I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

[Magenta]

That also made me think of Matthew 6:7
"And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases like the gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their many words"

Repeating prayers over and over again is in no way pleasing to God.

"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Okay...Here's one!

Catholics the world over pray 'Holymary, mother of god, pray for us sinners NOW, (and at the hour, etc.). Since millions repeat this request over and over daily, is this mother of god not hearing, or is she simply ignoring the request? What is it the catholics are asking her to pray for, anyway, and wouldn't the best question to ask her be 'why is believing in 'her' son, (The Lord Jesus Christ) alone, Not good enough for salvation?' (NOW, and at the hour, etc.) I wonder what her answer would be.

Greetings sydlit,

Also, you will not find anywhere in scripture where we are taught to pray to anyone else but to God the Father in the name of Jesus who is sitting at his right hand and is ever making intercession for all believers. Only the One who shed his blood for us could speak on our behalf. Consider the following:

"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (Rev.5:1-5)

Now, if Mary was all that the RCC has claimed her to be, co-redeemer, co-mediator, full of grace, sinless, etc., in the scripture above when the angel calls out for anyone who is worthy to open the scroll, Mary should have been worthy to do so. But in fact, we see that it is only the Lamb, Jesus, who is able to break the seals and open the scrolls and that because he alone shed his blood and purchased mankind for God.

 

[Mec99]

Most of us True Christians on this site are missing the point with the Catholics and i'm also guilty of missing this very important point.

God positively decrees the election of some and negatively decrees the reprorbation of others. The positive side refers to God's active intervention in the lives of the elect to work Faith in their hearts. The negative refers to His passing them by and withholding His regenerating Grace from them.

If we are not really ashamed of the Gospel, we must acknowledge what is declared that God by His eternal goodwill appointed those whom He pleased unto Salvation,rejecting all the rest. Those whom He blessed with the free adoption to be His sons He illumines by the Holy Spirit, that they may receive the life which is offered to them in Christ. While others, continuing of their own free will in unbelief, are left destitute of the Light of Faith, in total darkness.

Therefore are we going against the will of the Father when we insist others,the Catholics, must accept Salvation from God? They may very well have been predestined not to accept God like us True Christians were.

2 Peter 2:4-10
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones


Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[sydlit]

That also made me think of Matthew 6:7
"And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases like the gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their many words"

Repeating prayers over and over again is in no way pleasing to God.

I agree, Somewhat, but to be fair, in context, I believe Jesus was indirectly chastising religious leaders for long-winded prayers that have no substance, praying only to be heard and applauded by others, and warning us not to be like that...Not necessarily a warning against repetition, per say. (imho)- I see nothing wrong with asking, and keep on asking, if one's heart is so burdened to seek the Lord, ...knock and keep on knocking...seek and keep on seeking...! My concern with the catholic defenders HERE is not so much the WHAT that is being prayed, but the WHO that the prayers are directed to. I believe prayers should be to the Triune God of Holy Scripture...whether one wants to say Father, Jesus, Lord, Saviour, or one of the many titles the true and living God is called as the Holy Spirit moves one to pray, but praying TO any one or thing other than God is probably not a good idea, whether it's a mary or a saint, a large wafer or a small cow. It's God who is our Creator, Lord and Saviour, He's the one who deserves our prayers.
AND THANK YOU, JESUS!!!(sorry, shouts of praise)

 

[Mec99]

Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

It was in 1854 when the Catholic Church created the Doctrine that Mary was born without sin. Before 1854 they was no official Doctrine that Mary was without sin.

I find it amazing that it took the Catholics over 1800 years to suddenly realize that Mary was without sin!

1854 marks the date when the Catholics walked away from God to follow and Worship Mary as their God.

 

[crossnote]

Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

It was in 1854 when the Catholic Church created the Doctrine that Mary was born without sin. Before 1854 they was no official Doctrine that Mary was without sin.

I find it amazing that it took the Catholics over 1800 years to suddenly realize that Mary was without sin!

1854 marks the date when the Catholics walked away from God to follow and Worship Mary as their God.

But apparantly facts don't matter too much around here...they are too cold, impersonal and unloving...just give us the stuff that binds us together regardless of doctrine or history.

