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ember,
I don't have time to respond point by point, but this is my general summation of our conversation thus far. You don't like certain types of prophecies, e.g. over individuals, or given in response to individuals who wanted to get a prophecy, or whatever. You don't have any scripture for certain prophetic practices you don't like, but you think it is obvious that they are 'fortune telling.'
We could dismiss Agabus prophesying about Paul being bound as 'fortune telling' or Samuel prophesying over Saul as 'fortune telling.' But wouldn't that be disrespectful to God?
I point out examples from the Bible the contradict your unfounded concern. You accuse me of making doctrines of exceptions rather than the rule.
I think you have seen some things in church that you did not like. I also wonder if you went to one of those 'signs and wonders' churches where people shake and say 'let me lay hands on you' and the other person feels goose bumps, and they think that is the way you are supposed to use the laying on of hands.
I am not a fan of a prophecy line. I was raised Pentecostal where people might go up for an altar call, and the pastor or pastors and other people might pray for them. Prophecy isn't required. If one happens, that's a possibility. I'm not saying that's the proper order either, but I do believe gifts can operate that way. All this usually happens while the music is playing. Sometimes, prophecies like this are spoken out for all to hear, which I think is a better way to do it. If it's something personal not for everyone, IMO, they could do it after if we are actually having a meeting for mutual edification of the church.
I don't have a problem with praying for an individual during a meeting or people giving prophecies to an individual or to the group in a meeting, either, as long as it is the genuine gift.
What I see is that you are condemning things broadly, thought I can find several examples of those things in the Bible. You are convinced that these things are wrong, even though the Bible presents many positive examples of those. When I point those out, you call those 'exceptions' though you don't have any scripture to support your 'rule' to which you think these things are exceptions.
If you disagree with what I said, show me from the Bible where I am wrong.
If you just don't like certain types of prophecies that are in line with the word that come from the Spirit because you have a problem with personal prophecy, then you could easily disobey, "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings.' And 'covet to prophesy.'
As far as seeking for signs go, those who asked for signs who did so in unbelief were sometimes reprimanded or faced some consequences. An angel appeared to Zacharias and he was struck dumb when he asked for a sign even though an angel appeared to him. An evil and adulterous generation asked Jesus for a sign. But these are a specific category of signs-- show me a sign that this other thing is true and from God. Both sets of sign-seekers were likely wanting a short-term prophecy that could be fulfilled as a sign of a long-term prophecy. That's a little different from wanting to see healings, miracles for the sake of spreading the message of Christ like the apostles asked for in Acts 4.
I don't have time to respond point by point, but this is my general summation of our conversation thus far. You don't like certain types of prophecies, e.g. over individuals, or given in response to individuals who wanted to get a prophecy, or whatever. You don't have any scripture for certain prophetic practices you don't like, but you think it is obvious that they are 'fortune telling.'
We could dismiss Agabus prophesying about Paul being bound as 'fortune telling' or Samuel prophesying over Saul as 'fortune telling.' But wouldn't that be disrespectful to God?
I point out examples from the Bible the contradict your unfounded concern. You accuse me of making doctrines of exceptions rather than the rule.
I think you have seen some things in church that you did not like. I also wonder if you went to one of those 'signs and wonders' churches where people shake and say 'let me lay hands on you' and the other person feels goose bumps, and they think that is the way you are supposed to use the laying on of hands.
I am not a fan of a prophecy line. I was raised Pentecostal where people might go up for an altar call, and the pastor or pastors and other people might pray for them. Prophecy isn't required. If one happens, that's a possibility. I'm not saying that's the proper order either, but I do believe gifts can operate that way. All this usually happens while the music is playing. Sometimes, prophecies like this are spoken out for all to hear, which I think is a better way to do it. If it's something personal not for everyone, IMO, they could do it after if we are actually having a meeting for mutual edification of the church.
I don't have a problem with praying for an individual during a meeting or people giving prophecies to an individual or to the group in a meeting, either, as long as it is the genuine gift.
What I see is that you are condemning things broadly, thought I can find several examples of those things in the Bible. You are convinced that these things are wrong, even though the Bible presents many positive examples of those. When I point those out, you call those 'exceptions' though you don't have any scripture to support your 'rule' to which you think these things are exceptions.
If you disagree with what I said, show me from the Bible where I am wrong.
