The Law Debacle Resolved
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The first thing Jesus confronted people with was the heredity of sin, and it is because we have ignored this in our presentation of the gospel that the message of the gospel has lost its sting and its explosive power. A man cannot redeem himself-redemption is the work of God, and is absolutely finished and complete. And its application to individual action or response to it. A distinction must always be made between the revealed truth of redemption and the actual conscious experience of Salvation in a persons life. i copied the words of oswald chambers from daily devotional.
A problem of generations
We live in a world of very immature people, who play games, and can pretend a great deal because of wealth and security.
In the past life was much more brutal and hard, many people you knew died before your eyes, and your emotions were torn to shreds. Immorality led to sexually transmitted diseases which destroyed peoples lives and their partners over 20+ years driving them nuts.
We now live in a world of ideas and ease, where words are cheap and being overly critical is simple. So calling people out as hypocrites is simple, railing against any standard is the norm rather than standing for anything, the answer is now to compromise, ignore any form of righteousness and just emphasis emotional elation and acceptance.
But the very heart of Jesus is lost, purity, righteousness, respect, love, honour, responsibility, humbleness.
Those who hold these principles up as worthy are called legalists. Do you hear the enemy speaking and laughing at his victory over righteousness?
Without righteousness there is no salvation, or failure, or sin. Look around you, the decay and lost lives is not because they are living the right way. If you have no standards you have no faith.
We live in a world of very immature people, who play games, and can pretend a great deal because of wealth and security.
In the past life was much more brutal and hard, many people you knew died before your eyes, and your emotions were torn to shreds. Immorality led to sexually transmitted diseases which destroyed peoples lives and their partners over 20+ years driving them nuts.
We now live in a world of ideas and ease, where words are cheap and being overly critical is simple. So calling people out as hypocrites is simple, railing against any standard is the norm rather than standing for anything, the answer is now to compromise, ignore any form of righteousness and just emphasis emotional elation and acceptance.
But the very heart of Jesus is lost, purity, righteousness, respect, love, honour, responsibility, humbleness.
Those who hold these principles up as worthy are called legalists. Do you hear the enemy speaking and laughing at his victory over righteousness?
Without righteousness there is no salvation, or failure, or sin. Look around you, the decay and lost lives is not because they are living the right way. If you have no standards you have no faith.
I have to confess Don I do not study enough. My problem is waiting until I feel myself mature enough to make a stand on a particular theme or idea.
I have not read much about Wesley. But then following oswald chambers etc reference I came across this work
A Plain Account of Christian Perfection by Charles Wesley
This is of interest, simply because so much time and effort has been put into understanding or discussing what is perfection. Now I am sure I will not agree with everything, but Wesley had such an impact, it is worth asking the question, what was his take on these issues, because in argument terms the theological view has not moved on, being based on scripture, though maybe our social, biological etc understanding has which may sway our assumptions etc.
So thankyou for the reference, I have some reading to do.
I have not read much about Wesley. But then following oswald chambers etc reference I came across this work
A Plain Account of Christian Perfection by Charles Wesley
This is of interest, simply because so much time and effort has been put into understanding or discussing what is perfection. Now I am sure I will not agree with everything, but Wesley had such an impact, it is worth asking the question, what was his take on these issues, because in argument terms the theological view has not moved on, being based on scripture, though maybe our social, biological etc understanding has which may sway our assumptions etc.
So thankyou for the reference, I have some reading to do.
please try to remember this verses my brothers and sisters
Proverbs: 1. 22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26. I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
as they say "don't just smile, laugh . ... " :rofl:
Job: 5. 17. Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
18. For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.
19. He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
20. In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword.
21. Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh.
22. At destruction and famine thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts of the earth.
23. For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee.
24. And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin.
25. Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
26. Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.
27. Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
Proverbs: 1. 22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26. I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
as they say "don't just smile, laugh . ... " :rofl: Job: 5. 17. Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
18. For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.
19. He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
20. In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword.
21. Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh.
22. At destruction and famine thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts of the earth.
23. For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee.
24. And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin.
25. Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
26. Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.
27. Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
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Also some words in that verses
Has a efferent potential
For some are written in "letters" meaning we mustn't do this
Physically
And some are written by means of spiritual knowledge
which will guide us in searching
The truth
Godblees us all my brothers and my sisters
And my brethrens :smoke: and my fellows :happy:
Also to non believers and believers
:ty:
Has a efferent potential
For some are written in "letters" meaning we mustn't do this
Physically
And some are written by means of spiritual knowledge
which will guide us in searching
The truth
Godblees us all my brothers and my sisters
And my brethrens :smoke: and my fellows :happy:
Also to non believers and believers
:ty:
B
Ok, so again. You are not reading what is stated.
