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The problem you have is you are staggering in the dark. There are two easy positions to take. There are no real problems or everything is a problem. It is the black and white argument. Man is so evil, he has to be obliterated, or people just have minor failings they are almost ok.
The problem is both are true. Jesus called his apostles clean. Peter was almost lost, while Judas failed.
It is so odd, that one speck of sin can destroy the whole of a beautiful picture, it spreads and eats it all away.
So people choose their emphasis assured in their bunker they have it right, while not seeing they both are right but not completely.
Man is flawed. To stand before the King in our natures is to stand and rebel because we can do no other. But with Jesus we bow, we are humbled, we know He is the King, the one who went further than any of us could dream or even understand.
But strangely the Lord calls us righteous, His holy people, the redeemed, even in these disagreements, he showers His blessing on us all, and waits patiently.
No I am not a liberal, but i know how lost people are. You talk as if I am an enemy, yet I seek to know His face.
The problem is both are true. Jesus called his apostles clean. Peter was almost lost, while Judas failed.
It is so odd, that one speck of sin can destroy the whole of a beautiful picture, it spreads and eats it all away.
So people choose their emphasis assured in their bunker they have it right, while not seeing they both are right but not completely.
Man is flawed. To stand before the King in our natures is to stand and rebel because we can do no other. But with Jesus we bow, we are humbled, we know He is the King, the one who went further than any of us could dream or even understand.
But strangely the Lord calls us righteous, His holy people, the redeemed, even in these disagreements, he showers His blessing on us all, and waits patiently.
No I am not a liberal, but i know how lost people are. You talk as if I am an enemy, yet I seek to know His face.
M
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Im not sure where you get that translation? But it clearly DOES NOT say he emptied Himself of His position as the Word made flesh or His divinity ... Why do think you can add such nonsense to Gods Word?
Notice how carful the scriptures are to say that He came in the form and likeness of sinful man...not as a sinful man in that He had sin in the flesh.
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Im not sure where you get that translation? But it clearly DOES NOT say he emptied Himself of His position as the Word made flesh or His divinity ... Why do think you can add such nonsense to Gods Word?
Notice how carful the scriptures are to say that He came in the form and likeness of sinful man...not as a sinful man in that He had sin in the flesh.
So you are equating that if we have "sin in the flesh" that makes us guilty sinners????
If so, you need to become Catholic because they believe in this heresy called "original sin" (which really should be called original guilt).
Show me were we stand guilty before God's law because we have "sin in the flesh"! And use the following context:
Rom 12:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
If so, you need to become Catholic because they believe in this heresy called "original sin" (which really should be called original guilt).
Show me were we stand guilty before God's law because we have "sin in the flesh"! And use the following context:
Rom 12:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
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The difference in the meaning of the words, we are redeemed sinners. The emphasis is now we walk in the kingdom, we are born again. We are no longer in condemnation, but walk in righteousness from the heart. We become a saint over time, through actions that transform who we are.
People imagine they are a static object, when actually we often behave from a product of our experiences and how we react to them. The problem is a large part of who we are and how we interact is from learnt reactions. This is our emotional wallpaper, which tells us how to react given defined situations. By walking with Jesus we become something different, we are remolded, by Him and His spirit through obedience. Sin freezes our hearts, cuts off our emotions and heart, but Jesus makes us real, alive.
Many here are so scared of this reality, religion is like a barrier against the things they fear within. But this is not where Jesus meant us to walk within.
This is important because without this basic transformation walking with Jesus is impossible, because we are not touched or changed, it is just words, a mask hiding the emotional realities within. Do not think I am saying this is simple, this is eternal life, effecting our very foundations.
This all impinges on what you think Jesus did on the cross, how he dealt with your and my sin, and why the cross is healing to our hearts. The strange trip for me is to reject the formalism of the words that seemed to encompass truth, but only in isolation. After growing within, and learning more about life and myself, the window opened up, to give greater meaning, but with the same scripture.
What you have in scripture is insights into a reality we often only see on the surface, but is still eternally profound.