If you just don't like certain types of prophecies that are in line with the word that come from the Spirit because you have a problem with personal prophecy, then you could easily disobey, "Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings.' And 'covet to prophesy.'
As far as seeking for signs go, those who asked for signs who did so in unbelief were sometimes reprimanded or faced some consequences. An angel appeared to Zacharias and he was struck dumb when he asked for a sign even though an angel appeared to him. An evil and adulterous generation asked Jesus for a sign. But these are a specific category of signs-- show me a sign that this other thing is true and from God. Both sets of sign-seekers were likely wanting a short-term prophecy that could be fulfilled as a sign of a long-term prophecy. That's a little different from wanting to see healings, miracles for the sake of spreading the message of Christ like the apostles asked for in Acts 4.
I had spent over 10 years in a charismatic Church, which had the prophesying in tongues, interpretations, discerning of spirits, word of knowledge, Prophets Conference where these 'cream of the crop' prophets came and would give individuals a word of prophecy for their lives, etc., etc., but I still ask today, "Who is a true prophet of God, whose prophetic words always come true?" Silence reigns on that question, because silence can't be tested...but an individual with a name, can.
E
You seem to have got out of my post what you looked for because my post does not say what you are saying
Please let me refer you to the end of my post and save us some time:
you are also changing some things you said in your last post to line up more with what I wrote, so what's the point?
And you have no need of me or others like me, so I will go back to the op and not answer you again here...it's a waste of my time anyhow and there are several here who are just at good at discernment as am I. And that is not bragging because I base my discernment on the Bible...Read John chapter one...spend a year on it...you still will not really understand it.
This show me in the Bible where I am wrong has already been presented .... you just disagree
Please let me refer you to the end of my post and save us some time:
you are also changing some things you said in your last post to line up more with what I wrote, so what's the point?
And you have no need of me or others like me, so I will go back to the op and not answer you again here...it's a waste of my time anyhow and there are several here who are just at good at discernment as am I. And that is not bragging because I base my discernment on the Bible...Read John chapter one...spend a year on it...you still will not really understand it.
This show me in the Bible where I am wrong has already been presented .... you just disagree
E
and then you said this
now we have categories for signs folks...good to know, right? so apparently, even though we may have missed it, we can categorize a sign and then we can go ahead and amaze everyone with that sign as proof of God's stamp of OK
you know, the Israelites had years of signs and wonders...it didn't work for them and it does not work for us
this, is erroneous teaching...we don't ask for signs so people will believe...
please consult the NT for the pattern of how one becomes a believer ... you may have to study for it though because the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance the things we need to know at the moment, BUT He can't bring to REMEMBRANCE what you never knew...
no one has to listen to a word about deception or error....but it is in the Bible
thanks
now we have categories for signs folks...good to know, right? so apparently, even though we may have missed it, we can categorize a sign and then we can go ahead and amaze everyone with that sign as proof of God's stamp of OK
you know, the Israelites had years of signs and wonders...it didn't work for them and it does not work for us
this, is erroneous teaching...we don't ask for signs so people will believe...
please consult the NT for the pattern of how one becomes a believer ... you may have to study for it though because the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance the things we need to know at the moment, BUT He can't bring to REMEMBRANCE what you never knew...
no one has to listen to a word about deception or error....but it is in the Bible
thanks
E
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety. Proverbs 11:14
No one person has complete knowledge and everyone has a limited perspective on truth. Some people will only consult those who agree with them.
Signs should not direct a person in their course...it is error to believe a dream, prophecy or vision or some sort of sign is the sure foundation we are supposed to build our Christian lives on.
No one person has complete knowledge and everyone has a limited perspective on truth. Some people will only consult those who agree with them.
Signs should not direct a person in their course...it is error to believe a dream, prophecy or vision or some sort of sign is the sure foundation we are supposed to build our Christian lives on.
we should not forget, or ignore:
the Liar & his children also performs signs.
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
(Matthew 24:24)
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
(Revelation 13:11-14)
(Matthew 24:24)
Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
(Revelation 13:11-14)
the Liar & his children also performs signs.
E
anyway, back to the op
Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. .
Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude were written to combat false teaching
Just because something sounds good, does not mean it is good The Bible says that the devil comes as an angel of light and doe false teachers and prophets. (II Corinthians 11;14)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. ... I John 4 1-6
Do we overcome the false as the scripture above suggests or do we just accept what 'feels' good?
