To comfort those who speak in tongues

[peacefulbeliever]

it's a pretty common criticism of people who boast about having power to heal. & the reason it doesn't work this way is like convallaria said -- it's at the Lord's command, not ours. like i tried to explain to peacefulbeliever pages & pages ago, it's the Spirit who distributes the gifts, not us who choose them, and the Spirit who uses us to do God's work, not us who use the Spirit to do the work we choose to do.

And I agree that it is the Spirit who distributes the gifts and there are different gifts (gift of salvation, gift of holy Spirit, the gift ministries)- the gift of salvation is the new birth within that new birth we are given the gift of holy Spirit and are able to "manifest" that gift of holy Spirit in nine ways listed in 1 Cor. 12 . . . there are also the gift ministries - that of a prophet, apostle, teacher, preacher, evangelist. God gives all of us the gift of holy Spirit and that gift can be manifested in nine ways . . . God energizes that gift within us but it is US who operates . . . I can receive revelation - word of knowledge, word of wisdom - for a situation but if I do not put into practice what God has told me . . what good is it . . where is the profit? When God inspires me to speak in tongues - if I do not open my mouth and speak - then what good is it . . . where is the profit? God energizes - All these manifestations are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit distributed to every man severally (translated "private" in 2 Peter 1:20meaning one's on) as he wills . . . as I said before he refers back to the closest relative noun which is "man" in every man. It is God that gives, and energizes but we are in control - Just as "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets". Else we would be walking down the street and as inspired would just start speaking in tongues with no control - I would be leery of anything in which we lost control!

if that's the case -- then if God uses me to prophesy one day, how can i say the next day "i am a prophet" ?? then i'm boasting of myself. because it is the Spirit that moves me, not me who constrains the Spirit. if God loosens my tongue one day, how can i say the next day "i speak in tongues!" ?? when it was the Spirit speaking through me!

When a person prophecies - it is a message from God for the people present - it isn't prophesy - as in future events- does that make someone a prophet as one who tells of a future event? or does that make someone a prophet as one who speaks for God? When a person prophecies, it is God who will inspire you when to speak and give you what to say, just as in speaking in tongues - God gives the language - He does not possess your vocal cords, the mechanics of speech, and MAKE you speak. When Paul says - I will sing in the Spirit and I will sing with my understanding, I will pray in the Spirit and I will pray with my understanding - doesn't that sound like he is in control of when he speaks in the Spirit, i.e. speaks in tongues?

the gift of the Spirit isn't exercised on human command, but by God's command. that's the difference between 'having' a gift, as though we could boast of it, and 'receiving' a gift, not being able to boast, because the Spirit is like wind, and no one knows where it will blow.

In every manifestation of the Spirit - it is first inspired by God - IOW - God will inspire through word of wisdom or word of knowledge to let you know when to pray for healing, when to speak in tongues privately without interpretation or publicly (in the church) with interpretation, etc. I wouldn't even attempt to pray for healing for someone before God has not revealed to me to do so for He will also inspire me WHAT exactly to pray for.

Anyway, I have not boasted of ANY experience, feelings, whatever . . . there is nothing to boast of.
And I don't come here to post to argue but to try to clarify. But no one has to agree with me! It is after all what I believe scripture to be saying within the context of these three chapters! Oh me, would that be "private interpretation" or interpreting scripture within scripture!! I hope the latter!

 

[ladylynn]

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[TD="align: left"]Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. [/TD]
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[TD]

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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] Alot of people think that the way to get health is to watch what they eat. For example, many people say that the Mediterranean diet is a very healthy one. I agree, generally. But do you know that the people whom Jesus healed were also on a Mediterranean diet? They did not eat pork and prawns, for example, because they were Jews and these things are not kosher for them.

I know that you want to walk in divine health. But God does not want your focus to be on food—what to eat, what not to eat—or even exercise—how to exercise, when to exercise. All these are natural means which the people of the world trust in. It is better to trust in the Lord and His finished work, than to put your confidence in the latest man-made diet plans and exercise regimes.

