To comfort those who speak in tongues
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Nice! Good jab - I mean punch line 
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
Z
When I said Paul missed something I was just kidding. Because I saw many people arguing in an irrational way. Oh now I know that I am not that funny.
I believe that all gifts were supposed to work out God's plan and purposes, in any ways/ages of his choice and by his will, so as that he may be praised and honored.
I believe that all gifts were supposed to work out God's plan and purposes, in any ways/ages of his choice and by his will, so as that he may be praised and honored.
Nice! Good jab - I mean punch line
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
L
Nice! Good jab - I mean punch line
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
But Paul didn't miss anything... All of the gifts have something to do with bringing God's will to bear in this fallen world. Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we wont need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular spiritual language... Of all the gifts, faith hope and love are the only ones that won't be made unnecessary by redemption. That's why they alone will remain post redemption.
I agree with Zoe1234 about the arguing issue. And also agree with what you wrote here RickyZ. "Once this world is no longer fallen, ie when this world is redeemed, all but 3 of those gifts will become moot. We won't need healings when no one's getting sick, we won't need words of knowledge when we have access to all knowledge, we won't need tongues when we are once again speaking our pure singular language...."
Amen! We won't need these things the way we need them now. We will not need to have faith because we will see Him as He is and there will be no more striving to stay on track in the face of a fallen world. Right now we need to believe the Bible and the promises God has promised to those who believe, and take the promises LITERALLY. If we don't believe them literally we will not see them come true in our lives. Faith sees what is not obvious to the 5 senses. Faith is a gift.
P
That isn't bible. Where do you get doctrine like that?
2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
Revelation 21:1-4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Only in heaven will there no longer be a need for healing. While on this temporary, carnal earth everything is carnal and temporary. Scripture is clear on that.
1 Corinthians 5:9,10 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."
As long as this orb exists there will be sin and death, liars and deceivers, thieves and murderers, pain and suffering, on it.
2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
Revelation 21:1-4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Only in heaven will there no longer be a need for healing. While on this temporary, carnal earth everything is carnal and temporary. Scripture is clear on that.
1 Corinthians 5:9,10 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."
As long as this orb exists there will be sin and death, liars and deceivers, thieves and murderers, pain and suffering, on it.
I'm not sure where you see a conflict in our stands... You are right about the current condition of this orb, which is precisely why we need to be active in the gifts - all of them. To mitigate the current condition of this orb.
I would say that during the millennium the condition of this orb will be different. This world was created perfect, it was our fall that defiled that perfect condition and brought on the need for God's intercession. But when Christ the messiah returns to this orb, He will redeem and restore it to it's intended perfection. So during that time period, all but the 3 of the gifts will become moot.
As the case will also be on the new earth. The new earth will be perfect, thus we won't need any of the gifts intended to mitigate imperfection.
But faith, hope, and love will always be there. These are qualities of God, and will be eternally present even in perfection. I would posit that they are the very signs of perfection.
I would say that during the millennium the condition of this orb will be different. This world was created perfect, it was our fall that defiled that perfect condition and brought on the need for God's intercession. But when Christ the messiah returns to this orb, He will redeem and restore it to it's intended perfection. So during that time period, all but the 3 of the gifts will become moot.
As the case will also be on the new earth. The new earth will be perfect, thus we won't need any of the gifts intended to mitigate imperfection.
But faith, hope, and love will always be there. These are qualities of God, and will be eternally present even in perfection. I would posit that they are the very signs of perfection.
Mark 1:32
Matthew 4:24
Matthew 8:16
Matthew 9:35
Luke 4:40
1st century Judea didn't have hospitals.
instead, He healed entire cities.
my concern here, is that we are told not to boast in our wisdom, our knowledge, our strength or anything else -- but if we boast at all, we should boast only that we have known God's mercy.
so what will the Lord do when He finds us boasting of our power? of our "office" or station? when the only station He called us to is to be a servant?
will He not humble us, and take that power we thought was ours away, and take away that honor we told everyone was ours?
i say all this to these people because i fear God. but Russ will not hear me; because i didn't give him the preeminence he wanted when he said he was mightier than all of us, i'm on his 'ignore' list.