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24
and pay attention to this one:
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, II Timothy 4:3
It is not true that I am painting with a broad brush and dislike certain things because they are not my perference.
I accept that God is Spirit and He has given gifts to men (mankind) but I would be terribly neglectful to just assume something is God or good when the Bible warns us from the garden on, that people are susceptible to deception and are just plain disobedient
Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. .
Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude were written to combat false teaching
Just because something sounds good, does not mean it is good The Bible says that the devil comes as an angel of light and doe false teachers and prophets. (II Corinthians 11;14)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. ... I John 4 1-6
Do we overcome the false as the scripture above suggests or do we just accept what 'feels' good?
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:24
and pay attention to this one:
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, II Timothy 4:3
It is not true that I am painting with a broad brush and dislike certain things because they are not my perference.
I accept that God is Spirit and He has given gifts to men (mankind) but I would be terribly neglectful to just assume something is God or good when the Bible warns us from the garden on, that people are susceptible to deception and are just plain disobedient
E
folks, IMO, the following post is as close to prophecy as I have seen in this thread...it bears careful reading
posthuman;2280249]there is no strength but in the Lord, no comfort that lasts without Him, and no encouragement that isn't deceptive apart from Him.
but with Him is all power! and all comfort!
if an unbeliever comes in and sees us all puffed up, jutting out our chins, refusing each others counsel and 'devouring one another' - will he say "God is really among you" ?
but He said, all men will know we are His disciples because of the love we have for each other
maybe the prophesy spoken here in the BDF more than any other is that we need to un-puff ourselves, and keep our focus on Christ instead of our own vanity. that our fight is with lies and false spirits, not each other.
posthuman;2280249]there is no strength but in the Lord, no comfort that lasts without Him, and no encouragement that isn't deceptive apart from Him.
but with Him is all power! and all comfort!
One thing God has spoken,
two things I have heard:
two things I have heard:
“Power belongs to you, God,
and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”;
and, “You reward everyone according to what they have done.”
(Psalm 62:11-12)
But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is really among you.”
(1 Corinthians 14:24-25)
the salvation of God isn't a terror, but a comfort - because He does reward everyone according to what they do, and if we acknowledge the Son & look to Him for mercy, He rewards us by setting aside all our unrighteousness! and if we forgive others, He is faithful to forgive us, but if we will not, will He? and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”;
and, “You reward everyone according to what they have done.”
(Psalm 62:11-12)
But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is really among you.”
(1 Corinthians 14:24-25)
if an unbeliever comes in and sees us all puffed up, jutting out our chins, refusing each others counsel and 'devouring one another' - will he say "God is really among you" ?
but He said, all men will know we are His disciples because of the love we have for each other
maybe the prophesy spoken here in the BDF more than any other is that we need to un-puff ourselves, and keep our focus on Christ instead of our own vanity. that our fight is with lies and false spirits, not each other.
also here:
so no one is a true prophet of God simply because they say so.
& so no one is a true prophet of God simply because they perform signs, or because they have visions or dreams, even if the signs are true, the visions are real, or they are able to predict things.
it stands to reason then that anyone who prophesies or claims to be a prophet, we must test them, and if they do not have the power they boast of, or even if they do, but they preach a different gospel (which is really no gospel at all), they are false, and we must not listen to them.
yes?
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere.
(Deuteronomy 13:1-4)
(Deuteronomy 13:1-4)
so no one is a true prophet of God simply because they say so.
& so no one is a true prophet of God simply because they perform signs, or because they have visions or dreams, even if the signs are true, the visions are real, or they are able to predict things.
it stands to reason then that anyone who prophesies or claims to be a prophet, we must test them, and if they do not have the power they boast of, or even if they do, but they preach a different gospel (which is really no gospel at all), they are false, and we must not listen to them.
yes?
E
yes I agree
19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;22abstain from every form of evil.
That 'but' is not an all clear go ahead and it's all good. That 'but' is a stop sign if you pay attention to the words that come after it.
19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;22abstain from every form of evil.
That 'but' is not an all clear go ahead and it's all good. That 'but' is a stop sign if you pay attention to the words that come after it.
There's so much being said about what a prophet is supposed to do. What I like to know is where the information is coming from.
