He became sin...???

[Roberth]

If there was any sin in the members of Christ's own flesh...then sin would have reigned in a measure in his own body with some form of lust and he would never have been the spotless Lamb of God.

Christ never sinned and therefore He never was a slave to sin. We, on the other hand, are born without God's Spirit. Christ was born with God's Spirit. We were born spiritually dead and therefore what our natures wanted the mind desired also. Christ's mind was guarded by the Spirit of God from birth; therefore His assumed nature never got the better of Him. He lived a perfect life while in our fallen, corporate life. His performance was spotless.

Our sin could only be imputed to the body of Christ

So, God pretended like Christ assumed our sin in the flesh?

 

[Roberth]

I too can repeat:

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

What are we tempted to do? Answer: sin!

How are we tempted? That's how Christ was tempted. If we are tempted from within, by sin in the flesh, then Christ was tempted in the same manner. Only He never sinned, not even by a thought.

 

[PeterJens]

In order for Christ to legally qualify to be our substitute and representative

There is a problem here. The language of the gospel is to convey various spiritual realities but they may not be quite in the way you suppose.

Imagine you smash a window of a house. Now the owner of the house could ask you to pay for the repair.
What if the reason you smashed the window because you were scared of the owner, and thought all the things that went wrong was because the owner refused to make things easy for you. Just replacing the window free of charge would make no difference. You would still feel the owner was bad, and everything was unfair.

So instead of replacing the window, the owner came and lived among us, was friendly, open, listening, healing, everything you would expect a loving perfect human being could be. But He was rejected because he was different and keeping things exactly as they are was what mattered to us. So we killed Him. Because the problem is with us, not Him. He is innocent.

It is only through this sacrifice could we see the reality. We are the sinners, he is the one who sees and is perfect, and is able to save. By communing with Him that we find life and reality.

He became man not to fulfill some odd equation of justice, but to show His nature does overcome everything, sin itself.

It is not innate within humans to sin, it is without communion with the Lord that we get the wrong perspective, things spin out of control and we sin, feeling justified in our deeds, not realising how lost we really are.

Now God saw the only way to reach lost sinners was to create this concept of an equivalence of a sacrifice that would cancel out the debt. The debt was rebellion, lostness, being alone, and the life is communion, love and acceptance.
If you get hung up on this concept, it is because you are probably still on the outside and have not seen the reality of how love works.

 

[PeterJens]

not even by a thought.

Thoughts are not sin, but they lead to sin. Sins are actions, and if we dwell on those actions, they will become real.
Some of ordinary thoughts, like, that is beautiful woman, car, house, painting, job etc. leads to feeling of desire or need, but that is not sin. Sin is doing things that are wrong as a result, by taking things that are not ours.
A simple analogy is coveting. This is dwelling on with the desire to obtain something that we have no right to.
It is a state of being, but it is not I think that is a fantastic car. I like cars, but I have no desire to own a flash car or take one etc.

This is where you can become more legalistic than the pharisees and see sin everywhere, when it is just the appreciation of things that exist in life.

 

[Magenta]

Thoughts are not sin, but they lead to sin. Sins are actions, ...

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that
anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

 

[Roberth]

Thoughts are not sin, but they lead to sin. Sins are actions, and if we dwell on those actions, they will become real..

That's why so many become legalistic (they limit sin to outward actions) . Coveting isn't an outward action, but yet it's sin. It is sin at the the thought level.

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder (a physical action), and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry (a thought) with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment."

The law looks at the intents and thoughts of the heart. Anger is a cherished thought. It's sin. In God's eyes if you hate someone you've murdered them.

Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery (physically).’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (mind).

If you look at a woman, lustfully, you've sinned at the thought level.

Christ never sinned, even at the thought level.

 

[Roberth]

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that
anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

good one...

 

[Roberth]

BTW, I noticed the Canadian flag. Half my family is from the US (N. Carolina) and the other half from Canada (Newfoundland). I have some Canadian blood running through my veins.

 

[Roberth]

He became man not to fulfill some odd equation of justice, but to show His nature does overcome everything, sin itself.

Then Christ's death as our corporate head (the last Adam) was totally unnecessary. Keep in mind that God's law requires our death. To bypass this is to be unjust. Surely God must be just, right? Well, He was "in Christ Jesus"

Look who died:

"you also died to the Law (because it demanded your death) through the body of Christ".... Rom 7:4

 

[Roberth]

It is not innate within humans to sin, it is without communion with the Lord that we get the wrong perspective, things spin out of control and we sin,....

Since you have communion with the Lord I take it that you don't sin?

 

[Roberth]

It is not innate within humans to sin,

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[saintandrew4life]

Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world.

 

[PeterJens]

That's why so many become legalistic (they limit sin to outward actions) . Coveting isn't an outward action, but yet it's sin. It is sin at the the thought level.

There is a problem here. A large part of who we are is not conscious, it is not under our control. There will always be a problem with thoughts, but they are not sin of themselves.

A thought can be an involuntary action. It is the posing of an idea or situation. It could be an emotional reaction. If you get to the point that these reactions are who you are rather than how you react, you have lost the plot.

The part of you who is a true reflection of who you are is what you choose to dwell on.