 

[sydlit]

Hello Wahkatucky! (sorry, I can't say wishtasheer) SORRY, I type real slow on a sometimes slower tablet, (with lots of typos too), and a bunch more comments get posted while I'm still trying to respond to one from an hour ago, so I have to go back and figure out where I'm at. Lol. A few posts back, one catholic referred to some of us as 'funny-mentalists'. I guess the catholics don't get EVERYthing wrong. (Yup, guilty as charged)

Btw, Wahkee, nice pick-up on the reference to Revelation. He alone is worthy, He alone can hear and answer our prayers. The fact that He does is so incredible, and so the fact that He does should keep us praying to Him alone. Why seek answers from another, He has the words of eternal life, and the power to 'open' them to us. Amazing grace, what a saviour!

And mec99, I dont want to dispute with you, I rarely if ever disagree with your posts, but if what you say is true about election, (and I'm not saying it isn't), then maybe we should have just a little more grace towards those that are 'without', (and I'm saying that because I need to hear it as much as anybody), and try to avoid the 'us Against them'. And when we try to convey the truth, remember that salvation IS a gift, and pray that they would hear what we're saying and receive it. Remember He said it's not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence, (and if I may say, Faith in The Lord Jesus Christ), and since the Lord knows them that are His, but we don't, we should consider others as though they are, or will be, His. And again, I need to learn this as much as anyone, so pls don't take this as a criticism of you, mec99. Just hoping to learn to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

and since the Lord knows them that are His, but we don't, we should consider others as though they are, or will be, His

Ha, ha! It's Ahwatukee, which is a township south of Phoenix which I live in. I totally agree and have the same understanding that since we don't know those whom God wrote in his book of life from before the world began, foreknowing and predestining them, then we should treat everyone as those who are created in God's image, after his likeness and as those whom Christ died for, as possible believers.

 

[fordman]

Leading us to the truth? Which truth? your truth? God's truth? I am assuming you are going to say God's truth but the truth is that the truth is something different depending on the persons views. Our beliefs and our view of things can cloud our judgement of what the truth is, based on what we believe that may be what we see when in fact we are looking through a veil and the truth is still hidden

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thiskind of reminds me what Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, “what is thetruth?” As it turns out, Pontius was staring the truth right inthe face and didn't even know it. Jesus proclaimed he is the TheTruth in Jn.14:6; Jesus said to him “I am the way, and the truth,and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]whenJesus said “I Am” the Truth, He was really saying that God isTruth. So many people today believe that what they think is thetruth, regardless of what God says in His Word. Their ego and prideare so big that they have convinced themselves that whatever ideasthey come up with regarding abortion, homosexuality, money, etc., aretrue, because it seems true to their minds[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Sod[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]o[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]n'tbe like Pontuis pilate and question what truth is. Truth is whateverGod, His Word and His Church says it is, not what we may think it is,or what we wish it to be. Jesus Christ is the Truth, and Satan is thefather of lies. Thinking for oneself when it comes to deciding whatthe truth may seem smart and right, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]butlistening to what The Word says is the better, and only true, path totake. God sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church (singular, not thetens of thousands of Protestant/non-Catholic sects) in Truth, not theindividual person. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Albeit,even sinful priests today do not negate what the Truth is, anymorethan the sinful Judas and Peter negated what Jesus taught way backwhen. And intelligent people need to discern (a gift of the HolySpirit) when people are giving their strong personal opinionscleverly disguised and packaged as fact. People can be sincere intheir opinions, for sure, but also sincerely wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

C.S.Lewis once remarked that Hell is full of people who said.... “Mywill be done.” Whereas heaven is full of people who said..... “Thywill be done”, so choose wisely![/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]PaxChristi[/FONT]

 

[fordman]

Excuses, excuses, nothing but excuses.

Deflecting, deflecting, deflecting, nothing but deflecting!


Pax Christi

 

[sydlit]

Ha, ha! It's Ahwatukee, which is a township south of Phoenix which I live in. I totally agree and have the same understanding that since we don't know those whom God wrote in his book of life from before the world began, foreknowing and predestining them, then we should treat everyone as those who are created in God's image, after his likeness and as those whom Christ died for, as possible believers.

AH-WAH-TOO-KEE. Got it, i think, thanks brother, and thanks for the kind words. You are right, of course, He even told us to love and pray for our enemies, so how can we not see catholics, who are struggling to believe, in spite of false teaching, as also being those who Jesus died for. Amen to your post. ..... But, man.....
When i read that next post, it's all i can do to keep from smashing my head against the wall, since i can't reach through this tablet and......
(Grace, Lord, more grace). I gotta go, but i hope to pick this up later. There's plenty of food for thought, here, but the bottom line for that catholic friend....It's not you we are opposed to, it is the false teaching that the rc church does in our saviours name that we take a stand against, please try to see that, we are FOR you personally, just as Jesus is, but AGAINST teaching that would lead ppl away from Him.

