LORDSHIP SALVATION

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This is the subtleties of the false teaching of lordship salvation.

They will put the emphasis on "examine YOURSELF" and forget about "whether you be in the FAITH"

being in the faith is standing directly in front of that Cross and knowing that we are hopelessly lost in our sinful state and trusting completely in Christ's grace sacrifice for our sins.

Lordship salvation will say examine YOURSELF to see if you have evidence of a new life. Examining ourselves will only lead to hopelessness, guilt,loss.

We examine ourselves to see if we are in the FAITH..........at the foot of the cross and trusting completely in HIS finished work.

We make our calling and election SURE by believing wholly in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

We start "examining ourselves" its never pretty.


load of skubala (lordship salvation) is the counterfeit that reigns in todays world. Its sooooooooo close to the truth.

something they forget.

If I examine myself. I have to examine using Gods standard (not my own, or not mans) And if I do this, I find myself in serious trouble. because I have failed, am failing, and will continue to fail to live up to Gods standard.

So there is no way I can examine myself and think I have made it.. For I would be lying to myself.

I have to examin the cross. And continue to have faith in it, for it is my only hope

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh dear I am not a big fan of John M. Although I was raised on him and heard some very good doctrine that agreed with the Bible Baptist church we were members of. But we as a family could not live up to their level of being a good Christian.

What does your own church have to do with either MacArthur or Lordship Salvation, and particularly MacArthur's teachings that address Lordship Salvation?

And my personal- take issue attitude with calling other believers heretics for seeing a Bible truth differently than they do. I believe Christians are called to much higher ground than that.

Who has called anyone a heretic?

And I agree, we are called to a higher ground, but unfortunately, we also have to deal with those who present false doctrines and concepts, as well as those that falsely charge others with something they are not guilty of.

Shooting the brethren NEVER works.

But it's okay to make disparaging remarks about MacArthur? lol

Look, I don't agree with everything MacArthur teaches, but if there is one teacher I don't have a problem directing new believers to it is MacArthur.

And when people accuse him of something so conflicting with his actual teachings...that should be addressed.

So who is shooting who? lol

Our church had us separate from so many other believers that we were an island to ourselves.

That is the same problem...every denomination has.

Except for those peculiar fellowships where any belief is acceptable, that is.

There is nothing wrong with being a member of a denomination in itself, if the Student knows that all men have error. If someone is looking to their denomination as the foundation of their faith...they are sadly mistaken. Christ is the Foundation, and we have to be satisfied, in regards to what fellowship we belong to, that we have found the place that God would have us a part of.

We had it down pat what each Christians sect believed and convinced ourselves that we were the faithful 'remnant'

So does every other fellowship out there.

But we can determine whether they are by examining their beliefs in light of Biblical Doctrine, right?

And so far I have yet to find a single denomination that qualifies, nor do I forget that even in Scripture we see cultural differences between Jew and Gentile which allow for a difference in practice. So, for example, I am not going to blast my Jewish brother if he wants to consider Saturday the day he wants to set aside in the week as a time of distinct worship, nor will I raise an eyebrow if he celebrates Passover.

It's sort of like the zeal of well meaning Christians who go over board and blow up abortion clinics.

Now LadyLynn, I have got to ask you...do you really think there are "well meaning Christians out there blowing up abortion clinics?"

You might want to think about that before answering, lol.

Yes, they are killing little infants in there, yes it drives us to have to do something over the top because what is being done in there IS over the top as those little babies are being murdered only a few feet away from us.,,, but we cannot blow up the clinic.

That is not "going over the top," that is complete disobedience to the Word of God and God's will on such a basic and fundamental level that we can quite easily...question whether it was a Christian that did it or not.

Evil cannot overcome evil. Only good can overcome evil.

I agree, and again recommend John's site as a good resource if one wants to actually know MacArthur's teaching considering Sola Fide.

Now, can I ask what relevance this has to anything I said?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This is the subtleties of the false teaching of lordship salvation.

First, this is the teaching of Paul, and applying a derisive term to it doesn't change the intent of Paul's teaching.