At the cross, Jesus took your sicknesses and carried your pains, and by His stripes you were healed. (Isaiah 53:4–5) The Bible even tells us how to escape sickness and premature death—by discerning the Lord’s body when we partake of the Lord’s Supper. (1 Corinthians 11:29–30) But instead of focusing on these truths, many of us prefer to focus on dieting and exercising.

Now, I am not against eating well or exercising. I myself exercise and I do watch what I eat. For example, I don’t like to eat oily stuff because it makes me feel uncomfortable. And when I have to preach, I do my best not to eat foods that make me burp!

But I eat generally healthy stuff not because I trust dieting to make me healthy. I exercise not because I trust exercising to make me healthy. No, I trust the finished work of Christ to make me healthy. I eat well because I like to feel good and I exercise because I enjoy the rush, the sweat!

God wants you to be free when it comes to eating and exercising. Don’t make laws for eating and exercising, and then trust these laws to give you “divine” health. Trust in the finished work of Christ. Discern His body when you partake of the Holy Communion. And just enjoy your food and workout!
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Destined to Reign devotional


Ultimately this is how a believer should look at life imo. Taking God as His word and knowing He is actually involved in all aspects of our lives. Even to the degree of what we eat. Seriously, we could get poisoned by some food manufacturer's factory mistake unless God intervened.

Is our trust in our own abilities or in Jesus in us? Taking this literally will change a persons life! But too many Christians have seen how life will happen and since life happens and God doesn't seem to be stopping sickness pain and suffering than it must be His will. And they do not want to go against His will so they accept these awful things as if God willed it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Job had a similar idea when he said "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord" That was Job talking and he didn't get to read the book of Job like we do. He didn't see satan as the one giving him all his troubles. He didn't know that satan was the one who kills steals and destroys. God did not send sickness, that came from the devil. Job is the oldest book in the Bible and not much was known about the enemy and spiritual warfare.

After Job found out that he was not in control and went through that ordeal, God gave him 3 times what he lost. God restored to him what the enemy took and Job lived to a ripe old age. (BTW, a ripe old age is not something to shun) Religion has it all wrong. When God is our Father He wants us to look to Him and trust Him for all we have. To rest in Him and specifically tells us not to worry or fear.

But we - like Job try to take hold of our life and make things happen. We put God off to the side and we get in the drivers seat saying unbiblical stuff like "God helps those who help themselves" but all the while we are asking God to help us as we are helping our selves and leaning on the arm of the flesh. 1 Tim.6:17b "nor to set their hopes on uncertain riches, but on God, Who richly and ceaselessly provides us with everything for our enjoyment." That is NOT religious!

God has given us all things to enjoy, He wants us to enjoy our life here as we serve Him. ., but how many Christians talk about that as God's will for us? Instead religion says to not enjoy, to just hang on and suffer until you get to heaven.
We need the gifts for today for all the reasons already posted here on this thread., but the only way to get them is to trust that He desires to work through us and letting go of our own agenda and letting God lead. If we don't believe in tongues, we won't ever know about it personally., if we don't believe in healing for today, we will not be able to see it in our lives today. Faith is what we are called to.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things we hope for, being the proof of the things we do not see and the conviction of their reality (faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses.)

How many of us actually take that verse to heart and walk in things we don't see but hope for? We do however walk really well in all the things we see with our 5 senses and prefer to stay on that playing field. I've found that as long as I stayed there, I did not see God take over my life. Taking that step of faith is far more important than the gifts. The gifts come but the fruit of the faith is walking in that assurance that God is for you and not against you.

 

[Yonah]

Three specific sign gifts are ended according to 1 Cor 13:8. The rest of the gifts continue in the body of believers.

The sign gifts will resume at the end of the age according to Joel 2. This is the latter rain of which Pentecost was the former rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

question: if what you say is true (and its not) why would Peter say this??? Act 2:15
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.dream dreams:
Act 2:18
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19
And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter clearly said this was happening right then and there....

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

question: if what you say is true (and its not) ...

You would make Scripture stand against Scripture? Then I am forced to question your understanding, because what your propose is impossible.

 

[KennethC]

God is not a liar. God will never transgress His word. It is the height of foolishness to contend that God can be manipulated by the will of men.