It would be easier to say what a prophet didn't do.
Other than speak in tongues, all the other gifts were there in the OT. They gave words of wisdom, performed miracles, healed people, preached, taught, warned of impending judgement, spoke with authority to kings & religious leaders, & the list goes on & on.
What's surprising is that Jesus had something to say about it..... about all ministries actually, & it has not been listed nor sought out. Note the scripture:
Luke 17:7-10 (NASB) [SUP]7 [/SUP]"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'? [SUP]8 [/SUP]"But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? [SUP]9 [/SUP]"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? [SUP]10 [/SUP]"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"
Genuine humility should be in the forefront of every ministry. These scriptures should be followed as well:
Romans 14:19 (KJV) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:12 (KJV) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:26 (KJV) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
[HR][/HR]1 Timothy 1:4 (KJV) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
[HR][/HR]Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [SUP]12[/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Since every believer has the down payment of the Holy Spirit, we should be at the ready for God to do in us as He pleases. Who knows what the church could do IF we all were led by the Holy Spirit as some claim to do & others say it ended with the Apostles. Either way you choose, many have powerless claims, while many others has an unbiblical excuse to never do it.
I think this old saying is needed: "we need to sweep around our own back door". If this isn't suitable, perhaps this OT scripture will fit instead:
2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV) If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Sometimes I think a lot of folks (me included) don't know where we really stand with God in these last days. If we did, maybe we would be busy sweeping around our own back door instead of everybody else's.
It would be easier to say what a prophet didn't do.
Other than speak in tongues, all the other gifts were there in the OT. They gave words of wisdom, performed miracles, healed people, preached, taught, warned of impending judgement, spoke with authority to kings & religious leaders, & the list goes on & on.
What's surprising is that Jesus had something to say about it..... about all ministries actually, & it has not been listed nor sought out. Note the scripture:
Luke 17:7-10 (NASB) [SUP]7 [/SUP]"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'? [SUP]8 [/SUP]"But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? [SUP]9 [/SUP]"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? [SUP]10 [/SUP]"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"
Genuine humility should be in the forefront of every ministry. These scriptures should be followed as well:
Romans 14:19 (KJV) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:12 (KJV) Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:26 (KJV) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
[HR][/HR]1 Timothy 1:4 (KJV) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
[HR][/HR]Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [SUP]12[/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Since every believer has the down payment of the Holy Spirit, we should be at the ready for God to do in us as He pleases. Who knows what the church could do IF we all were led by the Holy Spirit as some claim to do & others say it ended with the Apostles. Either way you choose, many have powerless claims, while many others has an unbiblical excuse to never do it.
I think this old saying is needed: "we need to sweep around our own back door". If this isn't suitable, perhaps this OT scripture will fit instead:
2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV) If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Sometimes I think a lot of folks (me included) don't know where we really stand with God in these last days. If we did, maybe we would be busy sweeping around our own back door instead of everybody else's.
to all prophets here,
please give us some details about the characteristic of those four angels that were mentioned in ``rev. 7:1 and rev. 7:2``
TS1998 Bible version
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
thank you very much :ty:
please give us some details about the characteristic of those four angels that were mentioned in ``rev. 7:1 and rev. 7:2``
TS1998 Bible version
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
thank you very much :ty:
Hi Presidente,
Thanks for hanging in there. I think authority in the church is another thing that is misunderstood. Those who want the authority without the submission will not be given it…but those who are given it know it is a role that they need to fulfil which is not up for argument.
The nature of authority in the church is service. It is true that all who are born again have some measure of authority because we have the Holy Spirit, but it is also true that because the majority misunderstand the nature of that authority they do not progress in it. This is why we need to recognize authority…the proper godly kind…(if you can find it) which sees the church as she is and is about the business of perfecting her according to ministerial service (see Ephesians 4:12).
Many institutional churches are overly pastor-centred, and many commonly held false doctrines are commonly held because of that pastoral bias…so that many many children of God are never encouraged to seek out what their own role is in the body, and false doctrines remain unchallenged. If there is anything prophetic/apostolic happening in the congregation in that event, you can be sure it will be immediately squashed by the false authority which has usurped and maintained its position there. For budding apostles/prophets most often it takes a view from the outside to see all this properly…usually on the end of a boot, as Jesus warned us.