Secondly, not sure why you would consider Paul's teaching to be false.

They will put the emphasis on "examine YOURSELF" and forget about "whether you be in the FAITH"

Who did that?

Do you see any emphasis in there?

The entire verse was given.

So who is putting emphasis on part of the teaching?

Let's leave it intact, and examine the entire statement, and you can tell me what Paul means (and here I will put emphasis on the parts) when he states...

2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?



2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?




2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?



2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?



2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Please expound upon the parts, that I might better understand why you have placed emphasis on only one part.

being in the faith is standing directly in front of that Cross and knowing that we are hopelessly lost in our sinful state and trusting completely in Christ's grace sacrifice for our sins.

Not according to Paul. He suggests that we examine ourselves and see whether Christ is in us or not.

And what is the corollary?

That we are reprobates?

Lordship salvation will say examine YOURSELF to see if you have evidence of a new life.

Actually, it's the Bible that teaches that.

Here is another example:


1 John 3:4-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Is John speaking about "standing directly in front of the Cross" here?

Or is he speaking about some simple truths in regards to those who profess to be saved?

Examining ourselves will only lead to hopelessness, guilt,loss.

That would be Paul's point, lol.

If an examination leads to guilt, for those who are saved, it serves to remind them of their reasonable service.

For those who are not saved, but have a false security of salvation...it should lead them to repentance, even as a member here has just testified.

I know a guy that sat in a church for thirty years before coming to understand he was not saved. He is now one of the few Forum Missionaries I know.

He is not just standing directly in front of the Cross, nor just sitting in a pew, he is going out and doing what Christ has commanded of him now.

We examine ourselves to see if we are in the FAITH..........

That is in the verse.

at the foot of the cross and trusting completely in HIS finished work.

This is not.

The point is to make sure...we are actually saved.

We make our calling and election SURE by believing wholly in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

No, we make our calling and election sure by seeing if our lives replicate what is taught in Scripture.

Good fruit, likely we are saved. No fruit...we have reason to question it.

We start "examining ourselves" its never pretty.

That's the point, lol.

Sin in our lives is never pretty, and if sin is the pattern of our lives, then according to John...we are lying to someone. First and foremost ourselves.

And when we teach a Gospel that is nothing more than a general acknowledging of Christ, rather than the repentant attitude of those who have come under conviction of sin (which is a never -ending process with believers), then we deceive ourselves.

Someone said in a thread recently, "The Gospel is not about sin."

That is a lie: you can't have the Good News before you understand the Bad News.

The Gospel is about sin, it is the Remedy for it.

load of skubala (lordship salvation) is the counterfeit that reigns in todays world.

What is skubulon is any Gospel that errs to either side, anti-nomian, as well as legalistic.

Both are unbalanced gospels that are powerless because they do not have the authority of the Word of God behind them.

We have to be careful in our presentation of the Gospel to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a matter of Sola Fide, but that is in regards to salvation itself. That doesn't mean believers are relived from being in obedience to God in all aspects of their lives.

And while coming into obedience is a process we will go through the rest of our lives, let's not coddle those who run under a perception that one can be saved and go on with their lives as though nothing has changed. Regeneration is a matte of a new creature, not a reformed sinner.

Its sooooooooo close to the truth.

So what does this have to do with anything I have said?


God bless.

 

[Gr8grace]

Eph 2:10~~King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"we might walk" is the aorist active subjunctive of peripatew

With our volition we actively make ourselves available to the works. The subjunctive mood denotes "maybe we will ,maybe we won't"

God doesn't coerce or force the believer to do these works(Divine good.) We make ourselves available for these works or we do not.

Some believers will not have "evidence" for us.

Are we in the faith? "Boy, I sinned and did kinda like it. Maybe I am not really saved." or "Are we trusting in Christ alone and HIS work alone?"

 

[crossnote]

Great advice, lol.

Anyone familiar with John MacArthur will know that his teachings concerning Lordship Salvation are a direct address of "easy believism," and that we are hard pressed to find a teacher who better understands Sola Fide.

