LORDSHIP SALVATION

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

That is not what Scripture teaches.

We are not saved through death, we are saved by receiving Life.

You are teaching that salvation is an effort effected by men, and that is not the case.

Man is not even aware of sin until enlightened by God. Apart from the intervention of God no man will be saved. Salvation is wholly of Holy God, there is nothing that a man contributes to salvation, That means he does not contribute to salvation imparted, and he does not contribute to maintaining his salvation.

God bless.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 3, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

You said;

I replied:

eternally-gratefull said:

You replied;

P1LGR1M said:

to which I replied;

eternally-gratefull said:

Because I was not discussing lordship salvation. Or anythign about it, I just made a statement, I do not need the doctrine of lordship salvation to KNOW about classes of christians, or that a person can not be saved, yet have no change whatsoever in his life, is true.

And

eternally-gratefull said:

To let you know I already believed there were classes of Christians, YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME)

to which you replied.

P1LGR1M said:

Which is quite laughable to be honest, Because I never stated you were teaching lordship salvation. I JUST MADE A STATEMENT THAT I DO NOT NEED LORDSHIP SALVATION TO KNOW THOSE TRUTHS. Yet you did not stop here, you continued in your games.. and still refused to admit you made a mistake..

so do you need more proof? I can continue to prove what you have been doing?

Or are you willing to eat some humble pie and admit you misunderstood what I was saying?

so... DUDE!!!

Do you want to continue sinking in a hole because you refuse to figure out what is being discussed with you and I. Or continue digging a deeper hole.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 3, 2015

Hoffco said:

Are you perfect? Thats Gods guideline.

Anything that falls short of that line missed the mark (rom 3: 23)

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

crossnote said:

As I said, nothing wrong when a view changes for the better.

And I am not asking for personal beefs you have with MacArthur, as I am not one who thinks all he teaches is correct.

What I am asking you to provide is a link that presents what you think is false teaching.

In this thread it was implied and even stated point blank that he teaches works-based salvation. You call me a cult follower because I am defending MacArthur, when in fact that is not the point. The point is that it is wrong to bear false witness, especially when the motivation is hatred because MacArthur, in series such as Strange Fire and Charismatic Chaos...points out what he perceives as error.

I am in agreement with everything I have ever heard him teach concerning Charismatics, and I will add that John MacArthur does not teach that we hate charismatics because of the address of the error. Rather, he likens gossip as worse than babbling, lol.

But who wants to hear preaching about gossip...right?

Who wants to hear preaching that it is wrong to bear false witness.

Who wants to hear preaching that Christians have a mandate for obedience to God?

Which brings us right back to Lordship Salvation, lol.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Of course I am perfect, have you never read...

Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

...?

But, we need to clarify context, don't we, lol.

Positionally I am perfect, and that is because of imputed righteousness, and a standing before God which is based on the Sacrifice of Christ...not works which I have done.

But, that does not mean that because my sins have been forgiven in completion, for ever...that I have license to sin or that I "let go and let God."

That is one of the points: if we go to extremes either way, we are not presenting a balanced view of Biblical Doctrine.

So we have to distinguish, when we speak about works of the believer...which side of regeneration we are talking about. Those who preach a Christianity that denies works in the lives of believers teach another gospel, because we were not saved to a fruitless salvation.

So positionally, I am perfect, but that is an eternal perspective, and does not deny a temporal perspective that reveals I am still in unredeemed flesh and still fallible, and still in a journey of growth that God Himself is Personally overseeing.

God bless.

ember · Nov 3, 2015

crossnote said:

uh huh

he said exactly the same thing to me and I never posted that he teaches a works based salvation either

I think it's time to just talk about what lordship salvation actually is, because the proponents are basically trying to keep us on a merry-go-round so that we never get down to the nitty gritty details of why it is a false doctrine

you cannot hold a discussion with a person who constantly posts false things about the conversation and then accuses you of making false allegations

it's a tactic that is common when you ask questions that they cannot answer or point out that what they believe is actually a man made doctrine and not even in scripture

some might even call it a smokescreen

crossnote · Nov 3, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

I said you were acting LIKE a cult follower.