Let me unpack what Jesus is talking about. Yes sin is actually commiting adultery but what leads up to it is the dwelling on the thoughts of sex, which is commiting adultery in your heart. He is not saying this is sin, he is saying it is almost the same, and will lead from one to the other. There is no point saying I do not commit adultery, and then actually living an imaginary life where you do. But still Jesus is emphasising the action of looking, communicating with another a desire.
Many fail at this level, where desire and release combine. Many seriously mentally ill people have fallen apart because they lost the internal battle of compromise.

Now getting angry with a fellow brother or sister is easily taken out of context. You can get annoyed at people, rebuke them, but Jesus is talking full blown anger, without restraint, that would lead to murder is the same, even though the action is not present. There can be good reason to get angry with someone because of failure or difficulty. Anger is a healthy thing and is part of the fear response, but you can take this idea too far.

We are called to bring things under control and not let our initial responses become who we are.

Again it is obvious you would say that being human is evil, because if you respond normally to an action it shows you are a sinner, but in reality it is your choices with how you initially respond that define what you are.

 

[PeterJens]

The insanity of perfection

We are a mechanism, inbuilt with responses to given situations. Everything you see the Lord defining as sin is considered action, things that take effort and have a consistent intention about. Jesus added to this in introducing the concept of the intentions and actions that lead up to the sin itself, such as anger and looking on another.

It is easy to then fall into continuous self condemnation, where the goal is always to have a redefined reaction to everything and always search for the best motivations. Some would say it is impossible to do an authentic act, truly self-less.

The problem is this is too analytical and wants to judge and measure every action, which often come from a whole series of influences and desires. Jesus speaks simply of seeing good works to do, loving others as best you can.

Jesus was dealing with those who wanted to check tick boxes to say they had arrived, while missing the intent of love. Too many here want to make walking in love impossible, and live continuously in self condemnation, they never allow themselves space to breath, using their definition of the law as their rod of iron. Claiming to be free from the law, they will use it continuously to say no one can walk properly with Jesus. This is just as bad as being legalistic which also misses the point.

 

[Lis45]

First ..its my thread.. second ..don't derail it...third ...I think its funny how people say they will ignore you and then follow you around to pick a fight

my your ego is high if you actually believe I'm "following" you around. And my response was directed toward another's reply, so please just stop. I don't want to fight. I find topics that interest me and I read them. If they happen to be yours, I really don't pay attention. So, if you would like, from now on, I will do my best to to involve myself in any of "your" created threads. If I do so in error, kindly point to whose thread it is. Simple as that. My God desires peace among the bretheren. We can simply agree to disagree and let that be the end of it. When responses come in my email, that's when I read and respond to them. So...I would like to ignore you... please, just don't respond to my posts or comments, and I won't respond to yours. Easy as that. Once you or I continue to do so, the fight goes on...the anger stays....and the devil himself wins.

 

[Mitspa]

If there was any sin in the members of Christ's own flesh and blood as a man who lived among men, then sin would have reigned in a measure in his own body with some form of lust and he would never have been the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and in all points as we, yet he was without sin. This sin, if he had it, would have been Adam's sin and our Lord would have been born in sin. But that is not the case for he was born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit and lived his life without sin in the members of his body. This is not an assumption it is who Christ was, not a man of sin but a man who knew no sin because he was God in the flesh.

Our sin could only be imputed to the body of Christ on the cross for he was without sin and that sin was crucified. He died because of sin being imputed to him to satisfy the justice of God and not because he had sinned. He became sin on the cross that we might become the righteousness of God in him. So we were crucified with him, buried with him and raised with him and are now sitting together with him in heavenly places according to the riches of his grace. Without the shedding of his sinless blood as the spotless lamb we would have no redemption or atonement for our sin or sins. So the spotless lamb of God took away our sins and the sins of the world as the son of God and the son of man who knew no sin and was never acquainted with sin. He is our passover lamb and unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life in us.

Of course and only groups that deny that Christ was the Word and God that promote the idea that Christ had sin...
I guarantee our friend here is a part of some group that denies that CHrist Jesus was God in the flesh.

 

[Roberth]

Again it is obvious you would say that being human is evil,.....

1] You have a liberal view of the world. You're probably the type that believe people are basically good, right?

2] You hardly ever quote the scriptures. What does this say about your views?

Here's some scripture:

Matt 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Now your definition of evil and God's are probably very different.

 

[Roberth]

I guarantee our friend here is a part of some group that denies that CHrist Jesus was God in the flesh.

Jesus as God didn't change and become flesh (the son of man). He was both God and man. Divinity stood its ground and humanity its. If He were just God, in human flesh, then why would He make this statement?

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” John 5:30


​

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus as God didn't change and become flesh (the son of man). He was both God and man. Divinity stood its ground and humanity its. If He were just God, in human flesh, then why would He make this statement?

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” John 5:30


​

So was He The Word made flesh?

 

[Roberth]

"....who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself (i.e., of His Divinity), taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross." Phil 2:6-8

So Christ, as the son of man, emptied himself of His Divine prerogatives and became a man. Christ handed the independent use of His Divinity over to His Father. That's why He said, "I can of mine own self do nothing!"