"Lordship Salvation" and John MacArthur both took hits as false by those who misunderstood his teachings. In one Independent Baptist Church I was a member of, leaflets were passed around charging MacArthur with false teachings because He said "...the literal blood of Christ fell to the ground," which is true, but, not something that a hyper-literal group believes because they believe Christ took His literal blood into Heaven, and that it remains there to this day.

The term "blood" is a reference to His death, and that is precisely what He obtained eternal redemption for us through.

Just before giving up the ghost, He said...it is finished. There remained no other work necessary to create the means of Atonement. My own Pastor believes that Christ endured the Second Death in order to make Atonement, seeing this as the "payment" for our sins. I have to take issue with that, because there is nothing in Scripture that I see that demands Christ endure going to Hell. Secondly, the Second Death is by definition eternal separation in the Lake of Fire, kind of hard to squeeze that into the time in which Christ hung on the Cross. Third, we have to say that "God was eternally separated from Himself" if we take that view. And lastly, for now anyway (though it would make a great topic of discussion), we see the evidence that His physical death is in view through Communion, where we do not just remember His Blood, but, His body as well, the two comprising His death.

Christ died to save sinners, and faith in Christ is the only thing by which man can be saved. However, Scripture cautions against a nominal embrace of Christ which lacks fruit, and shows no evidence of the new creature that the New Birth always produces.

So again, great advice, I recommend to everyone that wants to know MacArthur's position on Lordship Salvation and what he means by it when he speaks about it, it is best to go straight to the source.

His site, gty.org is a valuable resource for any believer, and while I would point out that MacArthur is a great teacher, he is not infallible. We can only look to the true Source of Biblical Doctrine for such a description, and that is the Word of God.


God bless.

the literal blood issue is a whole other thread worth at least 10 pages of rancor, I happen not to see eye to with MacArthur and most Reform on that one.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

I don't see "classes of Christians" as being the case in the issue of the debate about Lordship Salvation, it revolves more around whether one can be saved yet maintain an un-Christian lifestyle.

One does not need to teach 'lordship" Salvation to teach this.

Who is teaching Lordship Salvation?

Do you even know what it is?

As far as there being "classes of Christians," let me introduce you to those classes:


1 John 2:12-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


That is a Biblical classification of Christians, stated by John the Apostle.

You want to tell me that we do not have immature and mature believers? That we have believers that know Scripture, and those that are woefully ignorant?

You want to tell me that Scripture does not exhort us to grow?

Again, If one reads scripture, and has faith in the true gospel of Christ, and truly repents. The things of God will be evident in a changed life.

My, but that sounds a lot like Lordship Salvation, there. lol

Why, you are demanding that one read Scripture, have faith in the Gospel, and truly repent!

How dare you!



That is the point, my friend...there is more than just saying a prayer.

Adding a doctrine to the word of God to prevent something which may be or is bad does not help the doctrine any, It just is another cause for division.

And equally erroneous is trying to build Doctrine that neglects to bring the Full Counsel of God's Word to the table.

And I am all for dividing those who are believers and those that are not. That way those who are not will have a at least a better chance than hoping that those preaching greasy grace are right, and they do not need to examine themselves.

and can actually be taken to the extreme the other way..

That has been pointed out several times.

You would think we would listen and learn from the mistakes of the jews and catholics.

Who is we?

Please, speak for yourself.

I have never actually been guilty of the errors of Jews and Catholics.

But we keep making the same mistakes..

Who is we?

My friend, there is hope for you, you don't have to keep making the same mistakes.

and add words to scripture or books or doctrines, which are not there.

You do this?

I would certainly like to know, if you are implying I have...where exactly you see me as having done this.

Even if a man of God who got every doctrine right and led many people to God did this, it does not make what he did right. He did not trust God in this area.

That is not even a reasonable statement, lol.

It's "not right for a man of God to get every Doctrine right?"

He wasn't trusting God in doing that, and leading many people to God?