If you claim the gift of healing then proceed immediately to your local hospital and heal all the sick and infirmed therein.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When I saw this statement and also those who gave you likes for this post, I quickly felt the Holy Spirit within me get grieved that somebody would say such a thing as this shows you know absolutely nothing how the gifts are given and used.

They are given by the Holy Spirit through us to administer as it fulfills the will of God, they are not to be done willy nilly and carelessly. They also are not done to go out and just heal everybody, as some are put in place for a purpose of spiritual growth for those who deal with these issues.

They also are never to be done openly or to make a show out of it !!!

God is not the one who has been manipulated, it is you and those like you who misunderstand the gifts and how they are to be done. And comments like the above bolded and underlined shows that you don't !!!

I will pray for you !!!

 

[KennethC]

You would make Scripture stand against Scripture? Then I am forced to question your understanding, because what your propose is impossible.

Yonah gave you clear cut scriptures from Acts 2:15-21 that shows this is the fulfillment of what the prophet Joel said.

Acts 2:17 is not for the tribulation period alone, it is clearly for the time we are in now and started back at Pentecost !!!

 

[RickyZ]

the gift of the Spirit isn't exercised on human command, but by God's command.

True, true, but one must keep in mind the lesson of Matthew 13:58 He didn't work many miracles there because of their lack of faith. So while it's true that the working of gifts and miracles are not at our beck and call, it must still be remembered that we do have the 'power' to stop the workings of gifts and miracles in their tracks.

And I think that's what is being missed by a lot of people here. We can't make them start, but we certainly can make them stop.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

You know, I never saw Jesus empty a hospital. He must be a fake too.

I work in a hospital and have prayed for people who instantly were healed. The Patients came back to me about their healing and said the doctors were confounded. They could not explain why the person was well. Also Jesus did not heal sometimes because the religious fanatics were causing unbelief among the people. "Isn't this the carpenters son, he's no prophet or healer". Must be the ancestors of some people here who also would kill the prophets of God.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

True, true, but one must keep in mind the lesson of Matthew 13:58 He didn't work many miracles there because of their lack of faith. So while it's true that the working of gifts and miracles are not at our beck and call, it must still be remembered that we do have the 'power' to stop the workings of gifts and miracles in their tracks.

And I think that's what is being missed by a lot of people here. We can't make them start, but we certainly can make them stop.

Exactly the point which is being made by the godly here and intentionally being ignored by the rest.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Yonah gave you clear cut scriptures from Acts 2:15-21 that shows this is the fulfillment of what the prophet Joel said.

Acts 2:17 is not for the tribulation period alone, it is clearly for the time we are in now and started back at Pentecost !!!

On Target! The prophecy of Joel started on that day as Peter testified. But I won't point that out because its so clear. Or I guess he was nobody either, just another one of those prophetic people of the Living God who need to be ignored.

Nothing to see or hear here, keep moving or you might hear from the Living God.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

When I saw this statement and also those who gave you likes for this post, I quickly felt the Holy Spirit within me get grieved that somebody would say such a thing as this shows you know absolutely nothing how the gifts are given and used.

They are given by the Holy Spirit through us to administer as it fulfills the will of God, they are not to be done willy nilly and carelessly. They also are not done to go out and just heal everybody, as some are put in place for a purpose of spiritual growth for those who deal with these issues.

They also are never to be done openly or to make a show out of it !!!

God is not the one who has been manipulated, it is you and those like you who misunderstand the gifts and how they are to be done. And comments like the above bolded and underlined shows that you don't !!!

I will pray for you !!!

 

[RussellJBenigno]

question: if what you say is true (and its not) why would Peter say this??? Act 2:15
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.dreamdreams:
Act 2:18
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19
And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter clearly said this was happening right then and there....

You understand this because you are being lead by the The Living God.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

You would make Scripture stand against Scripture? Then I am forced to question your understanding, because what your propose is impossible.

No scripture is not being pitted against scripture. It's Corrupt Interpretation through vain imagination standing against The Scripture and The Prophecy of the True God.