So proper Godly authority is not about being everybody’s chum and agreeing with everything they say: it is more importantly about seeing what is wrong and setting about correcting it. Serving is not about appeasement since that would only further endanger the hearers: it is about telling it like it is and dealing with what we have got, not what we haven’t.
Paul’s apostleship is a great example of service in authority, having survived centuries of attack and subversion…but still we are served by Him today in a very real sense as we read the word of God through his ministry.
Thanks for hanging in there. I think authority in the church is another thing that is misunderstood. Those who want the authority without the submission will not be given it…but those who are given it know it is a role that they need to fulfil which is not up for argument.
The nature of authority in the church is service. It is true that all who are born again have some measure of authority because we have the Holy Spirit, but it is also true that because the majority misunderstand the nature of that authority they do not progress in it. This is why we need to recognize authority…the proper godly kind…(if you can find it) which sees the church as she is and is about the business of perfecting her according to ministerial service (see Ephesians 4:12).
Many institutional churches are overly pastor-centred, and many commonly held false doctrines are commonly held because of that pastoral bias…so that many many children of God are never encouraged to seek out what their own role is in the body, and false doctrines remain unchallenged. If there is anything prophetic/apostolic happening in the congregation in that event, you can be sure it will be immediately squashed by the false authority which has usurped and maintained its position there. For budding apostles/prophets most often it takes a view from the outside to see all this properly…usually on the end of a boot, as Jesus warned us.
So proper Godly authority is not about being everybody’s chum and agreeing with everything they say: it is more importantly about seeing what is wrong and setting about correcting it. Serving is not about appeasement since that would only further endanger the hearers: it is about telling it like it is and dealing with what we have got, not what we haven’t.
Paul’s apostleship is a great example of service in authority, having survived centuries of attack and subversion…but still we are served by Him today in a very real sense as we read the word of God through his ministry.
to all prophets here,
please give us some details about the characteristic of those four angels that were mentioned in ``rev. 7:1 and rev. 7:2``
TS1998 Bible version
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
thank you very much :ty:
please give us some details about the characteristic of those four angels that were mentioned in ``rev. 7:1 and rev. 7:2``
TS1998 Bible version
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
thank you very much :ty:
The text is clear they are holding back "destructive forces" called winds.
The English translation in verse 2 says,"They were given power to hurt the earth". The Greek word "hurt" means to be,"Unjust". Since the angels are not unjust there is something else at play. The angels are holding back those unjust forces who would harm the earth.
And I don't understand what Matt 7:21 has to do with Rev 7:1-2 and has a emoticon embarrassment?
Hi UKOK and Russell...I think UKOK is asking 2 separate questions and you have given the first part.
The second question regarding Matt 7:21 is what I was just writing about on another thread, interestingly....the one about Bible translations....that it is not those who APPEAR to be Godly, who ARE Godly necessarily....because Jesus says ye shall know them by their fruits...so that many of those who say Lord, Lord can be actually rebellious in terms of their actions, i.e. not doing the will of God.
The second question regarding Matt 7:21 is what I was just writing about on another thread, interestingly....the one about Bible translations....that it is not those who APPEAR to be Godly, who ARE Godly necessarily....because Jesus says ye shall know them by their fruits...so that many of those who say Lord, Lord can be actually rebellious in terms of their actions, i.e. not doing the will of God.
How so?
My views have stayed consistent throughout the thread.
I did not say I had no need of you. I don't think that's a biblical attitude toward fellow believers. I do wish you were a bit quicker to receive truth when shown you from the Bible. If your ideas don't match scripture, why not just change your own ideas and opinions instead of sticking to your guns? I really don't get that at all.
This seems to sum up your attitude on this topic,
As far as comprehension goes, that works if you say it out loud. But you might want to invest in some quotation marks if you are going to write that.
The Bible does not outright condemn asking for signs. The apostles asked Jesus what the signs of his coming would be. Look in Matthew 24. Jesus didn't condemn them for asking for signs. The apostles prayed for God to do signs and wonders in Acts 4.
In Isaiah, the Lord told Ahaz to ask for a sign. He refused, saying he did not want to put God to the test, but he was rebuffed and after that we read the famous passage, 'the Lord Himself shall give thee a sign.'