Could you perhaps explain the logic in that?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Eph 2:10~~King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"we might walk" is the aorist active subjunctive of peripatew

With our volition we actively make ourselves available to the works. The subjunctive mood denotes "maybe we will ,maybe we won't"

God doesn't coerce or force the believer to do these works(Divine good.) We make ourselves available for these works or we do not.

Some believers will not have "evidence" for us.

Are we in the faith? "Boy, I sinned and did kinda like it. Maybe I am not really saved." or "Are we trusting in Christ alone and HIS work alone?"

You can keep your grammatical approach and instead deal with the context of the verse you called into question as far as it's context in my post.

No-one is debating the works of believers, we are debating the lack of works of professing believers.


God bless.

 

[crossnote]

i have never been familiar with it. they dont teach it in any of my study groups. i know little of it. i couldnt find a clear explanation of it in the thread. i googled it and it was a can of worms. my conclusion is its just a law of man and i think we have more than enough of them already.

No worry, it was a contention back in the early 90s when you were throwing spit wads at the teachers. lol

 

[P1LGR1M]

the literal blood issue is a whole other thread worth at least 10 pages of rancor, I happen not to see eye to with MacArthur and most Reform on that one.

You don't exactly say what it is you don't see eye to eye on. John stands apart from pretty much every other "Reformed Theologian," which is actually a good thing.

Many Reformed Theologians take an approach unlike that of John, and draw some pretty strange conclusions.

Are you saying that you do believe that Christ's literal blood is what saves us?

Rather than His death in our place?

Atonement was not gained through Christ bleeding...He came to die.

While there are certain teachings of Reformed Theology I agree with, in no way do I affiliate with the System. John barely makes the grade and being called Reformed is highly debatable itself.

And have to get going, so I'll check in at the next appointed time.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No worry, it was a contention back in the early 90s when you were throwing spit wads at the teachers. lol

Oh sure, play the age card...




God bless.

 

[crossnote]

Isn't it interesting how we humans always want to have some sort of "safe guard" from our side of things?? People get saved at a Billy Graham crusade for instance... wow, amazing and wonderful. The angels are singing and the Spirit moves and another soul is added to the number, all are rejoicing!!!

Then human's with our need to find a problem we can control and fix.,we attempt to complicate the pure Gospel in it's simplicity. The receiving as a child this awesome and actually very intricately planned out from ages past, powerful and priceless gift of salvation that Jesus secured for us., we think aahhaaa, we found a flaw!!! These newbies don't get teaching right away so we better FIX THIS before it's too late and they go to hell!

There is not a problem in the way God has planned out Redemption. He started it and He will complete it the same way. Human pride just seeps into everything. Nothing seems to be off limits to human reason.

Yup, just like the 'ol bumper sticker, " If it works. don't fix it ".

 

[crossnote]

You know what I've realized since my salvation and regeneration? Exactly how big a word "believing" truly is in this context, especially these days. I thought I was a Christian for about 5 years before I truly was ready to submit, and I had to lose the use of my dominate arm to even get there. I was raised in and of this world, and was 100% of it no doubt. I really loved the "idea" of Jesus, but I had bills to pay and "real life" to deal with. We are programmed from birth to think if we can't see, taste, feel, smell, or hear it, it's not real and it's drilled into our heads from school, movies, games, music, books, and every other distraction this world throws at us.

It took seeing my first son born before I would even consider there was more to life than what we see, but coming to a place where we truly believe in Jesus in a world where we are bombarded by fantasy from every conceivable outlet and told it's all make believe and the bible is just another "fantasy book", though it is simple, it is anything but easy. I feel God blessed me with a strait up "road to Damascus" experience, and I find it hard to convey that when witnessing "good enough". Don't get me wrong I understand I do nothing and it's all His work through the Holy Spirit, but my point is that just "believing" sounds so easy sometimes yet is anything but. Simple yes, easy not in my experience.

Your comment just brought that to mind and I wanted to share, I was in no way trying to correct, teach, or say there was anything wrong with your comment at all, just kind of adding my point of view to it. Thanks and have a great day.

I'm with you bro on that, been there had that. I usually have in the back of my mind this verse concerning conversions...