 

[posthuman]

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Corinthians 12:11)
​

the Spirit distributes these works as the Spirit determines. it is not as man determines. there is one subject in that clause -- the Spirit. you do not choose to be a prophet or a healer or an exorcist or a worker of miracles. it is not by human command. it is not according to human determination. that is why Paul says desire the greater gifts, not 'determine for yourself' the greater gifts.

this is completely in harmony with what's also written here:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
(1 Corinthians 14:29-33)
​

the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet in the sense that he can shut up when he ought to. not in the sense that he can determine for himself when he will have a prophesy to give, or if he will be a prophet in the first place. if man determined how the gifts were distributed, then it would not say "if a revelation is made to another sitting" -- but "when another sitting determines to have a revelation."

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(1 Peter 1:21)
​

the origin - and the determination of prophecy and every other gift of the Spirit - is in the Spirit, not in human will.
we may be able to stop our mouths in order to speak in an orderly way, and restrain ourselves for the sake of proper conduct, but we do not determine to be given any gift, or to retain it, and we do not turn the Spirit "on" and "off" like a toy. we have a "pause" button. that's all. not "play" and not "stop"

But if I say, "I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name," his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
(Jeremiah 20:9)

I remained utterly silent,
not even saying anything good.
But my anguish increased;
my heart grew hot within me.
While I meditated, the fire burned;
then I spoke with my tongue
(Psalm 39:2-3)


​

this is what happens when you think you can just stop. your heart catches fire. the Word then, is not subject to my determination to be spoken or not as i desire, but i can wait my turn to speak.

if the gift was according to human determination, Jonah would have made it to Tarshish.

"What I have vowed I will make good.
I will say, ‘Salvation comes from the Lord.’ ”
And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
(Jonah 2:9-10) ​

 

[convallaria]

there are several things.

one, many people have been hurt by false prophets and false teachings that emphasize feelings and mystic experience and babbling that has nothing at all to do with the real Spirit of God moving.

two, people who haven't even personally been affected by such things hate falsehood and how it hurts others, and are quick to expose it.

three, people are just so myopic that sometimes they can't even see what you're saying and assume you're saying something else. just like how many times have you been jumped on about saying a person has to speak in tongues or they're not saved, when i KNOW you haven't said any such thing at all!?

i've been hasty to reply to you sometimes too, and i'm sorry. you might remember i said i've spoken in tongues, and like i just posted, we had someone speaking in tongues this morning too. we also do missions work in Cuba, and the Spirit has moved people to speak in Spanish fluently there too who really knew not hardly enough of the language to be speaking the way they did. i'm not against this at all and i don't deny it. i just think it's really easy to be deceived or to be deceptive about speaking in tongues in particular, and widely receives way more emphasis than it should.

oh yeah - four, people rightly have the concern that speaking in tongues is being idolized, and expressing that concern is wrongly interpreted as 'attacks' or 'unbelief' because we're not as good at communicating as we should be, and everyone's a bit myopic too.

and then five, yes, some people are just plain proud & ornery, and can't get over whatever-it-may-be enough to speak gently and honestly consider what others have to say. i'm sure guilty of this.

i do know some people who have some sort of jealousy - at least the desire that they would have as emotional a response as some charismatic people do. it's usually the same people though who say that emotion isn't what faith is built on, and that emotion itself can't be trusted. i wonder if that chicken and that egg didn't both arrive at the same time?


convallaria, i've skipped most of the pages of this thread because there's been so much division in it and i don't want to be involved. so i don't know just how bad it's gotten. i hope you know i don't mean you ill and that the point i really wanted to get across in the last few posts is that we shouldn't boast in gifts, but in God, who gives them.
i'm sure i didn't do a great job of getting that point across can you forgive my big feet for stepping on the flowers?

Thank you for your apology and I forgive you totally. Hopefully we can plot a course for some mutual edification and mature discussion that will help us all to actually learn something and grow.

Please can we have no more mud-slinging at Russ also. He is much better than me at speaking directly which God uses in Russ's role in the church. We need a thread on "why the prophets are still hated", I may start one....To a great extent we accept this is part of the process so there are reasons, but not the ones commonly agreed on this forum.

