trib comes from man/Antichrist)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"
1 Thes. 5:9 (We, the 'elect,' will be saved from the Wrath)
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Sorry for the long post. As stated earlier, this is a very complicated topic that can only fully be understood through much Bible study, analysis, reflection and prayer. I have found no clear, 'convincing' scripture to prove an opposing perspective other than that which I've presented here.
Last edited by a moderator:
I
Yes, we suffer tribulation now - man against man BUT we have not received tribulation from God.
Great Tribulation:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt. 24:21
I answered, Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . . Rev. 7:14
Oops . . . didn't see the other post -
Great Tribulation:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt. 24:21
I answered, Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . . Rev. 7:14
Oops . . . didn't see the other post -
Oops . . . didn't see the other post -
A
This is how I see it:
We can all agree that the enemy is alive and well in this world.
We can all agree that the enemy is the father of lies and the deciever and the reigning commander of all the dark forces referred to in Eph. 6:12.
We can all agree that there is much deception taking place right now in this world.
We must ask ourselves,"Which version of the Trib is the most deceptive, that would lead the most souls to hell?"
After scouring all the various verses that pertain to the concept and all possible perspectives, one can only conclude that the Pre-Trib is the most damaging to the Body of Christ as a whole, for the reasons I posted on page 1 and many other reasons.
Trust me, I'd love to believe in the Pre-Trib and I once did. It just isn't Biblical and doesn't stand up to reason when you consider all the important factors.
We can all agree that the enemy is alive and well in this world.
We can all agree that the enemy is the father of lies and the deciever and the reigning commander of all the dark forces referred to in Eph. 6:12.
We can all agree that there is much deception taking place right now in this world.
We must ask ourselves,"Which version of the Trib is the most deceptive, that would lead the most souls to hell?"
After scouring all the various verses that pertain to the concept and all possible perspectives, one can only conclude that the Pre-Trib is the most damaging to the Body of Christ as a whole, for the reasons I posted on page 1 and many other reasons.
Trust me, I'd love to believe in the Pre-Trib and I once did. It just isn't Biblical and doesn't stand up to reason when you consider all the important factors.
Exactly. The way it is written, it is speaking of some seriously troubled times.... NOT a specific "event". We have even tacked a "THE" on the front of the Latin-ish word "Rapture", trying to make it an "event".... when all that was ever said is that we will be snatched up to Jesus in the sky when He returns.
This is how "doctrines" are made out of nothing.
This is how "doctrines" are made out of nothing.
1 Corinthians 15:36 .) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 .) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 .) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 .) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 .) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 .) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 .) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 .) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 .) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 .) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 .) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 .) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 .) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 .) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 .) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 .) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 .) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 .) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 .) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 .) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 .) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 .) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 .) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
THE Rapture (in my opinion) will occur...........and I look forward to it with great anticipation.
37 .) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 .) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 .) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 .) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 .) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 .) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 .) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 .) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 .) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 .) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 .) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 .) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 .) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 .) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 .) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 .) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 .) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 .) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 .) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 .) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 .) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 .) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
THE Rapture (in my opinion) will occur...........and I look forward to it with great anticipation.
R
(Robin)
You were the mean spirited bully on the playground, right?
Just thinking about it, dumbfounds me ... you've posted over 5200 times ... it's hard to imagine just how many, many fellow believers that you have dis-spirited and sent away sad. Well Done! ("well," that is, for the spirit you appear to be serving)
You were the mean spirited bully on the playground, right?
Just thinking about it, dumbfounds me ... you've posted over 5200 times ... it's hard to imagine just how many, many fellow believers that you have dis-spirited and sent away sad. Well Done! ("well," that is, for the spirit you appear to be serving)