He became sin...???

[Mitspa]

I didn't say that typology is all that was needed. I said that He didn't literally become sin. The sacrifice was necessary. Without the shedding of blood there's no remission of sins. But the figurative speech is applicable to His death just as it is applicable to our salvation. Are we literally righteousness? No, but His righteousness is imputed to us by faith, just as our sin was placed on Him on the cross. Believers are called Christ, light, the temple of God, branches, sheep ... etc. None of that is meant to be taken literally. Understanding figurative speech is crucial in interpreting the Bible. If you try to apply a literal meaning to everything you'll end up hopelessly confused, believing that Jesus is a vine, a door, a lamb, a shepherd, a lion, and a rose. The message isn't contained in the literal wording but in the truth that it conveys.

If you believe that what God does in the (eternal) spiritual realm is more real than natural (temporal) realm, then yes He literally clothed us in righteousness by His Spirit...that's real not figurative

When you received the Holy Spirit did your nature change? I know mine did and that's the most "real" thing that has ever happened to me. Just because something is being done in the eternal spiritual realm (unseen) by man, does not mean its not real or literal. The scriptures are telling us real things that happened in the spiritual realm, when Christ became sin...that is real in the spiritual realm.


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm not telling you anything about me because it's none of your business!

You aren't interested in truth. You twist what I say.

Matt 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits

That's what I thought... do you believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh?

 

[Roberth]

Jesus Christ at the Incarnation

Two Distinct, Opposite Natures United in One Person
​

In order for Christ to legally qualify to be our substitute and representative, His divinity had to be united to our corporate fallen humanity that needed redeeming. It is in the incarnation that these two distinct opposite natures were united together in one person and Christ became the second Adam. This is the in Christ motif, the central theme of Paul’s theology [1 Corinthians 1:30].

The Paradox
​

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]AS GOD HE WAS:[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]AS MAN HE WAS MADE:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

1. Son of God [Lk.1:35]
2. Self-Existing [Jn. 1:4]
3. Spirit [Jn. 4:24]
4. Equal with God [Phil. 2:6]
5. Sinless [2 Cor. 5:21]
6. Independent [Jn. 10:18]
7. Immortal [1 Tim. 1:17]
8. Lawgiver [Ja. 4:12]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 30"]
[/TD]
[TD]

1. Son of Man [Lk. 19:10]
2. Of a Woman [Gal. 4:4]
3. Flesh [Jn. 1:14]
4. A Slave of God [Phil. 2:7]
5. Sin [2 Cor. 5:21]
6. Dependent [Jn. 5:19,30]
7. Mortal [Heb. 2:14,15]
8. Under Law [Gal. 4:4]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Roberth]

That's what I thought... do you believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh?

My conversation is over with you until you can let the Holy Spirit control your nature. Lying against a brother & twisting his words out of their context is a disgrace. You should be ashamed.

 

[Mitspa]

Do you believe He was the Word? and the Word was God?

 

[Roberth]

Do you believe He was the Word? and the Word was God?

My conversation is over with you until you can let the Holy Spirit control your nature.

 

[Mitspa]

My conversation is over with you until you can let the Holy Spirit control your nature.

That's a pretty simple question..why not just answer?

 

[BradC]

My conversation is over with you until you can let the Holy Spirit control your nature. Lying against a brother & twisting his words out of their context is a disgrace. You should be ashamed.

Then pick up a conversation with me and respond to Mitspa's question... Was Jesus actually God in the flesh who walked among men... And was not he also the Word made flesh who was in the beginning with God.

 

[tourist]

Then pick up a conversation with me and respond to Mitspa's question... Was Jesus actually God in the flesh who walked among men... And was not he also the Word made flesh who was in the beginning with God.

The answer is yes to both questions. The Word is God.

 

[Roberth]

That's a pretty simple question..why not just answer?

My conversation is over with you until you can let the Holy Spirit control your nature. Lying against a brother & twisting his words out of their context is a disgrace. You should be ashamed.

