I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

[breno785au]

Catholic heresy thread hasn't got enough pages for ya Blain?

 

[blondieindahouse]

That's an honest reporting. I was baptized as an infant. I was raised in the church. I can never recall a time when I didn't love Jesus. I am also very clear about my inability to manage my own sin and my desperate need for a Savior, namely, Jesus. (This is evident through a variety of postings on the site).

I know that my self-reporting doesn't fit the expected storyline of your typical evangelical. I didn't follow the "Four spiritual laws." I don't have a "prodigal" story. There's no "conversion" where I leave the RCC and dutifully embrace the tenets of evangelicalism.

Had I arrived on this site and reported that I'd murdered 70 but repented, or that I was a drug-dealing prostitute terrorist who'd repented, everyone would gladly accept that report.

I do find it interesting that people think God is somehow incapable of saving children....that the work of Christ on the Cross hinges on our ability to comprehend it in a way that makes others feel comfortable.

I could easily have "fudged" the story of my spiritual journey and presented it in a way that made it seem more acceptable to you and others here. Of course, I'd have been compromising my ethics in the meantime. So, I opt to maintain my ethics, report my salvation story, be kind and transparent regarding theological matters, and take the flack that I know is inevitable.

And by "flack" I mean the whole, "We know you're not really a Christian," schtick. To my knowledge, the Holy Spirit is still the third member of the Godhead...there has been no vacancy left open for a person on this site to fill. As uncomfortable as it makes people, the ultimate truth is that no person gets to say whether another person is saved or not. It's above our pay grade. You can GUESS, you can SUPPOSE, you can line up a bunch of bible verses and attempt to force your particular view, but ultimately, salvation is in the hands of God. You and I don't get to say who is saved and who is not.

So, you can accept my self-reporting, the revelation of myself on the boards, my attempts to live like Jesus, or not. Your acceptance or rejection has no real bearing on my actual salvation. It simply places a roadblock between us and makes it difficult for us to be unified as fellow-believers.

Respectfully:
I asked you if it agrees with what the bible says? Just give me a succinct answer! Is that possible with you or do you always need to answer in your self-aggrandizing, bloviated manner in which you respond to everyone! Im quite tired of your vain babblings. You impress noone but yourself.
Just answer the question!! YES OR NO!

Is this how we are saved ( REBORN of the spirit)according to the BIBLE?

2 Timothy 2:16 “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”

 

[Gr8grace]

Ha-Ha..... is this your way of admtting you cant name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it? {rolling eyes}


Here, I'll post it again for ya......



I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it. If you folks are correct then there must have been 'true Christians' in each century who believed and practiced as you do. This challenge leaves us with 3 possibilities: (1) There were Christians who believed and practiced as you do (Name 3 per century) (2) Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. (3) Or Christ lied. Which is it? None of us thinks Christ lied now right? We Catholics can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc. Now you and other folks on this forum that challengr the Catholic faith should be able to find 3 people who believed as they did, don't you think?


Once again I repeat, if you cannot identify these people then I submit they didn't exist. There is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. The only people for whom there is no historical record is this remnant of true Christians who believed and practiced like those of you doing the challenging. True Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. I have yet to hear anyone other than a Catholics fully address the questions above.


Take your time Bub


Pax Christi

Can we use the names of Christians verifiably KILLED by the catholic institution?

 

[blondieindahouse]

Sister, this is my problem here. I thank you for the clear precise way you present your testimony! I too was raised in the church and have loved our Lord since I was a small child. I know the Lord and He knows me! He always has my entire life.(this post is for poetmary! The wolves are just itching because of this post)

I thought you were leaving?

 

[zzz98]

Can we use the names of Christians verifiably KILLED by the catholic institution?

Awww come on! I haven't killed anyone lately(tongue firmly in cheek)

 

[Kefa54]

OK..I say I am non denominational,another Baptist,another Methodist, another Luther, another Catholic, another Protestant, another Pentecostal, another.....