The original post that lead to this discussion, KohenMatt stated to just do what Jesus taught and did.
You reply with something completely out and off of topic on something the Jesus never even mentions or talks about, not at all, not one bit. Again only time Jesus and circumcission are talked about at the same time is at His birth.
So again, the discussion of circumcission is irrelevant based off of what KohenMatt stated.
If someone is going to follow what Jesus taught and did, that's fine and makes sense and I totally agree with it.
Paul is not Jesus, nor is he greater than Jesus.
Yes Paul has great things to stay, and a lot to learn from, but he is still not Jesus and he's not greater than Jesus.
Again, when Paul teaches on circumcission, he's not teaching against it. He's teaching against using it as a was to justify oneself in either salvation or righteousness, which I agree with.
So no Paul was no speaking against God's word, he was teaching against actual legalism, which you do not understand what that is. You think if someone follows Torah, just to follow Torah is legalism. To place that judgement on someone is legalism.
Just for clarification on that, legalistic circumcission would someone saying you have to do it to be saved or righteous. Paul taught against that.
Circumcission itself is not legalistic, because if it is then your basically saying anything spoken from Torah is legalistic, which makes some of the teachings of Jesus legalistic, which makes some of Paul's ideas legalistic, which basically in a short run makes everything a big jumbled mess.
KohenMatt simply just stated, just do what Jesus did, and teach what Jesus taught.
So again, why bring up circumcission?
I apologize I'm being redundant, but your topic of circumcission is redundant.
We've all already stated we do not believe circumcission is a way of salvation or how one becomes righteous.
What are you trying to get us to say? That circumcission is wrong?
Because if you are, then well I'm not going to say it's wrong.
So again and final please leave the topic alone, unless it is actually brought up and makes sense when being brought up.
The original post that lead to this discussion, KohenMatt stated to just do what Jesus taught and did.
You reply with something completely out and off of topic on something the Jesus never even mentions or talks about, not at all, not one bit. Again only time Jesus and circumcission are talked about at the same time is at His birth.
So again, the discussion of circumcission is irrelevant based off of what KohenMatt stated.
If someone is going to follow what Jesus taught and did, that's fine and makes sense and I totally agree with it.
Paul is not Jesus, nor is he greater than Jesus.
Yes Paul has great things to stay, and a lot to learn from, but he is still not Jesus and he's not greater than Jesus.
Again, when Paul teaches on circumcission, he's not teaching against it. He's teaching against using it as a was to justify oneself in either salvation or righteousness, which I agree with.
So no Paul was no speaking against God's word, he was teaching against actual legalism, which you do not understand what that is. You think if someone follows Torah, just to follow Torah is legalism. To place that judgement on someone is legalism.
Just for clarification on that, legalistic circumcission would someone saying you have to do it to be saved or righteous. Paul taught against that.
Circumcission itself is not legalistic, because if it is then your basically saying anything spoken from Torah is legalistic, which makes some of the teachings of Jesus legalistic, which makes some of Paul's ideas legalistic, which basically in a short run makes everything a big jumbled mess.
KohenMatt simply just stated, just do what Jesus did, and teach what Jesus taught.
So again, why bring up circumcission?
I apologize I'm being redundant, but your topic of circumcission is redundant.
We've all already stated we do not believe circumcission is a way of salvation or how one becomes righteous.
What are you trying to get us to say? That circumcission is wrong?
Because if you are, then well I'm not going to say it's wrong.
So again and final please leave the topic alone, unless it is actually brought up and makes sense when being brought up.
B
I believe them to be equal, and what they did was equally as important, because they were both doing God's will and what God had told them to do. We'll let opinions be opinions.
Still who is greater than who as far as Moses and Paul, is still irrelevant to KohenMatt's statement of us "doing what Jesus did and teaching what Jesus taught."
Still who is greater than who as far as Moses and Paul, is still irrelevant to KohenMatt's statement of us "doing what Jesus did and teaching what Jesus taught."
B
That's not saying Paul is greater than Moses.
That would be an opinion.
And if you really want to go into technicalities.
King David was concidered a man after God's own heart, so if you want to go into technicalities, Paul was never called that making King David greater than Paul (this would be based off of the way you're looking at things btw).
Along with that, John was concidered Jesus' closest disciple, so again would put him above Paul.
So again, opinions will be opinions, unless you're going based off of technicalities.
That would be an opinion.
And if you really want to go into technicalities.
King David was concidered a man after God's own heart, so if you want to go into technicalities, Paul was never called that making King David greater than Paul (this would be based off of the way you're looking at things btw).