Matthew 16:17 (HCSB) And Jesus responded, "Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.

...our eyes must be opened.

 

[crossnote]

You don't exactly say what it is you don't see eye to eye on. John stands apart from pretty much every other "Reformed Theologian," which is actually a good thing.

Many Reformed Theologians take an approach unlike that of John, and draw some pretty strange conclusions.

Are you saying that you do believe that Christ's literal blood is what saves us?

Rather than His death in our place?

Atonement was not gained through Christ bleeding...He came to die.

While there are certain teachings of Reformed Theology I agree with, in no way do I affiliate with the System. John barely makes the grade and being called Reformed is highly debatable itself.

And have to get going, so I'll check in at the next appointed time.


God bless.

like I said the blood issue is for another thread. I know the Reformed Baptists teachings very well and used to email bouts with Phillip Johnson over particular election. John MacArthur is Reformed on the blood issue and of late has embraced the 5 points.I just hope and pray he doesn't drop his dispensational teaching.

 

[JGIG]

I have a problem, because I know this sounds very harsh. It just so happened this particular individual shared with me his liking of Himmler who was the architect of the nazi death camps. Now of all the crimes of the 20th century this ranks among the worst. After this conversation, I did not want to say another word to them.

Now I loved them as I would love anyone, but this is just so evil, so insane and twisted. One particular person at that funeral also held similar political views.

Unfortunately on this issue I am not going to be nice or super-sensitive. So many "christians" think it is about whether people are saved or not saved. What I was talking about is being real about where someone was in their life, and not faking something that they themselves would never hold to.

What would you say to Himmlers widow at his funeral?

Evil does exist and people fall into hell every day. Too often the culture wants a fairy land ending where there is none.

I have been with people who were dying of cancer, and whatever their outlook on life, they appeared to have zero interest in Jesus, or even talking about life issues. It is often a comfort to grieving relatives to hold on to the idea, they might have had a death bed realisation and conversion. Ofcourse for some this might be true, but I doubt very many.

An apology to his brother? For what? Speaking the truth. His brother has now died, and was a regular church attender and had a good heart. I do not think he ever knew his brother to this degree, but we never talked about it. He certainly did not take what I said badly, it might of been a reminder of what he already knew and had experienced over the years.

What it does remind me of, is I never managed to connect properly to this individual, but I doubt that would ever be possible, simply because of the number of shut doors they put up in their life. It would be fantastic to learn that they did reach out to Jesus, but I have no reason to believe anything like this happened.

I am being honest here, and that is all I can be.

To give you another insight, my wife spent 2 years working on an exhibition about the death camps, so I know intimately how evil and barbaric this world was, which made the emotional impact of such words doubly difficult.

The additional information certainly seems to bolster your position, but the Himmlers of the world and the rest of us are who Jesus died for. It's not our job to pre-sort people into 'willing' and 'unwilling', nor 'worthy' or 'unworthy'. No, our job is to share the Gospel led by the Spirit - in love, not judgement.

Even as He hung on the Cross, looking down on those who had nailed Him to it, Jesus loved His executioners well, praying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

An apology to his brother? For what? Speaking the truth.

Originally Posted by PeterJens

. . .

I know a few people who have lived their lives like this, they like the morality but have never understood the walk. At the funeral of one man, I told his brother that he definately held no faith or belief, and to a large degree despised christianity though they liked some of the people. He gave me an odd look, because in his heart he hoped God would look kindly on his brother, even though he also knew what I was saying was true.

Wow. And you wonder why he gave you kind of an odd look. He was probably incredulous that you were speaking words of judgement over his dead brother instead of just loving the living brother well, being there for him as he grieved for and honored his dead brother.

Perhaps it wasn't a lack of faith or belief in or a despising of Christ that the dead brother had as much as your perception of what he believed. Maybe he just rejected your brand of 'walk'. That the living brother held his tongue (though perhaps out of shock) is a testament to his walk - he extended the grace to you that you so coldly withheld from him.

As you say, the living brother has now passed on, so there is no apologizing to him now. Still time for you to rethink how you view and speak of both the living and the dead, however.