None of these are religions. They are just man made denominations. Denominations we choose to worship at. I choose to worship at a non denominational body of believers in the larger body of Jesus Christ. Known as the local body of believers.

New International Version
John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. All I see on that vine is believers.

I don't see a Baptist branch, non denominational branch, Catholic branch etc.

Kefa

 

[Gr8grace]

Awww come on! I haven't killed anyone lately(tongue firmly in cheek)

Cause one would be Pedro. I would even vote for Pedro!

 

[PoetMary]

Psalm 139:13 says this: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb

Luke 1:41 says this: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit

God has a vested interested in children from the moment of conception. Additionally. John the Baptist recognized his Savior from the womb. I believe that God can and does speak to children. He is not limited by our understanding.

Romans 10:9 says this: because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:3 says this: Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Lord.

In multiple places on the boards and within the rooms I have proclaimed that Jesus is Lord and that I have need of him as my Savior. If you want to contradict 1 Corinthians and pretend that I somehow have the power to say that "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit, feel free to do so.

 

[Angela53510]

I'm not quite sure why you would presume that I haven't read the bible. You claim that I NEVER quote the bible and that I don't hold it in high regard. Both of these ideas are based on presumption. Additionally, when you say these things as if they are fact, you are speaking falsehoods about me. I've quoted several scriptures on various boards. Since you don't know me, personally, and are not involved with my spiritual life it is pretty uppity of you to assume to know my feelings about the bible.

And it is this exact attitude that I'm addressing.

I self-report (that I've studied scripture) and you're not sure that my self-reporting is accurate. Instead of talking to me like I'm a human being and a possible sister in Christ, you level false accusations that you cannot substantiate.

You could have just asked me what I've studied, or how I've studied. Or "how do you reconcile this aspect of scripture with what the RCC says here." Or "When did you first begin to read the bible?" Or "What is your favorite passage of scripture?" Or "What do you think of gender-neutral renderings of scripture and the implications this has on a Christological view of various OT passages."

There were a wide variety of approaches available to you. You chose to claim that I never quote the bible (clearly false as evidenced by several boards as well as live chats) and that I don't hold it in high regard (a biased opinion that you cannot substantiate).

In other words, you didn't address a topic. You went after me personally.

Well, let's see, I've been following your posts for weeks. They all consist of some kind of intellectual or philosophical exercise, just like this post. So no, if you have ever quoted the Bible, I haven't seen it. Perhaps you think you do? And no, I don't do live chats, so if you did quote the Bible there, it is gone into the ether. How convenient! But I do apologize if I missed you quoting the Bible. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

As far as challenging you on specific doctrines, I think that has been done continually in a variety of threads. Not just you, of course, but all the Catholics who keep reverting to the early church fathers when questioned about Mary, the pope, purgatory, and most important to me, soteriology.

I did an entire post on that at the beginning of this thread. Post #6. So feel free to see how you can reconcile Catholic Doctrine on salvation with the Bible. Because no one has even attempted that here. You say you believe in Jesus, but which Jesus, which salvation? Oh right, I challenged, I did not politely do "ask a Catholic what the Bible says on this topic." But then I was warning Blain, not talking to any Catholics at that point in the thread. But again, feel free to prove me wrong, by posting where the Bible says the RCC and its rituals saves? Or in fact, show me in the Bible where purgatory is found. Or please feel free to post where in the Bible it says sanctification comes before justification. And that no one can no whether they are saved till after they die.

[h=2]

Re: I want to understand the Catholic faith so....[/h]

Blain, the issue is soteriology! How you are saved.

Catholics wrongly believe two things - that the RCC church and its rituals save. That you have to have faith plus works.

I recently read that Catholics cannot know if they are saved or not. They are sanctified before they are justified. So God works on them their whole life, and if they are good enough, after they die, maybe spend some time in purgatory, they might be saved.

That is NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And be careful, some, not all - they will sin and then go to confession. I knew a woman that was committing terrible sexual sin, and then confessing on Saturday and going to mass on Sunday. I tried to tell her what she was doing was wrong, and she just brushed me off. I had to cut off my relationship with her, and she had been my best friend for years.