Right after Jesus fed the 5000, some Jews asked for a sign. He'd just fed the 5000, isn't that a sign? Yes, but there is also the Deuteronomy 18 sign for prophets, whether his prophecy comes to pass. An example can be found where Isaiah prophesies Hezekiah's death. Then Hezekiah prays, and Isaiah returns after the Lord hears his prayer and extends his life. So Hezekiah asks for a sign, some prediction that will come to pass that is evidence that something else is true-- in this case that Hezekiah would live and go into the house of the LORD. He asked for the shadow to move in the opposite direction.
Moses did miracles, but he also did one of these signs that proved that the LORD had sent him. He predicted that the ground would swallow up the rebels. Micaiah gave a sign. If Ahab lived through the battle and returned, then the LORD had not sent him. Ahab died.
Look at what Jesus said after saying a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. He said that not sign shall be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah (in Matthew's version of the account.) Notice this, as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights the Son of Man would also be in the heart of the earth. The resurrection was also the sign of Jesus' authority to cleanse the temple. The fulfillment of this prediction was the sign that Jesus had the authority to cleanse the temple.
So, yes, there are different kinds of signs.
And read the Gospels and the book of Acts. Philip did signs and wonders and the people paid close attention to what he said after they saw the miracles. Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas blinded, astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
You haven't shown any scripture at all that says that it is wrong to enquire of the LORD through a prophet. I can show lots of scripture that shows that it is okay. I can also show evidence of 'personal prophecies' directed at one person. Even in the New Testament, Agabus predicts Paul being bound, the Spirit speaks in Antioch a message about Paul and Barnabas, and I Corinthians 14 shows us that prophecy can make manifest the secrets of an individual believer's heart. This is the kind of stuff that happens in 'personal prophecies.' The Bible doesn't say when you go to church, you aren't allowed to line up. It doesn't say much about how to stand or sit. It doesn't say you can or cannot line up, sit in a circle, sit in rows, etc.
You don't have any scripture for your objection to prophecies being 'fortune telling.' In fact, an atheist could say the same thing about the prophecies in the Bible, about Samuel telling Saul that his father's donkeys had been found and that he would be prince over the LORD's people, or Agabus' predicted prophecy about Paul, or what the Spirit said about Barnabas and Saul, or many other prophecies in the Bible. Slapping the label 'fortune telling' on it isn't helpful. The question is whether or not it is Biblical and from the Spirit of God, not whether you can give something a negative label or mock it. Men can mock all kinds of things that are Biblical. It happens all the time.
You shouldn't be judging based on whether a prophecy looks like 'fortune telling' to you. You should be comparing it to the Bible. I don't see any scripture to support these objections of yours. How is the type of personal prophecy you object to different from what we see in scripture?
Also, this idea that each of us can hear God and we don't need to go after someone with a gift of prophecy sounds all nice and spiritual, but read I Corinthians 12. We are all parts of one body. So someone might get a prophecy for me and share it with me and I can be blessed by it. I might give a teaching and bless that person and others in the body. Then if I were sick, someone with a gift of healing could pray for me and that would be a help to me. And that person might need some money, and someone with a gift of giving could help that person. You could say, why can't we all just hear God for ourselves and condemn those who get prophecies through others for being immature. We could say those who receive prayer for healing are just immature. And those who go gather with the church and hear someone else teach, we could say they are immature and they should get out their understanding of the word by reading alone at home.
We could say that, but it would be unbiblical. It's wrong to condemn people for hearing others teach because it is Biblical for those who are gifted to teach to teach others in the church. And it's wrong to condemn people for receiving a prophecy through someone else because the Bible teaches those gifted to prophesy to prophesy. See Romans 12.
We can pray for our own healing, study the Bible, and ask God to speak to us, but God isn't building up a bunch of disconnected individuals who have no relationship or connection with each other. We are a body and we are to minister our gifts one to another.
My views have stayed consistent throughout the thread.
I did not say I had no need of you. I don't think that's a biblical attitude toward fellow believers. I do wish you were a bit quicker to receive truth when shown you from the Bible. If your ideas don't match scripture, why not just change your own ideas and opinions instead of sticking to your guns? I really don't get that at all.
This seems to sum up your attitude on this topic,
As far as comprehension goes, that works if you say it out loud. But you might want to invest in some quotation marks if you are going to write that.