People imagine they are a static object, when actually we often behave from a product of our experiences and how we react to them. The problem is a large part of who we are and how we interact is from learnt reactions. This is our emotional wallpaper, which tells us how to react given defined situations. By walking with Jesus we become something different, we are remolded, by Him and His spirit through obedience. Sin freezes our hearts, cuts off our emotions and heart, but Jesus makes us real, alive.
Many here are so scared of this reality, religion is like a barrier against the things they fear within. But this is not where Jesus meant us to walk within.
This is important because without this basic transformation walking with Jesus is impossible, because we are not touched or changed, it is just words, a mask hiding the emotional realities within. Do not think I am saying this is simple, this is eternal life, effecting our very foundations.
This all impinges on what you think Jesus did on the cross, how he dealt with your and my sin, and why the cross is healing to our hearts. The strange trip for me is to reject the formalism of the words that seemed to encompass truth, but only in isolation. After growing within, and learning more about life and myself, the window opened up, to give greater meaning, but with the same scripture.
What you have in scripture is insights into a reality we often only see on the surface, but is still eternally profound.
S
Just because sin is not imputed, it does not mean that there is not sin or the consequences of sin. All "not imputed" means is that God wasn't holding it against them. Notice that death still reigned as a result of sin, even if God wasn't holding it against them.
There is no way you can use those verses to say that a person can have sin in the flesh and still not have sin. All they mean is that sin was not imputed "held against" them. It is the same today for a born again Christian. Because of Jesus, sin is not imputed to us. That however does not mean that we are not effected by sin at all. If I commit adultery it can still cost me my marriage, my children, and my life as I know it regardless of whether God holds that sin against me or not.
There is no way you can use those verses to say that a person can have sin in the flesh and still not have sin. All they mean is that sin was not imputed "held against" them. It is the same today for a born again Christian. Because of Jesus, sin is not imputed to us. That however does not mean that we are not effected by sin at all. If I commit adultery it can still cost me my marriage, my children, and my life as I know it regardless of whether God holds that sin against me or not.
The death that resulted is because all share Adam's fallen life, indwelt with his bent-to-self (iniquity). Christ assumed this life and hence became mortal. The fact He was mortal, as the son of man, proves He assumed our fallen humanity.
Babies are sinners, but the law doesn't condemn them. Why? Because in order to break a law you must know the law. That's called volition. So that law does not hold us guilty for sharing Adam's fallen life.
Now it is true that we are born having our fallen natures and hearts in harmony (see Eph 2:2,3). Therefore we instantly become sinners, just not guilty sinners.
Christ's mind, at birth, was never in harmony with the our fallen humanity. Why? He was born spiritually alive where we are born without God's spirit. So Jesus, as a babe, never sinned were we have. Jesus was never a slave to sin therefore He never stood guilty before the law. He obeyed and thus fulfilled the law, but because He assumed our fallen life, indwelt by our bent, that life had to die. Thus Christ legally took the curse of the law.
Babies are sinners, but the law doesn't condemn them. Why? Because in order to break a law you must know the law. That's called volition. So that law does not hold us guilty for sharing Adam's fallen life.
Now it is true that we are born having our fallen natures and hearts in harmony (see Eph 2:2,3). Therefore we instantly become sinners, just not guilty sinners.
Christ's mind, at birth, was never in harmony with the our fallen humanity. Why? He was born spiritually alive where we are born without God's spirit. So Jesus, as a babe, never sinned were we have. Jesus was never a slave to sin therefore He never stood guilty before the law. He obeyed and thus fulfilled the law, but because He assumed our fallen life, indwelt by our bent, that life had to die. Thus Christ legally took the curse of the law.
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Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Your job is faith, from beginning to end. In return Christ presents your new creation, in Himself, before God and His holy law.
In Christ you are complete, but of yourself you are incomplete. That simply means no matter how good you might think yourself to be you are still a sinner. You are only complete in Christ Jesus.
Do you comprehend, or do you want to play the self-righteous card?
Here, I'll help you:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We become guilty of transgression when the law points out we are sinners. Before that point we stood condemned because we shared in Adam's fallen life.
Conclusion: We stand condemned for sharing Adam's fallen life. We do not stand guilty. Only Transgression makes us guilty before God.
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