aren't we a body? then if Russ has a gift, i also do, and a prophesy for him. and if he cuts off the foot, he won't be able to walk -- so i mourn for him, and for all of us, because pride has crept in and disjointed us =\
Matthew 4:24
Matthew 8:16
Matthew 9:35
Luke 4:40
1st century Judea didn't have hospitals.
instead, He healed entire cities.
my concern here, is that we are told not to boast in our wisdom, our knowledge, our strength or anything else -- but if we boast at all, we should boast only that we have known God's mercy.
so what will the Lord do when He finds us boasting of our power? of our "office" or station? when the only station He called us to is to be a servant?
will He not humble us, and take that power we thought was ours away, and take away that honor we told everyone was ours?
i say all this to these people because i fear God. but Russ will not hear me; because i didn't give him the preeminence he wanted when he said he was mightier than all of us, i'm on his 'ignore' list.
aren't we a body? then if Russ has a gift, i also do, and a prophesy for him. and if he cuts off the foot, he won't be able to walk -- so i mourn for him, and for all of us, because pride has crept in and disjointed us =\
where do you see jealousy?
who has said "boy i wish i could tell everyone i was more spiritual than them too" ?
but i do see people prophesying & saying we should be humble, and seek love rather than miraculous signs. yes, there are many more people who prophesy here than there are that call themselves prophets!
who has said "boy i wish i could tell everyone i was more spiritual than them too" ?
but i do see people prophesying & saying we should be humble, and seek love rather than miraculous signs. yes, there are many more people who prophesy here than there are that call themselves prophets!
I hear you about Russ. I had him on ignore for a while because he is indeed puffed up with his self-proclaimed 'position'. But there's a huge tendency in these forums to toss the baby with the bathwater. The pendulum swings far and wide here, my only warning is to try not to take positions based upon it's extremes.
Jesus only healed people who came to Him. If you didn't seek Him out, if you didn't have faith in Him, you weren't healed. The Bible clearly states that there were places where He couldn't help them due to their lack of faith.
Your position that we should be emptying hospitals lies on the periphery of the pendulum swing. It never worked that way with Christ, and one should not expect it to work that way with us.
Jesus only healed people who came to Him. If you didn't seek Him out, if you didn't have faith in Him, you weren't healed. The Bible clearly states that there were places where He couldn't help them due to their lack of faith.
Your position that we should be emptying hospitals lies on the periphery of the pendulum swing. It never worked that way with Christ, and one should not expect it to work that way with us.
interestingly enough, we had a young woman speaking in tongues today when we met to worship. and it was interpreted, not just by another, but by the Spirit in each of our hearts.
the young woman spoke in another language of how that Christ is Lord, above all things, and she fell down at His feet to worship Him. her mother explained it to us but we all already knew exactly what she said.
afterwards she didn't act differently at all. she didn't even mention what she'd done a single time. everyone that spoke with her, she told them she loved them, and gave them a big hug, as is her custom. so everyone that heard her, praised God, and said "amen" -- and no one had opportunity or cause to grumble about her possibly boasting or being arrogant.
i like her example. if you even tried to talk to her about tongues, she'd change the subject, talk about joy, and try to give you a hug instead.
the young woman spoke in another language of how that Christ is Lord, above all things, and she fell down at His feet to worship Him. her mother explained it to us but we all already knew exactly what she said.
afterwards she didn't act differently at all. she didn't even mention what she'd done a single time. everyone that spoke with her, she told them she loved them, and gave them a big hug, as is her custom. so everyone that heard her, praised God, and said "amen" -- and no one had opportunity or cause to grumble about her possibly boasting or being arrogant.
i like her example. if you even tried to talk to her about tongues, she'd change the subject, talk about joy, and try to give you a hug instead.
Help me understand what it is then, if not jealousy, that causes people to pour out such venom, and think that they are doing God a service?
The pages are totally riddled with it and I don't believe you haven't seen it yourself and joined in. To be honest I am quite shocked at the general ignorance of church matters on here.