-JGIG

 

[P1LGR1M]

like I said the blood issue is for another thread. I know the Reformed Baptists teachings very well and used to email bouts with Phillip Johnson over particular election. John MacArthur is Reformed on the blood issue and of late has embraced the 5 points.I just hope and pray he doesn't drop his dispensational teaching.

Not sure I would call a view that recognizes the "Blood of Christ" as a reference to His death as a "Reformed teaching," more a Biblical teaching.

And it never ceases to amaze me that he and Sproul are friends and attend the same conferences, as well as join up to fight against ecumenical efforts, lol.

Have a recent conference from Ligonier Ministries (I love R'C' Sproul, lol, though like with MacArthur, I don't agree with everything he teaches, but he is still a great teacher, and a good one to refer atheists who need a walking talking expression of Christian logic in motion, lol) where in the Q and A session someone asks about babies going to Hell (which their view of regeneration and Election demands), and not one of them gave a reasonable response. John did best, but I was still disappointed in the response/

Anyway, their views are so diverse in regards to an Eschatological perspective. You'd think John would have straightened him out after all these years, lol.


God bless.

 

[ember]

now I've got to dig in and answer this treatise...joy and happiness...sigh


P1LGR1M;2350405It's not an opinion, it is just the facts.

Why do you think MacArthur consistently refuses to sign documents that unite Protestant and Catholics together?

Because our views are contrary one to the other.

Like I said, you are going to be hard pressed to find a better teacher concerning Sola Fide than MacArthur. While he is basically a Reformed Theologian, his teachings are not obscure as some Reformed Theologians are. I love R.C. Sproul to death, but, Sproul can at times be found to get a little unclear in regards to salvation by Faith Alone.

My guess is that you have never actually heard any of MacArthur's teachings. I recommend "The Gospel According to Jesus" to anyone.


you 'guessed' wrong...I've heard him on the local Christian radio station many times...cause I don't think he's all that does not mean I am in the dark.

How on earth do you think I have an opinion on the matter if I know nothing? I don't operate that way...


Recently, MacArthur came under fire yet again for refusing to sign The Manhattan Declaration.

Here are a few quotes from a response he did in explaining why he refused to sign:


• Instead of acknowledging the true depth of our differences, the implicit assumption (from the start of the document until its final paragraph) is that Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant Evangelicals and others all share a common faith in and a common commitment to the gospel’s essential claims. The document repeatedly employs expressions like “we [and] our fellow believers”; “As Christians, we . . .”; and “we claim the heritage of . . . Christians.” That seriously muddles the lines of demarcation between authentic biblical Christianity and various apostate traditions.


In short, support for The Manhattan Declaration would not only contradict the stance I have taken since long before the original “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” document was issued; it would also tacitly relegate the very essence of gospel truth to the level of a secondary issue. That is the wrong way—perhaps the very worst way—for evangelicals to address the moral and political crises of our time. Anything that silences, sidelines, or relegates the gospel to secondary status is antithetical to the principles we affirm when we call ourselves evangelicals.

well who would sign that then? not sure why you even bring it up?

Now, understand that MacArthur's primary issue with Catholic teaching is on the point of Sola Fide. You would do well to familiarize yourself with the issues before discouraging anyone with false charges. I am sure it is inadvertent, though if you feel you can point out where MacArthur is teaching a works-based salvation...feel free to post what it is you find that in.

oh cut out the false charges business...this is not a court ... I maintain there is no tier system for salvation and you declaring that to be a fact simply demonstrates you are following a man's teaching rather than the Bible

listen up: I NEVER SAID ANYONE WAS TEACHING A WORKS BASED SALVATION...speaking of false claims, maybe you should take care to follow your own advise? I don't know why people think they can make things up and try to put words into other peoples posts...


And I doubt very much that you are going to teach on that...better than MacArthur.

oy






Some people say that about the term Trinity.

And Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

And Communion.

MacArthur didn't really create the term himself, but used that term to respond to critics that charged him with teaching a works-based salvation.