I looked over the Statement you posted and to me it can be summed up whether one is born again or not. Those who are born again, because they have God's Spirit actively working in them will not fall on the side of easy believism but will grow more into Christ's image.
Those without the Spirit will have themselves as Lord.

ember · Nov 3, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

see...here is something to take note of

in order to AVOID questions, we get the smart alecky answer "of course I am perfect"...and then basically the rest is scritpure that we know and believe

however, the twist, is that if we are perfect in Christ, then what is this lordship salvation all about?

in the nest breath, he tells us that does not mean all sins are forgiven...so basically we do have revolving door salvation in another form

rinse and repeat ad nauseum

ember · Nov 3, 2015

In the last 15 years or so, justification by faith has once again been brought to the forefront of theological debate. In John MacArthur’s 1988 book entitled The Gospel According to Jesus, the views set forth encompass all that is held by the proponents of Lordship Salvation. Paul Holloway, Pastor of Candlelight Bible Church in Houston, Texas, has done an exceptional job of summarizing the key points on faith as pertains to justification set forth by MacArthur in the above-mentioned title.

He says[SUP]1[/SUP]:
“MacArthur writes that faith ‘encompasses obedience,’[SUP]2 [/SUP]and that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’[SUP]3[/SUP] Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith,’ [SUP]4 [/SUP]being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.’[SUP]5[/SUP] Thus any ‘concept of faith that excludes obedience’[SUP]6[/SUP] must be rejected because obedience is ‘indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing.’[SUP]7[/SUP] In fact, ‘the character of true faith’ is nothing less than the ‘higher righteousness’ of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11.[SUP]8[/SUP] MacArthur even suggests that obedience is ‘synonymous with’ faith.[SUP]9[/SUP] And he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, ‘To believe’ is ‘to obey.’[SUP]10”

[/SUP]
The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, clearly differentiates between faith and works saying, “But to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (Rom. 4:5) and, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” (Rom. 3:28). If God, through Paul, draws a distinction, we ought also to do likewise.
Concurrence with the Scripture is their first false claim but there is yet another. Lordship Salvation proponents also say that their views harmonize with church history and especially reformation history. But they actually do not.
SOURCE

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Yes, I will keep sinking myself in deeper and deeper, lol, but, I will have to come back to this, have to get going.

In the meantime, you can reconcile your stumbling over yourself here:

Apparently you do not understand you are speaking about Lordship Salvation, and you are being negative about it, and that is as humorous as your statement here, lol.

Not sure why you think you don't need the doctrine of Lordship Salvation to know about classes of Christians equates to implying that Lordship Salvation is something different.

Yeah, you just made a statement, and it is contradictory.

It's like saying "I don't need the Doctrine of Salvation to know that Jesus saves."

The Doctrine of Lordship Salvation is addressing exactly what I state:

The false charge that a two-tier system is created is, well, to use terms you might understand there chief...bogus.

In view is genuine salvation opposed to false profession.

But the bottom line is you could care less. You are more interested in justifying yourself than actually discussing the issue.

So here it is again:

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

I would agree with that, the term never has to arise, but, that does not mean we denigrate those who use it to address nominal Christianity, which plagues the Church.

And we can look at what Christians are loyal to and see this is true.

And here is an interesting statement of yours:

There is no such thing as hyper grace? Actually...there is.

And that is what Lordship Salvation addresses.

So continue trying to justify your position against Lordship Salvation, and I will come back to this post and address it in detail, as well as any other comments you would like to add.

I am in fact digging a hole, but, the hole is not for me.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

ember said:

You are ridiculous, lol.

It's not a smart alecky answer, simply a Biblical truth.

And you can quote where I say not all sins are forgiven, lol.

You are a false witness and unprepared to handle the Word of God because of your ignorance. You can continue your rabbit trail attacks, just keep in mind that the more you say, the more likely you will say something stupid, and I don't have a problem exposing that.

You have been found to be dishonest, first saying you were not saying MacArthur is works-based, then saying he is.

You sure you want to Continue this?

God bless.

ember · Nov 3, 2015

Here is what John MacArthur teaches...contrary to some of the things being posted here. MacArthur really has his own version of what salvation is.