And she seemed like the nicest, most loving person you could meet. So beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. It takes years to find out the truth.​

 

[Kefa54]

Can we use the names of all the First Nation peoples we killed when we came to the Americas for religios freedom.

We all have dirt in our past. Can we drop this and just move forward. Dirt serves no purpose in this discussion.

Kefa

Can we use the names of Christians verifiably KILLED by the catholic institution?

 

[PoetMary]

Well, let's see, I've been following your posts for weeks. They all consist of some kind of intellectual or philosophical exercise, just like this post. So no, if you have ever quoted the Bible, I haven't seen it. Perhaps you think you do? And no, I don't do live chats, so if you did quote the Bible there, it is gone into the ether. How convenient! But I do apologize if I missed you quoting the Bible. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

I don't need to prove you wrong. You made an un-researched false statement as if it were fact. With very little effort on your part you could have found posts where I'd quoted scripture. Instead, you chose to make false claims. That's an ethical choice you made.

Part of the reason I've not addressed the issues you listed is because it seems like a fruitless exercise. You're not curious or interested--you have a well-established position. Others who have made similar posts also seem to have a decided POV. I have no need to move anyone from their theological position (particularly when it's based on non-essentials), so why get into a pointless argument. I have no interest in converting people to Catholicism. It sincerely doesn't matter to me what anyone believes about the RCC...UNLESS those beliefs affect their behavior toward people made in the image of God.

Ultimately, I'm concerned that people understand and connect with God's grace as expressed through the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and that people treat others with the decency and ethics expressed throughout scripture--like in the Ten Commandments; OR as mentioned in Micah 6:8--to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God; OR as spoken of by Paul in I Cor 13 "love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not rude, it is not proud, it is not self-seeking, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth;" OR as written of in I John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. He that loves not, knows not God, for God is love."

I think it's very possible that people of all sorts of denominations might come to this place having been raised in the church, but not really knowing Jesus and His grace. It's particularly true that Catholics might be drawn to some of these boards because of the titles. It seems more useful to have a desire to get to know them as people and find out if they *do* understand God's grace. If it seems they don't, then they need to hear about it. But I'm not sure we get an accurate understanding if we presume to know things about people before we've taken the time to get to know them.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Im still waiting for JUST a yes or no. meh...

 

[PoetMary]

Im still waiting for JUST a yes or no. meh...

​Jesus is Lord.

 

[blondieindahouse]

​Jesus is Lord.

That is true but I didnt ask you that.The very fact that you will not answer speaks volumes.

 

[crossnote]

Catholic heresy thread hasn't got enough pages for ya Blain?

I'm afraid he may have gone off with them (just sayin)

 

[crossnote]

Can we use the names of all the First Nation peoples we killed when we came to the Americas for religios freedom.

We all have dirt in our past. Can we drop this and just move forward. Dirt serves no purpose in this discussion.

Kefa

no that won't do. Countries kill, murder, and do bloody battles: Churches don't...or are at least not supposed to.

 

[santuzza]

I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it.

This is a ridiculous request -- especially considering the Catholic Church "extirpated" any Christians that did not follow Rome in the Middle Ages. Remember, throughout most of Europe, it was against the law to not be in the Catholic Church.

And in making this request, are you implying that the Catholic Church has not changed itself over the past 1600 years? The RCC's theology has "evolved" over many centuries. What they believed in 600 is not the same as what they believe today.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Psalm 139:13 says this: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb

Luke 1:41 says this: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit

God has a vested interested in children from the moment of conception. Additionally. John the Baptist recognized his Savior from the womb. I believe that God can and does speak to children. He is not limited by our understanding.

Romans 10:9 says this: because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:3 says this: Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Lord.

In multiple places on the boards and within the rooms I have proclaimed that Jesus is Lord and that I have need of him as my Savior. If you want to contradict 1 Corinthians and pretend that I somehow have the power to say that "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit, feel free to do so.

