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G
Makes me want to puke. One little switch, on a major false doctrine................................"let us not give UNBELIEVERS a false hope.
And any person who has not placed their full trust in Christ alone for their salvation, is an unbeliever. Anyone who has believed Christ+_______________ and has never believed in Christ alone is an unbeliever.
I repented of my sins and for that reason Christ saved me............unbeliever.
I asked Jesus into my heart and he saved me............unbeliever.
I am trying to make Jesus Christ Lord.................unbeliever.
I walked an isle with tears.................unbeliever.
I said the sinners prayer............unbeliever.
I feel godly sorrow and asked Jesus to forgive my sins............unbeliever.
I recognize that I am a sinner, and I trust that Jesus Christ ALONE paid for all my sins and he died on the Cross and rose again for me...............believer and saved.
And any person who has not placed their full trust in Christ alone for their salvation, is an unbeliever. Anyone who has believed Christ+_______________ and has never believed in Christ alone is an unbeliever.
I repented of my sins and for that reason Christ saved me............unbeliever.
I asked Jesus into my heart and he saved me............unbeliever.
I am trying to make Jesus Christ Lord.................unbeliever.
I walked an isle with tears.................unbeliever.
I said the sinners prayer............unbeliever.
I feel godly sorrow and asked Jesus to forgive my sins............unbeliever.
I recognize that I am a sinner, and I trust that Jesus Christ ALONE paid for all my sins and he died on the Cross and rose again for me...............believer and saved.
K
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Basically Gods will is that we accept him and rest in him. We will grow from there, in his strength, and wisdom, through the Holy Spirit..
I have never taught a new believer that he is doomed. I just tell them to keep your focus on Jesus and you will grow.
Kefa
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Basically Gods will is that we accept him and rest in him. We will grow from there, in his strength, and wisdom, through the Holy Spirit..
I have never taught a new believer that he is doomed. I just tell them to keep your focus on Jesus and you will grow.
Kefa
K
It should be remembered that at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, two thieves were crucified beside Him (Luke 23:33–43), and both began their time on the cross by mocking and blaspheming Him, as did many of the spectators. One of the thieves responded in faith to the message of salvation and was taken to paradise. He is the one usually referred to as the thief on the cross, while the other man did not respond in faith and is now suffering from a deadly and eternal mistake.
One believed and one didn't.
(Case for Christ)
We are saved by Grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8
Kefa
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K
As Jesus was hanging on the cross, paying our penalty for sin, He made a promise to a dying, repentant thief. By the grace of God and the power of Christ, that promise was kept. The thief’s sins were washed away, and his death that day was his entrance to paradise.
( Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll )
Kefa
( Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll )
Kefa
So, MacArthur is saying if you don't have fruits/works in your life, you basically are not saved?
I see this two ways.
1. Repentance is emphasized, which is a change of direction, including walking up the narrow way, towards Jesus. I have heard too many evangelical messages that miss this important part of the gospel. And known of too many people who prayed a "sinner's" prayer and never walked with Jesus the rest of their lives. So from this perspective, this might be an antidote to easy believism, as the article says.
OR
2. Too much is placed on what the believer does, as opposed to what the Holy Spirit does in the life of the believer - changing them and transforming them. I know I was a wretched sinner, before I was saved. There truly was nothing I could have done to come before Christ and be worthy of his sacrifice on Calvary. And I did not have the strength to follow Christ on my own. When I made Jesus Saviour, he made himself Lord of my life. Nothing in me did that!
What is interesting, is that church I talked about in my previous post, was that the pastor loudly proclaimed that we did need to make Christ the Lord of our lives. Which makes me wonder if this doctrine has changed and morphed a bit more into something else?
This really does sound like another grace vs works issue. Can we work at being saved, and being obedient, or does Lordship come totally from God? I guess it depends upon whether God is totally sovereign, or just a little bit in control? Leaving the rest of the control to us?
I don't serve a God like that. I serve the holy God who controls the entire universe, and that includes me!
I see this two ways.
1. Repentance is emphasized, which is a change of direction, including walking up the narrow way, towards Jesus. I have heard too many evangelical messages that miss this important part of the gospel. And known of too many people who prayed a "sinner's" prayer and never walked with Jesus the rest of their lives. So from this perspective, this might be an antidote to easy believism, as the article says.
OR
2. Too much is placed on what the believer does, as opposed to what the Holy Spirit does in the life of the believer - changing them and transforming them. I know I was a wretched sinner, before I was saved. There truly was nothing I could have done to come before Christ and be worthy of his sacrifice on Calvary. And I did not have the strength to follow Christ on my own. When I made Jesus Saviour, he made himself Lord of my life. Nothing in me did that!
What is interesting, is that church I talked about in my previous post, was that the pastor loudly proclaimed that we did need to make Christ the Lord of our lives. Which makes me wonder if this doctrine has changed and morphed a bit more into something else?
This really does sound like another grace vs works issue. Can we work at being saved, and being obedient, or does Lordship come totally from God? I guess it depends upon whether God is totally sovereign, or just a little bit in control? Leaving the rest of the control to us?
I don't serve a God like that. I serve the holy God who controls the entire universe, and that includes me!
