He became sin...???

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Be exceedingly careful. Every man is born with sin (iniquity, our bent-to-self) in the flesh, that's true, but everyone is not born guilty. In fact no one is born guilty of sin. To teach such a horrific, pagan heresy is of the highest order of ignorance.

Are you sure you want to stand by your statement that "every man, ever born...is guilty of sin?" because if you do I going to prove that you are worse than an infidel for stating such. Are you sure you don't want to retract this ignorant statement?

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

shotgunner said:

Not in the carnal sense, however truth is truth and heresy, heresy. That's the sense I writing of....

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

If what you state is true (that man are born guilty of transgression) then every aborted fetus is lost (hell bound) because he/she didn't get to exercise faith in Christ for the remission of sins (transgressions). Too bad for them, huh?

That's the highest form of heresy!!!! You just excluded billions of unborn infants, through no fault of their own, from heaven and eternal life through your ignorant, stupid statement. Remind me not to attend your church because they teach heresy....

And no, I'm not a bit happy with you!!!

shotgunner · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

Heresy is a word that is used way too often.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

shotgunner said:

Maybe...

Can you suggest a better word, seriously....?

Mitspa · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

No I stand by what I said ...in context of our discussion about the Word made flesh.... is your flesh the "Word"..if not then clearly its different flesh than the flesh of Christ.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Mitspa said:

Here's what you said:

1] It's a damnable lie! Paul never states any such heresy. He never states that we come into this world guilty of transgression! What a lie...what a lie!!!!

2] You make Christ guilty of sin because He took upon His sinless Divinity, our fallen life. You are the one who is a blasphemer of the worse proportions.

shotgunner · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

Possibly, just a simple, "you are mistaken."

shotgunner · Oct 31, 2015

I think both you Roberth and Mitspa have the best intentions but possibly both of you need to step back, take a breath and just agree to disagree.

At least that's what I need to do when I get in an argument that becomes pointless. Pointless is when I cannot change the view of someone else no matter how I state something.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

If, as you have emphatically stated, we come into this world guilty of sin because we share Adam's fall life, then that would make Christ a sinner. But that's not what Paul states, is it?????

No! Here's what Paul states (and BTW, dust off your Bible, it's time to read it!)

12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned!

How did "all sin" in Adam? Does it mean all transgressed God's law in Adam? Clearly no:

Verse 13: For until the Law, sin was in the world (i.e., humans were sinning) , but sin is not imputed when there is no law (the law was given at Mount Siani, thousands of years later).

Clearly humans from Adam to Moses weren't dying because they sinned like Adam, after all they didn't have a verbal or written command/law. So they weren't dying because of their sins (transgressions).

Then why were they dying? Because they shared in Adam's life, indwelt with his bent-to-self. They were moral...they weren't immortal.

For Christ to die He had to become mortal. Yes, He remained God, but at the incarnation He assumed our life from Adam after the fall. Hence He became the son of man. He was both God, and man.

On the Cross Deity did not sink and die. Humanity, our humanity, died. Hence the law is satisfied.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

shotgunner said:

Okay, I'll try it....

blue_ladybug · Oct 31, 2015

I think the more accurate statement should be is that we are all born with THE ABILITY TO SIN.. We are all born into this transgressed, fallen world. I disagree completely though, with the notion that aborted fetuses are going to hell. THAT is completely unbiblical and definitely NOT true.. jmo

shotgunner · Oct 31, 2015

blue_ladybug said:

I agree with you. I have said before that we are all born with the propensity for sin, so much so that we will all fail when the choice comes.

I also think there is an age of accountability. I'll leave that determination up to God however since I'm sure he is a better judge of it than me.

Mitspa · Oct 31, 2015

blue_ladybug said:

We are all born with the condition of sin in the flesh...the discussion has been that Christ had sin in His flesh as we do...which is clearly not the truth of scripture and I believe is blasphemy against Christ. Now the idea that a just God (the God we know) would do something so unjust is not in anyway something I have suggested ..its just silly ...Of course God is more merciful and just than any of us....but the fact is that everyone..baby etc has the condition of sin in the flesh.

Mitspa · Oct 31, 2015

shotgunner said:

Part of how folks continue to promote false doctrine on forums like this is by making a discussion pointless and just making others tired of trying to debate a issue. I can do this years ...I don't stop and don't get frustrated ...eventually they give up because the lie is never as strong as the truth.. the issue here is whether Christ had sin in His Body...the Word made flesh... This is simply not something I can allow to be promoted without challenge....

Not upset..not mad..not moved

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

blue_ladybug said:

No, as Paul states, we are slaves to sin (see Rom 7:14) pre-Christ. Only post-Christ do we begin to experience a change. So yes, although harmless, babies are sinners. However, the law can't legally charge them with transgression because guilt involves volition. At the age of accountability things change.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

shotgunner said:

Actually, the mind and our fallen nature are in harmony before Christ (see Eph 2:3) so there's really no such thing as choice. Even the converted mind, that want's to do good, can't win against the clamors of human nature (see Romans 7:14-20). Only as we, 1] rest in Christ's finished work and [2 lean to walk in the Spirit can we progress, spiritually.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Mitspa said:

Sin in our members (sin in the flesh) is, as you said, a condition. We are born bent-to-self, which simply means we are born loving ourselves. In other words we are born self-centered or selfish. Hence the clamors of our fallen nature, through the members of our body, tempt the mind to sin.