 

[Roberth]

Then pick up a conversation with me and respond to Mitspa's question... Was Jesus actually God in the flesh who walked among men... And was not he also the Word made flesh who was in the beginning with God.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[Roberth]

made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God...

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh" (Rom 8:3 NKJV)

What law?

Context: "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Rom 7:22-23

The law of God here is not the law written in stone, but the law written in the heart (mind). Notice the problem: The law written in our heart can't, of itself, defeat "the law of sin" (sin in the flesh).

So knowing this Paul is saying: The law written in my heart is made weak through the flesh (human nature). The proof? All of us "have sinned" and, in the continuous present tense, "fall short" of God's agape. See Rom 3:23

What's the solution?

Where we have failed, Christ did not. How did Christ do it?

"God ... sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin (because sin overrides the law in our hearts): He condemned sin in the flesh"!

What did God do? He condemned "sin in the flesh" because Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh!!!!!

Likeness doesn't mean unlikeness. Likeness in that He took our humanity with "sin in the flesh". Unlikeness in the sense that Christ was both God and man.

As God He was immortal and sinless. As one of us, He was mortal because He assumed "sin in the flesh."

 

[willfollowsGod]

Jesus Christ at the Incarnation

Two Distinct, Opposite Natures United in One Person
​

In order for Christ to legally qualify to be our substitute and representative, His divinity had to be united to our corporate fallen humanity that needed redeeming. It is in the incarnation that these two distinct opposite natures were united together in one person and Christ became the second Adam. This is the in Christ motif, the central theme of Paul’s theology [1 Corinthians 1:30].

The Paradox
​

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]AS GOD HE WAS:[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]AS MAN HE WAS MADE:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

1. Son of God [Lk.1:35]
2. Self-Existing [Jn. 1:4]
3. Spirit [Jn. 4:24]
4. Equal with God [Phil. 2:6]
5. Sinless [2 Cor. 5:21]
6. Independent [Jn. 10:18]
7. Immortal [1 Tim. 1:17]
8. Lawgiver [Ja. 4:12]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 30"]
[/TD]
[TD]

1. Son of Man [Lk. 19:10]
2. Of a Woman [Gal. 4:4]
3. Flesh [Jn. 1:14]
4. A Slave of God [Phil. 2:7]
5. Sin [2 Cor. 5:21]
6. Dependent [Jn. 5:19,30]
7. Mortal [Heb. 2:14,15]
8. Under Law [Gal. 4:4]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. Jesus while he was in heaven and on earth was the Son of God, so I have to lovingly disagree with you there. In fact he is called the Son of God or son of gods (that is a variant of that same phrase), Nebuchadnezzar sees Jesus before he comes to Earth from heaven in the gospels.

Daniel 3:25

25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

Footnote: Or the Son of God

So based on this, Jesus was fully God and fully man and was the Son of God, when he became man he was not made the son of man either. The term son of man does not always have to do with being a man, though that is one of the definitions for it. Another is son of man as a person who has authority given to them by God, in Jesus' case God the Father gave him God's authority.

2. Now to self-existing. True in heaven he was self-existing. But he was not made of a woman. He was born of a virgin, but he was not made, since he existed, is, and was God before creation.

3. Now to spirit. He still was spirit but was in human flesh or had a human nature.

4. Now to equal with God. He was equal with God in heaven and only for a while, was a slave of God.

5. Now to sinless. As God he was sinless but as a human he also was sinless. He was not born of Mary, with the same sinful nature that we have. He was tempted, yes, but he did not give in and used Scriptures against the devil. Now when he became sin, an exchange was occurring. One of my teachers explained it this way when he died on the cross, our sin was imputed on him, he never sinned but he felt the effect of our sin on him, in fact he was starting to feel that in the Garden of Gethsemane. While our sin was imputed to him, Jesus, since he is and was God, had God's righteousness imputed to us. Through accepting his death on the cross and making him our personal Savior and sovereign Lord, we are declared righteousness to God since Jesus is our representative to God the Father.