 

[notuptome]

Sodon'tbe like Pontuis pilate and question what truth is. Truth is whateverGod, His Word and His Church says it is, not what we may think it is,or what we wish it to be. Jesus Christ is the Truth, and Satan is thefather of lies. Thinking for oneself when it comes to deciding whatthe truth may seem smart and right, butlistening to what The Word says is the better, and only true, path totake. God sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church (singular, not thetens of thousands of Protestant/non-Catholic sects) in Truth, not theindividual person. Albeit,even sinful priests today do not negate what the Truth is, anymorethan the sinful Judas and Peter negated what Jesus taught way backwhen. And intelligent people need to discern (a gift of the HolySpirit) when people are giving their strong personal opinionscleverly disguised and packaged as fact. People can be sincere intheir opinions, for sure, but also sincerely wrong.


C.S.Lewis once remarked that Hell is full of people who said.... “Mywill be done.” Whereas heaven is full of people who said..... “Thywill be done”, so choose wisely!



PaxChristi

Your opinion about the truth is completely biased and not biblically based.

The church is individual believers not a singular organization headquartered in Rome.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

The Holy Spirit makes the truth known to those in whom He abides. Individuals not a singular church organization.

God deals with souls on an individual basis not through corporate organizations. God loves individual souls not the corrupt organizations of men.

This is the will of God that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Why don't all come?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[fordman]

Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

It was in 1854 when the Catholic Church created the Doctrine that Mary was born without sin. Before 1854 they was no official Doctrine that Mary was without sin.

Have you ever read Pope Pius IX "Ineffabilis Deus" (1854) in its entirety? I think not, for if you had, you would have read (due to space constrants, I'll just give the just)
　

"And indeed, illustrious documents of venerable antiquity, of both the Eastern and the Western Church, very forcibly testify that this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, which was daily more and more splendidly explained, stated and confirmed by the highest authority, teaching, zeal, knowledge, and wisdom of the Church, and which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the Catholic world in a marvelous manner--(important part here Mecc99) this doctrine ALWAYS EXISTED in the Church as a Doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine."
　

And wait, theres more:

Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

To read the whole, go to: Ineffabillis Deus-EWTN.
www.ewtn.com/tecchings/marye1.htm
　

I find it amazing that it took the Catholics over 1800 years to suddenly realize that Mary was without sin!

lol..... how is the taste of Crow?

1854 marks the date when the Catholics walked away from God to follow and Worship Mary as their God.

Refuted.... So consider yourself spanked! So again, whats your thoughts on this:

1. Is it your understanding that the belief in the Sacraments such as of The Real Presence, Confession, Anoiting of the Sick, to name a few have always been strickly Catholic beliefs, (big C) and still are to this day?


2. Or how about the belief on Marian Doctrines such as The Sinlessness of Mary; her Perpetual Virginity; Mary, Mother of God; The Immaculate Conception; ect. Is it your understanding (belief) that these too have always been strickly Catholic beliefs, and still are to this day?

Pax Christi

 

[onlinebuddy]

Your welcome. Please keep the number of questions down to one or two. I look forward to hearing from you.

Yes, you will hear from me soon. I haven't been able to go through the links you have provided.
I missed a day and this thread has advanced so much that i find it difficult to catch up.
Once I get a chance to go through the links, I will get back with my views and questions.
Blessings!

 

[Utah]

Deflecting, deflecting, deflecting, nothing but deflecting!

Says the one who refuses to answer a basic question about the elements.

 

[Angela53510]

Forget about Mary!

I want the following questions about salvation answered in terms of what the Bible says.

Are we saved by Jesus alone?

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among menby which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

Or are we saved by Jesus and the church?

Or worse, are we saved by the church and Jesus? Meaning that some later traditions superseded what the Bible says?

 

[Magenta]

Forget about Mary!

I want the following questions about salvation answered in terms of what the Bible says.

Are we saved by Jesus alone?

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among menby which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

Or are we saved by Jesus and the church?

Or worse, are we saved by the church and Jesus? Meaning that some later traditions superseded what the Bible says?