You are doing exactly what caused the need for this issue to be addressed, you are falsely charging him with something that nobody familiar with his teaching can reasonably claim.

oh my goodness...get some sleep...no one died and you are being rather silly as I never said any such things...apparently, you are primed and ready to go off at the slightest indication your pre-rehearsed speech is deemed necessary by your hair trigger nerves

get a grip....please


This is true. However, there are many that run under a false sense of security who not only do not have a Lord...they do not in truth have a Savior. There are many who are perfectly willing to submit to a baby in a manger, but have not submitted to God. The have created a Christ of their own making, and when we understand salvation, we understand that there are evidences of genuine conversion. People that say they are "saved" yet live unchanged lives would do well to study MacArthur's teachings on Lordship salvation.

yeah well, the Bible is also pretty chock full of folks making false gods...so nothing new there

John does a little Lordship Salvation teaching here:


1 John 1:6-7

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Here is a little Lordship Salvation taught by Christ:


Luke 6:46

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]46 [/SUP]And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


As one member pointed our, we don't go to extremes and neglect how one is saved. That is not what is in view. What is in view is the genuine nature of salvation and whether one has been saved, or whether one is like unto those who seemed to be doing things in the Name of the Lord...


Matthew 7:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



...yet they were not in relationship with the Lord through salvation, thus whether He is Lord and SAvior is a moot issue.


God bless.



look...you adhere to the term lordship salvation...and I do not

you have posted at some length and half of it concerns things I never hinted at, never mind actually posted

the problem with having one's feet so firmly planted in another person's theology is that if they fall you fall too

for that matter, you might find yourself defending them in matters where no defense is even needed...


In summation, salvation is not a two tier system and you might get tired of reading that, but that is most likely the main objection anyone would have to the gospel presented a la MacArthur

Mr MacArthur is rather the king of disapproval when it comes to what others believe...and very vocal about it

he is not my teacher even though he does have some good things to say

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who is teaching Lordship Salvation?

Do you even know what it is?

I just made a statement, Did you get offended? WHy? If you were not saying this, then it was not directed to you now was it?

As far as there being "classes of Christians," let me introduce you to those classes:


1 John 2:12-14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


That is a Biblical classification of Christians, stated by John the Apostle.

And? Next time you want to tell me something I already know to support your position. You could at least ask if I knew it or not. Nothing I said was against this.

You want to tell me that we do not have immature and mature believers? That we have believers that know Scripture, and those that are woefully ignorant?

You want to tell me that Scripture does not exhort us to grow?

I never said against that thing at all.

All I said is that I do not need Lordship salvation doctrine to tell me, that, I already had the bible tell me that.

Now, would you like to calm down, and actually read what people say.

My, but that sounds a lot like Lordship Salvation, there. lol

I did not need someone to come up with a doctrine and call it lordship salvation to understand that now did I? Did God come up with this doctrine, or men?

Why, you are demanding that one read Scripture, have faith in the Gospel, and truly repent!

How dare you!

Sorry, I can not take credit for that. Gods word already said it, I was just saying, if we read Gods word. we would know it.

That is the point, my friend...there is more than just saying a prayer.

And you did not need some doctrine written by men to tell you that, Gods word said it quite well.

And equally erroneous is trying to build Doctrine that neglects to bring the Full Counsel of God's Word to the table.

And I am all for dividing those who are believers and those that are not. That way those who are not will have a at least a better chance than hoping that those preaching greasy grace are right, and they do not need to examine themselves.

lol. So we need more than Gods word? You want to be like Jews and catholics who write things outside of scripture ad held these up as by God?

Good like with that, And good luck judging who is saved and who is not. Chances are many you think are saved are not, and people you think are not saved may be, Your not God, you can not read a persons heart. And how dare you think you can

That has been pointed out several times.

Yep so why risk it?

Who is we?

Those who claim to be Gods people.

1. The jews
2. The church (rome)
3/ The church (even after rome split into the protestants, we still make the same mistakes. People are proving it here.

Please, speak for yourself.

I have never actually been guilty of the errors of Jews and Catholics.