Along with that, John was concidered Jesus' closest disciple, so again would put him above Paul.
So again, opinions will be opinions, unless you're going based off of technicalities.
Z
Have you heard the story of the Potter and the clay? It seems like many don't want to be clay and tell the Potter how to create. Clay is soft, obedient, open to the Potter. I see to many telling God they will do it their way. Anyone who opposes them is called a legalist. God does deal with rebellion as we see in Lucifer's fall. I know we can't be perfect, but please show me where God says to just give up and start justifying my sins in outright rebellion? That's the way I see these threads. Rebels trying to convince others to rebel and stop obeying God. Obeying is a work, or law or whatever they want to call it so they can justify to themselves to not follow. Disobedience is a work, law, or whatever you call it and will be dealt with
Years ago as a young boy I saw something in Jesus and the apostles, emotional reality that bobbed around, that was alive, but I did not understand, I just knew I wanted that.
As a student, after witnessing and preaching for years, I wanted to know what emphasis I should grow in. The answer was love, not arguments or theology or education.
Many years later that one word is everything, "God is love". Wesley felt love was actually perfection, and made us perfect, not just imputing righteousness to us, but bringing purity and perfection to our hearts to radiate out to others.
Now I know to many such words sound like mushy rubbish, women having cakes and tea. But that is because love is so shut down you do not see the brutal, blood soaked cross, the torture inflicted by people so soaked in evil and sin, they do not see the insanity of butchering the innocent and slaughtering the defenceless because they can, and yet these people say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
One woman on this forum tried to say I could not speak like this to IS as they killed me. They are wrong, because IS are psychopaths who will not listen to argument and are truly evil and insane, and there is no answer to this insanity other than sacrificial love.
But for this christian to say this to me as if it was a challenge shows how superficial love is to them. And yes I would die gladly for my Lord.
No greater thing can I aspire to than be counted worthy to spread the love Jesus placed in me to others, whether I live or die. So far has the christian message been lost that this ethic has been lost, or never grasped, yet these people claim to speak with authority and no shame.
As a student, after witnessing and preaching for years, I wanted to know what emphasis I should grow in. The answer was love, not arguments or theology or education.
Many years later that one word is everything, "God is love". Wesley felt love was actually perfection, and made us perfect, not just imputing righteousness to us, but bringing purity and perfection to our hearts to radiate out to others.
Now I know to many such words sound like mushy rubbish, women having cakes and tea. But that is because love is so shut down you do not see the brutal, blood soaked cross, the torture inflicted by people so soaked in evil and sin, they do not see the insanity of butchering the innocent and slaughtering the defenceless because they can, and yet these people say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
One woman on this forum tried to say I could not speak like this to IS as they killed me. They are wrong, because IS are psychopaths who will not listen to argument and are truly evil and insane, and there is no answer to this insanity other than sacrificial love.
But for this christian to say this to me as if it was a challenge shows how superficial love is to them. And yes I would die gladly for my Lord.
No greater thing can I aspire to than be counted worthy to spread the love Jesus placed in me to others, whether I live or die. So far has the christian message been lost that this ethic has been lost, or never grasped, yet these people claim to speak with authority and no shame.
Obedience is a gift.
Trying to obey something that you think is what God wants you to obey is rebellion. Its called leaning on your own understanding.
Theres a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death. That is the thinking that you can obey Gods Law by your own understanding, will and strength.
The only thing I would convince you of is coming to Christ. He will do the rest. Your works of the law are not obedience. As you will find out after you come to Him.
Trying to obey something that you think is what God wants you to obey is rebellion. Its called leaning on your own understanding.
Theres a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death. That is the thinking that you can obey Gods Law by your own understanding, will and strength.
The only thing I would convince you of is coming to Christ. He will do the rest. Your works of the law are not obedience. As you will find out after you come to Him.
Grace completes teh law, it is the addition according to the Example and teaching of Jesus Christ, which takes away the curse of the law.
If you ae saying by grace we arepermitted to be licencious sinning at will, for what is sin but breaking the law of god, then you may be walking in very dangerous and dark territory, for according to Paul we are converted from being chldren of disobedience to being children of obediennce.
Look and see how Jesus walked, and hear His teaching on the manner we should obey. He has shone great light on the truth of all of the Word, for He is the Word.
If you ae saying by grace we arepermitted to be licencious sinning at will, for what is sin but breaking the law of god, then you may be walking in very dangerous and dark territory, for according to Paul we are converted from being chldren of disobedience to being children of obediennce.
Look and see how Jesus walked, and hear His teaching on the manner we should obey. He has shone great light on the truth of all of the Word, for He is the Word.
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