Psalm 139:13 says this: For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb

This has NOTHING to do with salvation. This is about God creating us.
Luke 1:41 says this: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit

This is speaking of the fore runner for Christ and Christ. It is also speaking of the mothers of the two.
John the baptist and elizabeth and Mary had to profess with their mouth that Jesus was Lord. It didnt happen any other time until then.

God has a vested interested in children from the moment of conception. Additionally. John the Baptist recognized his Savior from the womb. I believe that God can and does speak to children. He is not limited by our understanding.

Perhaps God does speak to children but lets stay on topic. Are we saved before understanding who Jesus was and what the atonement means? Dont we need to understand how we need his grace?

Isnt salvation limited to our understanding of the gospel of grace? It has absolutely nothing to do with Gods vested interest. God is not a respecter of persons .
cause, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So if this is the case(and it is) then why do you still adhere to the statement on your profile?
This is what is still on your profile:
When saved:
I was baptized as an infant and it took.
Were you saved as a baby being baptized and then as you matured to understanding was it was sealed when you professed with your mouth ?

Help me to reconcile water sprinkled on your head and salvation professing with your mouth.


Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


Ok,so just so we are clear,I want to know how your statement on your profile has anything to do with the scripture YOU and I provided. A concise answer will suffice

 

[PoetMary]

I don't know that I will be able to explain it in a way that makes you feel perfectly comfortable. I was baptized (and I believe baptism is a sacrament). I always knew and loved Jesus. My parents are very devout so I was surrounded by prayer, service to the Lord, reading the bible, love and compassion for others, etc. I was raised with the idea that sin displeases God and we must go to God for forgiveness. I never had what evangelicals would traditionally would call a "conversion" experience.

Trust me, I have a lot of experience with people questioning me regarding this issue. There was a period of time when I was a young teen that I was quite anxious about the fact that my experience didn't seem to fit the expectations of other Christians I knew. Over time, God let me know that I was His. I know what people expect to hear. I could easily make up something or "reframe" my experience in a way that would make you feel more comfortable, and get you to stop questioning my validity as a fellow-believer, but it would be disingenuous.

I know I have the Holy Spirit at work within me. I know that I have a relationship with God. I know that the reason I have this relationship is because of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus. I cultivate this relationship through prayer, scripture, fellowship with believers, the sacraments, and right living. I do these things out of love for the Lord, not because I feel I must earn God's favor.

I'm honestly not sure that there's anything I can say that would lead you to believe my testimony. It pains me that some of my fellow Christians are quick to reject me as a sister in Christ. I have no control over their acceptance or rejection. I can't be bound to their view.

 

[crossnote]

I don't know that I will be able to explain it in a way that makes you feel perfectly comfortable. I was baptized (and I believe baptism is a sacrament). I always knew and loved Jesus. My parents are very devout so I was surrounded by prayer, service to the Lord, reading the bible, love and compassion for others, etc. I was raised with the idea that sin displeases God and we must go to God for forgiveness. I never had what evangelicals would traditionally would call a "conversion" experience.

Trust me, I have a lot of experience with people questioning me regarding this issue. There was a period of time when I was a young teen that I was quite anxious about the fact that my experience didn't seem to fit the expectations of other Christians I knew. Over time, God let me know that I was His. I know what people expect to hear. I could easily make up something or "reframe" my experience in a way that would make you feel more comfortable, and get you to stop questioning my validity as a fellow-believer, but it would be disingenuous.

I know I have the Holy Spirit at work within me. I know that I have a relationship with God. I know that the reason I have this relationship is because of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus. I cultivate this relationship through prayer, scripture, fellowship with believers, the sacraments, and right living. I do these things out of love for the Lord, not because I feel I must earn God's favor.

I'm honestly not sure that there's anything I can say that would lead you to believe my testimony. It pains me that some of my fellow Christians are quick to reject me as a sister in Christ. I have no control over their acceptance or rejection. I can't be bound to their view.

This is not an attack, just asking to get your perspective.
Is is true, that in the Sacrament Christ is being recrucified/reoffered?