The Bible does not outright condemn asking for signs. The apostles asked Jesus what the signs of his coming would be. Look in Matthew 24. Jesus didn't condemn them for asking for signs. The apostles prayed for God to do signs and wonders in Acts 4.
In Isaiah, the Lord told Ahaz to ask for a sign. He refused, saying he did not want to put God to the test, but he was rebuffed and after that we read the famous passage, 'the Lord Himself shall give thee a sign.'
Right after Jesus fed the 5000, some Jews asked for a sign. He'd just fed the 5000, isn't that a sign? Yes, but there is also the Deuteronomy 18 sign for prophets, whether his prophecy comes to pass. An example can be found where Isaiah prophesies Hezekiah's death. Then Hezekiah prays, and Isaiah returns after the Lord hears his prayer and extends his life. So Hezekiah asks for a sign, some prediction that will come to pass that is evidence that something else is true-- in this case that Hezekiah would live and go into the house of the LORD. He asked for the shadow to move in the opposite direction.
Moses did miracles, but he also did one of these signs that proved that the LORD had sent him. He predicted that the ground would swallow up the rebels. Micaiah gave a sign. If Ahab lived through the battle and returned, then the LORD had not sent him. Ahab died.
Look at what Jesus said after saying a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. He said that not sign shall be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah (in Matthew's version of the account.) Notice this, as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights the Son of Man would also be in the heart of the earth. The resurrection was also the sign of Jesus' authority to cleanse the temple. The fulfillment of this prediction was the sign that Jesus had the authority to cleanse the temple.
So, yes, there are different kinds of signs.
And read the Gospels and the book of Acts. Philip did signs and wonders and the people paid close attention to what he said after they saw the miracles. Sergius Paulus believed after he saw Elymas blinded, astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
You haven't shown any scripture at all that says that it is wrong to enquire of the LORD through a prophet. I can show lots of scripture that shows that it is okay. I can also show evidence of 'personal prophecies' directed at one person. Even in the New Testament, Agabus predicts Paul being bound, the Spirit speaks in Antioch a message about Paul and Barnabas, and I Corinthians 14 shows us that prophecy can make manifest the secrets of an individual believer's heart. This is the kind of stuff that happens in 'personal prophecies.' The Bible doesn't say when you go to church, you aren't allowed to line up. It doesn't say much about how to stand or sit. It doesn't say you can or cannot line up, sit in a circle, sit in rows, etc.
You don't have any scripture for your objection to prophecies being 'fortune telling.' In fact, an atheist could say the same thing about the prophecies in the Bible, about Samuel telling Saul that his father's donkeys had been found and that he would be prince over the LORD's people, or Agabus' predicted prophecy about Paul, or what the Spirit said about Barnabas and Saul, or many other prophecies in the Bible. Slapping the label 'fortune telling' on it isn't helpful. The question is whether or not it is Biblical and from the Spirit of God, not whether you can give something a negative label or mock it. Men can mock all kinds of things that are Biblical. It happens all the time.
You shouldn't be judging based on whether a prophecy looks like 'fortune telling' to you. You should be comparing it to the Bible. I don't see any scripture to support these objections of yours. How is the type of personal prophecy you object to different from what we see in scripture?
Also, this idea that each of us can hear God and we don't need to go after someone with a gift of prophecy sounds all nice and spiritual, but read I Corinthians 12. We are all parts of one body. So someone might get a prophecy for me and share it with me and I can be blessed by it. I might give a teaching and bless that person and others in the body. Then if I were sick, someone with a gift of healing could pray for me and that would be a help to me. And that person might need some money, and someone with a gift of giving could help that person. You could say, why can't we all just hear God for ourselves and condemn those who get prophecies through others for being immature. We could say those who receive prayer for healing are just immature. And those who go gather with the church and hear someone else teach, we could say they are immature and they should get out their understanding of the word by reading alone at home.
We could say that, but it would be unbiblical. It's wrong to condemn people for hearing others teach because it is Biblical for those who are gifted to teach to teach others in the church. And it's wrong to condemn people for receiving a prophecy through someone else because the Bible teaches those gifted to prophesy to prophesy. See Romans 12.
We can pray for our own healing, study the Bible, and ask God to speak to us, but God isn't building up a bunch of disconnected individuals who have no relationship or connection with each other. We are a body and we are to minister our gifts one to another.
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