"Christ had..."? Hmmm? Who is Christ? Didn't Christ exist before the incarnation? Yes. Therefore the answer is Christ is God. So God never HAD (your words) "sin in the flesh". But...at the incarnation Jesus as God united Himself to our corporate humanity, in the womb of Mary, that need redeeming.

What type of humanity did Mary possess? Wasn't it a fallen one, indwelt with our condition?

So the only thing she could pass on to Christ, as the son of man, was a life indwelt by iniquity (our "bent"). Otherwise you must teach what the Catholic teaches, that is, the immaculate conception.

Now why did Christ as God have to legally assume our fallen life from Adam?

Answer: Because God's law demands two things:

1] Obedience, perfect obedience.

2] Death to those who fail

By assuming us, Christ as the son of man (called "the last Adam") lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. He never sinned even by a thought. He did this because He was born spiritually alive and therefore the clamors of our nature, which He assumed for about 33 years, never got the better of Him. This answered # 1.

But because He assumed us in our fallen condition, our life from Adam had to die. And it did "in Christ Jesus" (see Rom 6:6/7:4). Hence the justice of the law has been legally established. This answered # 2.

IF Christ assumed our humanity before the fall (that didn't need redeeming) the law still remains unsatisfied and therefore you, the sinner, must answer the demands of the law yourself. That means that you have to obey perfectly, but if you sin you must die. My Bible tells me "all have sinned" and all are continuing to fall short of God's agape love. See Rom 3:23

So this vicarious gospel, that you present, removes Christ from what He came to do, that is, save sinners, legally and morally according to God's own law.

Roberth · Oct 31, 2015

Mitspa said:

Well, what you are presenting is "another gospel", which is very dangerous. It can lead to damnation (see Gal 1:6-9). So at sometime I hope, for your sake, you are moved. God is patient.

Again, God's law demands two things:

1] Obey & live

2] Disobey & die

Since all have sinned and come short of God's love expressed in the moral law, all stand guilty when they reach the age of accountability. To remain under law means death.

The good news (gospel) is that Christ, as God, assumed our life from Adam and in that fallen life (as the son of man) answered the demands of His Father's law.

Hence "in Christ" you, by faith, can say that "in Him" you were legally made obedient and "in Christ" your old life from Adam died to the demand's of its justice.

Now, if Christ assumed your life before the fall (which didn't need saving), the law has not been satisfied and there's no gospel to save you, legally, from under law. That means with respect to your gospel you are still under law and in the end there's no good news, just eternal damnation.

So I think you better be moved and come around to the gospel Paul preaches.

Mitspa · Oct 31, 2015

Roberth said:

Sin in our members (sin in the flesh) is, as you said, a condition. We are born bent-to-self, which simply means we are born loving ourselves. In other words we are born self-centered or selfish. Hence the clamors of our fallen nature, through the members of our body, tempt the mind to sin.

"Christ had..."? Hmmm? Who is Christ? Didn't Christ exist before the incarnation? Yes. Therefore the answer is Christ is God. So God never HAD (your words) "sin in the flesh". But...at the incarnation Jesus as God united Himself to our corporate humanity, in the womb of Mary, that need redeeming.

What type of humanity did Mary possess? Wasn't it a fallen one, indwelt with our condition?

So the only thing she could pass on to Christ, as the son of man, was a life indwelt by iniquity (our "bent"). Otherwise you must teach what the Catholic teaches, that is, the immaculate conception.

Now why did Christ as God have to legally assume our fallen life from Adam?

Answer: Because God's law demands two things:

1] Obedience, perfect obedience.

2] Death to those who fail

By assuming us, Christ as the son of man (called "the last Adam") lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. He never sinned even by a thought. He did this because He was born spiritually alive and therefore the clamors of our nature, which He assumed for about 33 years, never got the better of Him. This answered # 1.

But because He assumed us in our fallen condition, our life from Adam had to die. And it did "in Christ Jesus" (see Rom 6:6/7:4). Hence the justice of the law has been legally established. This answered # 2.

IF Christ assumed our humanity before the fall (that didn't need redeeming) the law still remains unsatisfied and therefore you, the sinner, must answer the demands of the law yourself. That means that you have to obey perfectly, but if you sin you must die. My Bible tells me "all have sinned" and all are continuing to fall short of God's agape love. See Rom 3:23

So this vicarious gospel, that you present, removes Christ from what He came to do, that is, save sinners, legally and morally according to God's own law.

Again you seem to make one error and then build error upon that error...so from this point I will just take the one error in each post that best demonstrates your lack of understanding on this issue ... The Law was spiritual, it demanded much more than outward obedience ..its purpose was to judge and condemn the sin in the flesh of all men and to expose every heart as having fallen short of Gods Glory. A new heart is required for salvation...a new spirit

The sinless blood of Jesus would have been from His Father ,...not mary.

He became sin...???

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