When people keep affirming this vile cessationist false doctrine with such energy it sterilizes the teaching/learning environment to the point of death.

Thanks for your input

 

[convallaria]

True, true, but one must keep in mind the lesson of Matthew 13:58 He didn't work many miracles there because of their lack of faith. So while it's true that the working of gifts and miracles are not at our beck and call, it must still be remembered that we do have the 'power' to stop the workings of gifts and miracles in their tracks.

And I think that's what is being missed by a lot of people here. We can't make them start, but we certainly can make them stop.

This is the whole problem! Well spotted. The environment that is being created by cessationists and others on here is a quenching environment preventing the Holy Spirit from moving. Quench not the Spirit! Despise not prophesyings! (1 Thess 5)

We who minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ minister liberty to the hearers, not bondage. We have to extend liberty to the land we all occupy in order for the occupants (visitors) to live and to minister in liberty. If we manipulate the word of God so that it imprisons and restricts people spiritually, we will not see any move of God: it is a quenching process.

 

[convallaria]

No scripture is not being pitted against scripture. It's Corrupt Interpretation through vain imagination standing against The Scripture and The Prophecy of the True God.

I fear that many christians would prefer Jesus to be a tiny powerless babe OR safely dead on a cross, according to their idolatrous leanings. The last thing these religious manipulators want is to know that Jesus is neither of those things any more, because He is risen in POWER.

The implications of knowing this has impact on the church because if we are truly born again, then Christ is alive and POWERFUL in us!!!!! Everything changes!!!! Conviction operates! Hope soars! Faith expands! Miracles happen!!

Come on peeps, let's leave behind the mud-wallowing and look UP!!!

 

[RussellJBenigno]

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Corinthians 12:11)
​

the Spirit distributes these works as the Spirit determines. it is not as man determines. there is one subject in that clause -- the Spirit. you do not choose to be a prophet or a healer or an exorcist or a worker of miracles. it is not by human command. it is not according to human determination. that is why Paul says desire the greater gifts, not 'determine for yourself' the greater gifts.

this is completely in harmony with what's also written here:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
(1 Corinthians 14:29-33)
​

the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet in the sense that he can shut up when he ought to. not in the sense that he can determine for himself when he will have a prophesy to give, or if he will be a prophet in the first place. if man determined how the gifts were distributed, then it would not say "if a revelation is made to another sitting" -- but "when another sitting determines to have a revelation."

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(1 Peter 1:21)
​

the origin - and the determination of prophecy and every other gift of the Spirit - is in the Spirit, not in human will.
we may be able to stop our mouths in order to speak in an orderly way, and restrain ourselves for the sake of proper conduct, but we do not determine to be given any gift, or to retain it, and we do not turn the Spirit "on" and "off" like a toy. we have a "pause" button. that's all. not "play" and not "stop"

But if I say, "I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name," his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
(Jeremiah 20:9)

I remained utterly silent,
not even saying anything good.
But my anguish increased;
my heart grew hot within me.
While I meditated, the fire burned;
then I spoke with my tongue
(Psalm 39:2-3)


​

this is what happens when you think you can just stop. your heart catches fire. the Word then, is not subject to my determination to be spoken or not as i desire, but i can wait my turn to speak.

if the gift was according to human determination, Jonah would have made it to Tarshish.

"What I have vowed I will make good.
I will say, ‘Salvation comes from the Lord.’ ”
And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
(Jonah 2:9-10) ​

Finally something that makes sense, in accord with scripture and I can agree with. Now was that hard?

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Because that would be at the command of GOD....not yours?

All things must be in accord with scripture. All healings must be done by direction. All Words of God [prophecy] must be verified before being given. No interpretation of scripture is private and must be in order. I do nothing unless directed by God. I teach nothing unless I agonize over it for months even years. Reading from a commentary is not being directed by God, that's being directed by what some man thinks. Seek God to show you. Seek to hear what God has to say. This is why the scripture speaks about meditation. Meditation is an act where you are allowing God to reveal, and He will.

 

[BarlyGurl]

There is a very simple answer for unbelief... sadly the simple solution has been kicked into the corner as archaic and unnecessary.