How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Okay, let's get serious with this question. To answer the question we first need to see our link to Adam, the father of the human race:

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. (Rom chapter 5)

More later...

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Sin is not charged against anyone where there is no law. Here Paul is speaking of the moral law, the Ten Commandments. That law wasn't posted until Moses.

Yet Paul tells us that "in Adam" death came to all men, because all sinned in him.

Our sin "in Adam" cannot refer to transgression because we had not yet come out of Adam through procreation, i.e., we were not yet individuals. Only individuals can be charged of transgression, and only if the law is posted.

So how did we all sin in Adam?

Gr8grace · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Gods word. Did God write it for Himself or for man?

Laying down your life for your friends.............does this diminish integrity? or show your integrity?

A father paying off a Sons fine.......?

We need to understand that God changes policies for dealing with mankind, but His Character and nature never changes.

So very simple answer: Gods law was for mankind, not God. God has perfect integrity and character and can change policies without changing His Character and nature or integrity.

Dino246 · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

I suspect that you already know the answer you want to this question, given that you already knew the answer to your OP question. If I am correct in my suspicion, why are you asking? If you believe our collective understanding is lacking, please simply share your insights and save us the time and energy of reading pages of just-about-but-not-quite-exactly-right responses.

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Dino246 said:

1] I started the post, so I guess I can ask the questions. If no one wishes to participate that's their call.

2] I find that this format is the best way to learn & engage. Yes, I think I have answers to my questions, but that's up for debate.

3] I, like you, am not infallible. So I need feedback.

BarlyGurl · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

The MAN form of Christ kept the law perfectly, High priest after the order of Mechalzadek to perform a ritual sacrifice, The LAMB OF GOD who offered himself up for the sins of mankind, the final sacrifice.

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Look at Acts 17:26 "And he (God) made from one (Adam) every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth..."

So all of us share Adam's life because he is the source of our humanity. Adam is our corporate head. Even Eve came from Adam (Gen 2:21-23). And that's why Paul said, "For man did not come from woman" (1 Cor 11:8)

So all of us share Adam's life, i.e, his fallen life after the fall.

Now, what happened at the fall of Adam? His agape love took a u-turn back to himself. The Bible calls this iniquity, but in general the Bible uses the word "sin".

Because we all share Adam's life after the fall, we share in his iniquity. That is, we share his fallen life indwelt with self-love. Self-love is nothing more than a u-turn agape. Agape, according to Paul, is not self-seeking. It lives for others only. A good text to describe agape is found in 1 Cor 10:24

"Let no man seek his own (wealth is implied), but every man another's wealth."

Self-love seeks it's own. It is self-centered. This self-centered love is sin (iniquity).

So we sinned in Adam because we all share his bent-to-self (i.e, his self-love).

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Something else to think about:

The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

My point? We stand condemned, not because we are guilty of Adam's transgression (i.e, breaking a known law or command), but because all of us share his humanity indwelt with iniquity (i.e., our bent-to-self). This is our root problem. All of our sinning (transgression of the law) is the result of our self-love.

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Again, remember we share one humanity, the fallen life of Adam. We are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. The problem is Adam's life is fallen and unfit for heaven. Therefore it must die.

Since we all share his life we too must die.....

This is our predicament. So Christ came to redeem us from out situation in Adam. Hence the Bible refers to Him as "the last Adam" (i.e, the 2nd Adam).

How did He do it?

Gal 4:4 "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons."

BTW, infants are not born under the law. Only when one see himself a sinner is he placed under law. Yet infants die, but not because of personal sins, but rather because they share in Adam's life. The good news Christ has reversed our situation in Adam, by becoming the 2nd Adam, and therefore all infants who die before they reach the age of accountability are safe in Christ Jesus, i.e., they will be in heaven.

posthuman · Oct 7, 2015

buddy, Robert did say Christ did not die. and Robert, i don't know how you can stand by this claim -

Roberth said:

right then explain why the Bible in an hundred places says that Jesus died, if He did not?

for one example, which tidily also show that His death was for our sins and His resurrection was for our justification - "our" being a reference to those who believe God raised Him from the dead - not being "all men":

This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
(Romans 4:22-25)

He was delivered over to death for our sins
and was raised to life for our justification.

Proverbs_Four · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Correction: "So Christ came to redeem us from our situation in Adam"

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

posthuman said:

Christ as God cannot die....

But Christ as the son of man (mortal) could and did die....

1 [FONT=helvetica, arial]Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- [/FONT]
2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans chapter 1)

Gr8grace · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

No hes not. Myself and along with others on this thread have read your posts to the same conclusion. If it is not what you are saying.................you need to work on your communication skills.

The people who are refuting you are pretty clear, you are not.

Disclaimer: you are clear to the ones who study His word. We know what your agenda is, and when its called out........one just screams " misrepresentation!" You ain't fooling the ones that know Grace.

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

What in the world are you talking about?

Let's get back to the context....So please stop trying to derail the subject....Thanks

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

How did He redeem the fallen human race from under law (the curse)? By being born of a woman and being born under the law. So Christ, as God, assumed our corporate humanity (i.e., our corporate life) from the womb of Mary. In so doing He clothed His Deity with our humanity that needed redeeming.

For thirty something years He lived a perfect life of obedience in our humanity. And on the cross, "Our old life (from Adam) died".

Hence, "in Christ" we were made obedient and "in Christ" we died the death that the law requires.

Gr8grace · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Ok, I may have jumped the Gun.....sorry.

I have read through most of the thread. And have not gotten a answer from you how God maintained His integrity for dying for sinners.

You believe God maintained His integrity for dying for sinners right?

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Roberth said:

Summary:

1] In Christ our old life from Adam was made obedient to God's law.

2] In Christ our old life from Adam, indwelt with our bent (i.e, the sin nature), died on the cross. This answered the justice of God's law.

This legally qualified Christ to be our righteousness and deliver us from under law to under grace.

Roberth · Oct 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

God has solved all our problems "in Christ Jesus". He did this work of redemption with absolute integrity. We are complete in Christ.

How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

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