That would be bad enough if it affected only those who believe this way...they have made their choice...but what about the young ones on here who are being told that God has stopped doing anything miraculous and exciting, and that there are no prophets called by God any more? That is a vile perversion of the word of God BTW
The pages are totally riddled with it and I don't believe you haven't seen it yourself and joined in. To be honest I am quite shocked at the general ignorance of church matters on here.
That would be bad enough if it affected only those who believe this way...they have made their choice...but what about the young ones on here who are being told that God has stopped doing anything miraculous and exciting, and that there are no prophets called by God any more? That is a vile perversion of the word of God BTW
What a very wise woman preserving her life in a hostile atmosphere. Not surprising she won't discuss it if she feels you will shut her down or treat her like we have been treated on here. Perhaps she will discuss it with you when she discerns you are genuinely interested, rather than wanting only to prove her wrong.
it's a pretty common criticism of people who boast about having power to heal. & the reason it doesn't work this way is like convallaria said -- it's at the Lord's command, not ours. like i tried to explain to peacefulbeliever pages & pages ago, it's the Spirit who distributes the gifts, not us who choose them, and the Spirit who uses us to do God's work, not us who use the Spirit to do the work we choose to do.
if that's the case -- then if God uses me to prophesy one day, how can i say the next day "i am a prophet" ?? then i'm boasting of myself. because it is the Spirit that moves me, not me who constrains the Spirit. if God loosens my tongue one day, how can i say the next day "i speak in tongues!" ?? when it was the Spirit speaking through me!
the gift of the Spirit isn't exercised on human command, but by God's command. that's the difference between 'having' a gift, as though we could boast of it, and 'receiving' a gift, not being able to boast, because the Spirit is like wind, and no one knows where it will blow.
if that's the case -- then if God uses me to prophesy one day, how can i say the next day "i am a prophet" ?? then i'm boasting of myself. because it is the Spirit that moves me, not me who constrains the Spirit. if God loosens my tongue one day, how can i say the next day "i speak in tongues!" ?? when it was the Spirit speaking through me!
the gift of the Spirit isn't exercised on human command, but by God's command. that's the difference between 'having' a gift, as though we could boast of it, and 'receiving' a gift, not being able to boast, because the Spirit is like wind, and no one knows where it will blow.
you have no idea about this woman, or how she's treated. we all love her very much and thank God for the joy that springs up in all our hearts whenever we're gathered together with her.
she's mentally disabled and normally can't speak intelligibly at all, only grunts and shouts. sometimes the Spirit moves in her and she's lucid. today people were giving testimonies and she motioned for the microphone. you should hear her sing! what joy she has!
some kind of contrast to people who are normally lucid and attribute their unintelligible speech to the Spirit, isn't it?
she's mentally disabled and normally can't speak intelligibly at all, only grunts and shouts. sometimes the Spirit moves in her and she's lucid. today people were giving testimonies and she motioned for the microphone. you should hear her sing! what joy she has!
some kind of contrast to people who are normally lucid and attribute their unintelligible speech to the Spirit, isn't it?
You said this in the previous post
"afterwards she didn't act differently at all. she didn't even mention what she'd done a single time. everyone that spoke with her, she told them she loved them, and gave them a big hug, as is her custom. so everyone that heard her, praised God, and said "amen" -- and no one had opportunity or cause to grumble about her possibly boasting or being arrogant.
i like her example. if you even tried to talk to her about tongues, she'd change the subject, talk about joy, and try to give you a hug instead.
Something is not adding up here. Why did you say then that she changes the subject and talks about joy instead if in fact she cannot speak? God bless her.
You are using her to make your point in a very deceptive way.
there are several things.
one, many people have been hurt by false prophets and false teachings that emphasize feelings and mystic experience and babbling that has nothing at all to do with the real Spirit of God moving.
two, people who haven't even personally been affected by such things hate falsehood and how it hurts others, and are quick to expose it.
three, people are just so myopic that sometimes they can't even see what you're saying and assume you're saying something else. just like how many times have you been jumped on about saying a person has to speak in tongues or they're not saved, when i KNOW you haven't said any such thing at all!?