Pope Leo XIII
In the first of his Rosary encyclicals, Supremi apostolatus (1883), Pope Leo XIII calls Our Lady "the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces." The following year his encyclical Superiore anno speaks of the prayers presented to God "through her whom He has chosen to be the dispenser of all heavenly graces.” But it was perhaps in Octobri mense (1891) that his Holiness gave the most forceful exposition of this doctrine: "With equal truth can it be affirmed that, by the will of God, nothing of the immense treasure of every grace which the Lord has accumulated, comes to us except through Mary....

http://www.tldm.org/News5/Mediatrix1.htm#_ednref21

 

[Magenta]

[TABLE="width: 550"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mary: Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]EWTN

---

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]
Cardinals Hoping for a 5th Marian Dogma - ZENIT
ZENIT reports on a letter sent by five cardinals, inviting prelates worldwide to join in petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma, proclaiming Mary as Mother of humanity, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate for the human race.

Cardinals' Letter Promoting Marian Dogma - Five Cardinal Co-sponsors
This is an English translation of the letter written by the five cardinal co-sponsors of the Fatima Symposium on Marian Co-redemption and sent to the world's bishops and cardinals asking them to sign a petition that asks Benedict XVI to proclaim Mary as the Spiritual Mother of Humanity. The letter was sent 1 January 2008.

Mary Cooperates in God's Saving Plan - Pope John Paul II
At the General Audience of 12 January 2000, the Holy Father reflected on Mary's place in our journey to the Father, who "desired Mary's presence in salvation history". The Virgin Mother has a mediating role, but one subordinate to the Saviour's. Her cooperation is founded on Christ's mediation and her sharing in his work takes nothing from him as the unique Mediator.

Mary United Herself to Jesus' Offering - Pope John Paul II
"With our gaze illumined by the radiance of the Resurrection, we pause to reflect on the Mother's involvement in her Son's redeeming Passion, which was completed by her sharing in his suffering", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of 2 April 1997, as he reflected on Mary's participation in the mystery of Redemption and her presence at the foot of the Cross.

Mary's Cooperation Is Totally Unique - Pope John Paul II
At the General Audience of 9 April 1997, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on the role of the Blessed Mother, calling attention to her unique "role of co-operator in the Redemption, which she exercised throughout her life and in a special way at the foot of the Cross."

To the Disciple He Said, Behold Your Mother - Pope John Paul II
"The universal motherhood of Mary, the 'Woman' of the wedding at Cana and of Calvary, recalls Eve, 'mother of all living' (Gn 3:20). However, while the latter helped to bring sin into the world, the new Eve, Mary, co-operates in the saving event of Redemption." So said the Holy Father at the General Audience of 23 April 1997.

Mary's Cooperation in Work of Redemption: Present State of the Question - Salvatore M. Perrella, O.S.M.
In the context of many requests for the Holy Father to define "ex cathedra" the Marian dogmas of Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate, Fr. Perrella explains the declaration of August 1996 from the Pontifical Marian Academy meeting at Czestochowa. The Academy is an organ of advice to the Holy See and does not speak authoritatively.

A New Marian Dogma? - L'Osservatore Romano
An editorial of L'Osservatore Romano, following upon the declaration of the Pontifical Marian Academy of August 1996, against the definition of new Marian dogmas, that is, Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate.

5th Dogma a Marian Antidote - ZENIT
An antidote to the challenges facing the Church and society today is the glorification of Mary through the proclamation of a fifth Marian dogma, says Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. In this interview with ZENIT, Cardinal Vithayathil comments on the effect the proclamation of the dogma could have on interreligious and ecumenical dialogue, and the possible fruits he foresees could result.

Gibson's Passion and Mary Co-redemptrix - Dr. Mark Miravalle
Dr. Miravalle, Professor of Theology and Mariology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, shows how Mel Gibson, in his film, The Passion of the Christ, portrays Our Lady as Co-Redemptrix in a uniquely effective manner.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/coredemedadv.htm[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Marian29]

The salvation is individual. Only God knows each one's heart, no matter if you were born in an ateist, catholic or pagan home. The Lord also doesn't divide His Glory with fake gods or sculptures that have eyes but can not see.

 

[fordman]

Says the one who refuses to answer a basic question about the elements.

Says the one who as of yet has addressed my challenge of giving the name of 3 people in each centary that believes the same as you do today, i.e. Sola Sciptura, Altar Calls, grape Juice for communion, ect. I'll even make it easier for ya, lets say the first five centeries.

Like I said before, address this, and I will address the Real Presence in the Eucharist.


Pax Christi