The main problem with MacArthur's presentation can be summed up like this:

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So in John MacArthur’s first quote, he says that one must be willing to forsake everything and even be willing to die for Jesus to receive salvation. Notice he is not saying that this is the attitude of believers after they have been saved; he is saying one must have this attitude in order to be saved in the first place. In his second quote, John MacArthur says for a person to be saved, they must resolve to have implicit obedience and fully surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Again, he is not saying that this should and would be the attitude of those who have been saved, but it is the attitude one must have in order to be saved in the first place.

In MacArthur’s third quote, he says that saving faith is a “commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost.” If someone doesn’t commit to leave all their sin, then they cannot be saved by Jesus Christ. And lastly, in his book “Hard to Believe” MacArthur says that if anyone wants to be a Christian they HAVE to face three commands; deny himself, take up his cross, and follow him. So these three things have to be addressed BEFORE one can be saved and become a child of God. They are prerequisites to salvation; without which, if a man does not commit to, he cannot be saved and will die in his sins.

Now you’re probably thinking, “What’s wrong with what John MacArthur has said? After all, a lot of these things are mentioned in the New Testament, both in the gospels and in the Epistles.” The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So according to Lordship Salvation, one must be willing to forsake everything, be willing to die for Jesus, resolve to have implicit obedience, fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ, commit to leave all sin, follow Jesus at all cost, AND have faith in what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

Lordship Salvation, in essence, requires a sinner to do what he is unable to do. He must do and commit to do all these things in order to receive the salvation Jesus offers, even before he has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. The salvation Jesus offers is no longer a free gift to be received; it is a gift to be meritoriously achieved (earned by merit).

SOURCE

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

ember said:

Great, now quote MacArthur confusing context as your source does.

Show one quote that MacArthur ascribes salvific value to works we do.

The point is simple, one made by James:

James 1:22

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Two different perspectives between Paul and James, because one speaks in regards to eternal perspective, whereas the other speaks in regards to the temporal, and James' point is those who say they are believers yet do nothing that evidences that deceive themselves. This is why the Reformers say we are saved by faith, but not saved by faith that is alone (absent of works).

One deals with how one is saved, one deals with what happens after salvation.

So you have not answered me. You are a charismatic? You hate Cessationism because it conflicts with what you want to believe?

So you go around bearing false witness against someone who, unlike you, presents a Biblical Basis for why he rejects Charismatic Doctrine and Practice?

Please answer.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

ember said:

Here is what John MacArthur teaches...contrary to some of the things being posted here. MacArthur really has his own version of what salvation is.

The main problem with MacArthur's presentation can be summed up like this:

The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So in John MacArthur’s first quote, he says that one must be willing to forsake everything and even be willing to die for Jesus to receive salvation. Notice he is not saying that this is the attitude of believers after they have been saved; he is saying one must have this attitude in order to be saved in the first place. In his second quote, John MacArthur says for a person to be saved, they must resolve to have implicit obedience and fully surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Again, he is not saying that this should and would be the attitude of those who have been saved, but it is the attitude one must have in order to be saved in the first place.

In MacArthur’s third quote, he says that saving faith is a “commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost.” If someone doesn’t commit to leave all their sin, then they cannot be saved by Jesus Christ. And lastly, in his book “Hard to Believe” MacArthur says that if anyone wants to be a Christian they HAVE to face three commands; deny himself, take up his cross, and follow him. So these three things have to be addressed BEFORE one can be saved and become a child of God. They are prerequisites to salvation; without which, if a man does not commit to, he cannot be saved and will die in his sins.

Now you’re probably thinking, “What’s wrong with what John MacArthur has said? After all, a lot of these things are mentioned in the New Testament, both in the gospels and in the Epistles.” The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved.

So according to Lordship Salvation, one must be willing to forsake everything, be willing to die for Jesus, resolve to have implicit obedience, fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ, commit to leave all sin, follow Jesus at all cost, AND have faith in what Jesus has done for us on the cross.

Lordship Salvation, in essence, requires a sinner to do what he is unable to do. He must do and commit to do all these things in order to receive the salvation Jesus offers, even before he has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. The salvation Jesus offers is no longer a free gift to be received; it is a gift to be meritoriously achieved (earned by merit).

SOURCE

More false witness. Anyone who is familiar with MacArthur knows he is consistent in his teaching. And that is that we are saved by grace through faith alone.

And I guess you feel that large font makes what you post more valid?