R
lordship salvation is basically legalistic calvinism...
lordship salvation teachers manage to mesh their legalism with their calvinism by pointing out that you can recognize salvation by the fruit it produces...so the problem is not so much in the doctrine but in the emphasis...
at its purest level lordship salvation can lead to christians never being assured of their election because they are never sure that they have done enough good works to evidence salvation...but in practice it generally leads to total self righteousness as they tend to set an arbitrary standard for what constitutes 'enough' good works to evidence salvation...which always seems to have them including themselves among the 'elect' and excluding anyone less 'righteous' than them...
lordship salvation teachers manage to mesh their legalism with their calvinism by pointing out that you can recognize salvation by the fruit it produces...so the problem is not so much in the doctrine but in the emphasis...
at its purest level lordship salvation can lead to christians never being assured of their election because they are never sure that they have done enough good works to evidence salvation...but in practice it generally leads to total self righteousness as they tend to set an arbitrary standard for what constitutes 'enough' good works to evidence salvation...which always seems to have them including themselves among the 'elect' and excluding anyone less 'righteous' than them...
Romans 10:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
James 4:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Submission & subjection require something besides thinking about it.
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
James 4:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1 Corinthians 9:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Submission & subjection require something besides thinking about it.
. He is what He is (I am that I am, Before Abraham was, I am). We receive Him as He is. More amazing, He receives us as we are!How compassionate of you.
It is not for us to determine (say in our heart), not to mention say out loud to dead people's relatives who WE THINK is saved or not saved, but to share the Gospel:
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says:
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (from Rom. 10)
“Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (from Rom. 10)
Only God knows the heart, and what takes place in relation to Him in one's final moments. You owe that man's brother an apology.
-JGIG
I have a problem, because I know this sounds very harsh. It just so happened this particular individual shared with me his liking of Himmler who was the architect of the nazi death camps. Now of all the crimes of the 20th century this ranks among the worst. After this conversation, I did not want to say another word to them.
Now I loved them as I would love anyone, but this is just so evil, so insane and twisted. One particular person at that funeral also held similar political views.
Unfortunately on this issue I am not going to be nice or super-sensitive. So many "christians" think it is about whether people are saved or not saved. What I was talking about is being real about where someone was in their life, and not faking something that they themselves would never hold to.
What would you say to Himmlers widow at his funeral?
Evil does exist and people fall into hell every day. Too often the culture wants a fairy land ending where there is none.
I have been with people who were dying of cancer, and whatever their outlook on life, they appeared to have zero interest in Jesus, or even talking about life issues. It is often a comfort to grieving relatives to hold on to the idea, they might have had a death bed realisation and conversion. Ofcourse for some this might be true, but I doubt very many.
An apology to his brother? For what? Speaking the truth. His brother has now died, and was a regular church attender and had a good heart. I do not think he ever knew his brother to this degree, but we never talked about it. He certainly did not take what I said badly, it might of been a reminder of what he already knew and had experienced over the years.
What it does remind me of, is I never managed to connect properly to this individual, but I doubt that would ever be possible, simply because of the number of shut doors they put up in their life. It would be fantastic to learn that they did reach out to Jesus, but I have no reason to believe anything like this happened.
I am being honest here, and that is all I can be.
To give you another insight, my wife spent 2 years working on an exhibition about the death camps, so I know intimately how evil and barbaric this world was, which made the emotional impact of such words doubly difficult.
Now I loved them as I would love anyone, but this is just so evil, so insane and twisted. One particular person at that funeral also held similar political views.
Unfortunately on this issue I am not going to be nice or super-sensitive. So many "christians" think it is about whether people are saved or not saved. What I was talking about is being real about where someone was in their life, and not faking something that they themselves would never hold to.
What would you say to Himmlers widow at his funeral?
Evil does exist and people fall into hell every day. Too often the culture wants a fairy land ending where there is none.
I have been with people who were dying of cancer, and whatever their outlook on life, they appeared to have zero interest in Jesus, or even talking about life issues. It is often a comfort to grieving relatives to hold on to the idea, they might have had a death bed realisation and conversion. Ofcourse for some this might be true, but I doubt very many.
An apology to his brother? For what? Speaking the truth. His brother has now died, and was a regular church attender and had a good heart. I do not think he ever knew his brother to this degree, but we never talked about it. He certainly did not take what I said badly, it might of been a reminder of what he already knew and had experienced over the years.
What it does remind me of, is I never managed to connect properly to this individual, but I doubt that would ever be possible, simply because of the number of shut doors they put up in their life. It would be fantastic to learn that they did reach out to Jesus, but I have no reason to believe anything like this happened.
I am being honest here, and that is all I can be.
To give you another insight, my wife spent 2 years working on an exhibition about the death camps, so I know intimately how evil and barbaric this world was, which made the emotional impact of such words doubly difficult.
My heart breaks at such words. I have met some very confused and lost people, who struggle everyday just to do the basics.
If anyone has just a glimpse of the Lord and reaches out, He is there.
The people who make me question their salvation are the loudest, pompous, high and mighty, who claim a curse on those who oppose them. It is they who I wonder which God they follow, money or Jesus.
If anyone has just a glimpse of the Lord and reaches out, He is there.
The people who make me question their salvation are the loudest, pompous, high and mighty, who claim a curse on those who oppose them. It is they who I wonder which God they follow, money or Jesus.