Yet here you are justifying a doctrine made by man, based on words outside of scripture.. or if your nnot. You just judged me for nothing.

Who is we?

My friend, there is hope for you, you don't have to keep making the same mistakes.

What mistakes? I do nto listen to men, I will seek guidance, But I will use the word of God to test what they say.

Seems like you want to follow mens words. But hey, there is hope for you. Saul was a Pharisee of Pharisees.

You do this?

I would certainly like to know, if you are implying I have...where exactly you see me as having done this.

I just stated a fact, Have you? Are you following lordship salvation? Then it would seem you are. If your following Antimonialism, or any doctrine of men, you are.. I do not now if you are or not, but you sure seem to have a guilty complex. why is that?

That is not even a reasonable statement, lol.

Oh its not.

A man gets scripture right, then makes up some doctrine based on things which are not supported in scripture. or supported weakly but not emphatically. And he claims this doctrine is from God. And that's not reasonable?

It's "not right for a man of God to get every Doctrine right?"

I never said that, there you go misreading again.

 

[Goodness11]

Basically it was a teaching that was against those that claimed "when I got saved, Jesus was my Savior not necessarily my Lord". Either way it is a strawman argument, because Jesus comes as awhole, ...when He saves He saves as Lord and Savior, you can't cut Him in half. Some only want Him as Savior, not as Lord...a pipe dream.

Wow, that is really confusing. Obviously this Lordship Salvation isn't really taking traction.

 

[Willie-T]

Wow, that is really confusing. Obviously this Lordship Salvation isn't really taking traction.

Well, in reality, many of us don't seem to give much importance to the Lordship part of our Salvation, or our lives and actions and even our posts here would show a whole lot more of Jesus than most of us demonstrate.

 

[ember]

News Flash: I do not credibility to posts that contain length as a credential to whatever may be contained therein

In fact, it becomes a chore to answer, but, here I go again


P1LGR1M;2350417There is no change of God's demand of obedience to His will in any Age.

did someone state there was? while on the topic though, has anyone ever come up perfect? keep that thought

The Promise of the Spirit is an especially poor excuse to promote what some call "Greasy Grace," lol:

sorry...no lol from me...two tier salvation with a side of law and some self righteous gravy please...is that funny too?

Consider:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


It is because of the eternal indwelling of God that we are able to be in obedience to God. While we all start out as babes and our level of obedience grows as we do, that is not what the Lord is teaching in the text above. In view are those who are contrary to the will of God, and refuse to come under obedience to Christ.

have you read about 'walking in the light'? pretty much states how we do it....if someone refuse to allow direction via the Spirit of God, they are in rebellion...if they are in rebellion, the NT says that is as the sin of witchcraft...which leads me to ask, if they are thumbing their nose at God, they are not walking in the light then, are they?

see the merry-go-round with the false premise platform from which your argument springs?


Should have stopped at "Yes...all of the Bible is valid."

I would ask you to show one teaching that associates an "Intermediary Human Being."

I have no idea where you get that thought from...unless, like the last person I responded to, you are richly embellishing my post or reading into my post and or adding to my post...you decide and let me know...oh wait...that was you!
And to think that salvation has nothing to do "with what we do" isn't reflected in Christ's teachings. When the Disciples were commissioned to go out and preach the Gospel of Christ they were told...


Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

and yet John writes about what to do if we sin...and Pauls' entire construct is about GRACE....I guess that may too simple to grasp...like walking in the light


While we learn how to come under obedience to the teachings of Christ (which basically encompasses all teachings of Scripture) that doesn't mean that we will not. And some "believers" never come under obedience to Christ.

Jesus never told us to keep the law...probably because no one can do so...however, as God loves, and forgives, we are to forgive and to love...which is the end result of keeping the law..you blinked and missed it I guess

no fellah....please don't now state you are not legalistic cause you just basically defined it

We can question the genuine nature of their profession of faith. And we should definitely question our own profession if we see no growth.

well, maybe we can start with you? I'm not sure you are saved if you believe you have to do something to ensure that you are...see how it goes?


God bless.