Now, where are the quotes from MacArthur or any Lordship Salvation teacher that show it is works-based?

I have posted MacArthur's own teaching in regards to it...address that. Rather than find others who have a beef with Macarthur, lol.

God bless.

ember · Nov 3, 2015

you are being very untruthful and dodging the actual issue

the actual issue, is that MacArthur confuses how a saved person responds with how an unsaved person respond

he reverses the process

stop the red herring diversion of trying to say we are saying he teaches a works based gospel..NO ONE has said that and you keep repeating it in order to cover up what I am now exposing

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

ember said:

In the last 15 years or so, justification by faith has once again been brought to the forefront of theological debate. In John MacArthur’s 1988 book entitled The Gospel According to Jesus, the views set forth encompass all that is held by the proponents of Lordship Salvation. Paul Holloway, Pastor of Candlelight Bible Church in Houston, Texas, has done an exceptional job of summarizing the key points on faith as pertains to justification set forth by MacArthur in the above-mentioned title.

He says[SUP]1[/SUP]:
“MacArthur writes that faith ‘encompasses obedience,’[SUP]2 [/SUP]and that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’[SUP]3[/SUP] Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith,’ [SUP]4 [/SUP]being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.’[SUP]5[/SUP] Thus any ‘concept of faith that excludes obedience’[SUP]6[/SUP] must be rejected because obedience is ‘indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing.’[SUP]7[/SUP] In fact, ‘the character of true faith’ is nothing less than the ‘higher righteousness’ of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11.[SUP]8[/SUP] MacArthur even suggests that obedience is ‘synonymous with’ faith.[SUP]9[/SUP] And he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, ‘To believe’ is ‘to obey.’[SUP]10”

[/SUP]
The Apostle Paul, on the other hand, clearly differentiates between faith and works saying, “But to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (Rom. 4:5) and, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” (Rom. 3:28). If God, through Paul, draws a distinction, we ought also to do likewise.
Concurrence with the Scripture is their first false claim but there is yet another. Lordship Salvation proponents also say that their views harmonize with church history and especially reformation history. But they actually do not.
SOURCE

By the way, all I am getting is a blank page for the source.

Not sure if that is on my end or an error in the post, but I would like both links (both are blank).

God bless.

ember · Nov 3, 2015

you are the one who is falsifying...you seem to think the more you say it, the more it will obscure the facts

I posted MacArthur's OWN word in those excerpts

He has revised his book on lordship salvation 3 times...why do you suppose that is?

ember · Nov 3, 2015

works fine for me

does it matter, since you are denying the truth without even examing the evidence?

ember · Nov 3, 2015

Now salvation is not a process...Christ has already completed the process and we accept what He has done on our behalf and that is what makes us righteous in the Father's eyes. What occurs after salvation, is called sanctification. We do not instantly become 100% followers of Christ any more than the disciples did.

Salvation is a gift that we water and we grow...we are not suddenly aware of all that God wants to do in us...YET...MacArthur seems to think we must have complete knowledge of what we shall become in order to become.

That's not even possible

John MacArthur champions Lordship salvation in his recent book, The Gospel According to Jesus. He attacks dispensationalists in general and Chafer, Hodges, and Ryrie in particular for "wrongly dividing the Word of Truth" (p. 197). "No one can come to Christ on any other term" than full commitment (p. 197). In his book, The Parables of the Kingdom, MacArthur writes that "there is a transaction made to purchase salvation, but it's not with money or good works.

The transaction is this: You give up all you have for all He has" (p. 108). How does one receive salvation? "You give up all that you are and receive all that He is . . . A person becomes saved when he is willing to abandon everything he has to affirm, that Christ is the Lord of his life" (p. 109).

SOURCE

P1LGR1M · Nov 3, 2015

ember said:

All you are exposing is great ignorance of a great many things.

Are you a Charismatic or not? You say I am dodging, I have responded to everything.

And I have suggested you are a disgruntled Charismatic with a vendetta, and that is why you are bearing false witness.

You lied about not charging MacArthur as works-based, now you mount a full attempt to prove that.

ember said:

You are not going to be able to do that. You cannot quote MacArthur teaching in opposition to Sola Fide, so you might as well give it up.

And have to get going, so will get back to this when I can.

God bless.

LORDSHIP SALVATION

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