i've been hasty to reply to you sometimes too, and i'm sorry. you might remember i said i've spoken in tongues, and like i just posted, we had someone speaking in tongues this morning too. we also do missions work in Cuba, and the Spirit has moved people to speak in Spanish fluently there too who really knew not hardly enough of the language to be speaking the way they did. i'm not against this at all and i don't deny it. i just think it's really easy to be deceived or to be deceptive about speaking in tongues in particular, and widely receives way more emphasis than it should.
oh yeah - four, people rightly have the concern that speaking in tongues is being idolized, and expressing that concern is wrongly interpreted as 'attacks' or 'unbelief' because we're not as good at communicating as we should be, and everyone's a bit myopic too.
and then five, yes, some people are just plain proud & ornery, and can't get over whatever-it-may-be enough to speak gently and honestly consider what others have to say. i'm sure guilty of this.
i do know some people who have some sort of jealousy - at least the desire that they would have as emotional a response as some charismatic people do. it's usually the same people though who say that emotion isn't what faith is built on, and that emotion itself can't be trusted. i wonder if that chicken and that egg didn't both arrive at the same time?
convallaria, i've skipped most of the pages of this thread because there's been so much division in it and i don't want to be involved. so i don't know just how bad it's gotten. i hope you know i don't mean you ill and that the point i really wanted to get across in the last few posts is that we shouldn't boast in gifts, but in God, who gives them.
i'm sure i didn't do a great job of getting that point across can you forgive my big feet for stepping on the flowers?
one, many people have been hurt by false prophets and false teachings that emphasize feelings and mystic experience and babbling that has nothing at all to do with the real Spirit of God moving.
two, people who haven't even personally been affected by such things hate falsehood and how it hurts others, and are quick to expose it.
three, people are just so myopic that sometimes they can't even see what you're saying and assume you're saying something else. just like how many times have you been jumped on about saying a person has to speak in tongues or they're not saved, when i KNOW you haven't said any such thing at all!?
i've been hasty to reply to you sometimes too, and i'm sorry. you might remember i said i've spoken in tongues, and like i just posted, we had someone speaking in tongues this morning too. we also do missions work in Cuba, and the Spirit has moved people to speak in Spanish fluently there too who really knew not hardly enough of the language to be speaking the way they did. i'm not against this at all and i don't deny it. i just think it's really easy to be deceived or to be deceptive about speaking in tongues in particular, and widely receives way more emphasis than it should.
oh yeah - four, people rightly have the concern that speaking in tongues is being idolized, and expressing that concern is wrongly interpreted as 'attacks' or 'unbelief' because we're not as good at communicating as we should be, and everyone's a bit myopic too.
and then five, yes, some people are just plain proud & ornery, and can't get over whatever-it-may-be enough to speak gently and honestly consider what others have to say. i'm sure guilty of this.
i do know some people who have some sort of jealousy - at least the desire that they would have as emotional a response as some charismatic people do. it's usually the same people though who say that emotion isn't what faith is built on, and that emotion itself can't be trusted. i wonder if that chicken and that egg didn't both arrive at the same time?
convallaria, i've skipped most of the pages of this thread because there's been so much division in it and i don't want to be involved. so i don't know just how bad it's gotten. i hope you know i don't mean you ill and that the point i really wanted to get across in the last few posts is that we shouldn't boast in gifts, but in God, who gives them.
i'm sure i didn't do a great job of getting that point across
can you forgive my big feet for stepping on the flowers? you try asking her about what she said when she took the microphone, or how she's done other things in the past like prostrating at the altar, or leading songs, or other times when she's been lucid and spoken clearly about things, and you're not going to get anywhere. she'll bring something else to your attention and just bubble with happiness.
i honestly think here's a woman with a pure heart and a better example in many ways than many of us. she's done things and said things that make us say "amen!" that are in no way at all mimicking what she's seen someone else do; we know her, and we understand what she communicates, and we know when something greater than her is moving her. she doesn't flaunt that Spirit, but simply lives by it.
i honestly think here's a woman with a pure heart and a better example in many ways than many of us. she's done things and said things that make us say "amen!" that are in no way at all mimicking what she's seen someone else do; we know her, and we understand what she communicates, and we know when something greater than her is moving her. she doesn't flaunt that Spirit, but simply lives by it.