6. Now to independent, you are sort of correct on that. Though, since God is triune. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, are connected to each other since they are God. On earth, he was dependent but he still was part of the godhead.

7. Now to immortal while he was in heaven, yes. When he came to Earth he became mortal, so you are correct on that.

8. Now to lawgiver. In heaven he was the lawgiver, as man he fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. But he did become on Earth, as if he had broken the law and he did that for us. Even though he never did break the law of God. But he still was the lawgiver on Earth, since he created a new covenant to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love your neighbor (everyone) as yourself.

God bless. Have a beautiful day!

 

[BradC]

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

...the seed of David according to the flesh is a reference to Matt 1 and the lineage coming through Mary. The account in Luke 3 goes all the way back to Adam. His conception was through the Holy Spirit and John 1 let's us know he was the word made flesh, the incarnate Christ, who was equal with God and being so long with the disciples telling them that if they have seen him then they have seen the Father.

The flesh that is referred to is human flesh without sin or the stain of sin. The flesh that he showed to Thomas after the resurrection was a different flesh where the life of that flesh was not according to blood.

 

[Roberth]

The flesh that is referred to is human flesh without sin ..

Just because you state it doesn't make it so....

The flesh that he showed to Thomas after the resurrection was a different flesh where the life of that flesh was not according to blood.

That's because in the resurrection our life, indwelt with iniquity, remained in the grave. The old life from Adam died forever. That's the curse. In the resurrection God that Father raised Christ up as a new creation, free from mortality and indwelling sin. This new creation is now linked to Christ as the Son of God.

 

[Roberth]

As one of us, He was mortal because He assumed "sin in the flesh."

That brings us to a question. Why are we mortal? Why aren't we immortal, like the Trinity and the angels?

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death (mortality) through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

When Adam sinned his agape love became bent-back to himself. His agape took a u-turn towards self. We call that self-love. This indwelling sin is what brought death and mortality. Hence we belong to a condemned race, doomed to die. If it weren't for the gospel our death would be permanent.

The Scriptures state that God is immoral. See 1 Tim 6:16. This includes Christ, the Son of God. To be immoral means you can't die. Nothing can kill you.

How then did Jesus die?

1] His divinity never died. That would be impossible.

2] Then what died? Answer: The humanity that we all share.

In order for Christ to die He had to become what He was not by Divine right. Hence at the incarnation He clothed His Deity (which cannot die) with our shared life from Adam. The only type of life we have from Adam is a mortal life because of indwelling iniquity (our bent).

 

[Roberth]

Also keep in mind:

Rom 6:23 "[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the wages of sin is death"[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Notice that "sin" (singular) pays in death. Sin (singular) produces mortality. Sin singular isn't breaking rules. Sin singular leads to breaking God's law, but the "sin" that brings death is our inheritance from Adam, that is, "sin dwelling in me".

[/FONT]

 

[Mitspa]

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The Word became flesh and the Word was God...do you believe Christ Jesus was God? Or are you a Jahovahs witness?

How Could sin be in that FLESH?

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Lis45]

You can become obedient, but you can't become obedience. You can become sinful, but you can't become sin any more than you can become obedience. Jesus didn't literally become sin, but He was identified with our sin that we could be identified with His righteousness. Praise God! That's the point of the verse. So many people want to engage in theological hairsplitting and they miss the whole point.

I understand what you are saying, Lancelot. Don't worry. Some people on here want nothing more than to argue doctrine. Our God desires peace and unity among believers. I have to practice not even responding to them, because they only make me angry...which is really their goal anyhow...so they can point their finger and say..."hey look at them getting angry over "God's Word"....when it really has nothing to do with God's word, but rather their own ignorance. This is done in attempts to raise themselves up above another...to make themselves look and feel better about themselves before God. Do not fall for it. Just ignore them..it takes practice, believe me, lol.